Blood Atonement

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 18 2004, 11:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 18 2004, 11:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 10:48 AM

Maureen,

You posted the names of two people claiming that they did indeed participate in blood atonement. I'm curious as to what evidence you have that they did particpate. I know of no evidence and have never heard that there was any.

Gary Gilmore:

In October of the same year Gilmore was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death. Offered a choice as to the mode of execution, he opted to be shot. Both victims had been Mormon, and, in the opinion of his brother Mikal, Gary exercised his choice in knowing fulfillment of the Mormon doctrine of Blood Atonement. 1

Notes and References

1. Norman Mailer, The Executioner's Song, 1979

http://www.lib.latrobe.edu.au/AHR/archive/...97/petch.html#1

Rosmos Anderson:

<span style='color:blue'>THE STORY OF THE MORMONS - FROM THE DATE OF THEIR ORIGIN TO THE YEAR 1901

by William Alexander Linn

CHAPTER IX.

BLOOD ATONEMENT:

John D. Lee, who says that this doctrine was "justified by all the people," gives full particulars of another instance. Among the Danish converts in Utah was Rosmos Anderson, whose wife had been a widow with a grown daughter. Anderson desired to marry his step-daughter also, and she was quite willing; but a member of the Bishop's council wanted the girl for his wife, and he was influential enough to prevent Anderson from getting the necessary consent from the head of the church. Knowing the professed horror of the church toward the crime of adultery, Anderson and the young woman, at one of the meetings during the "Reformation," confessed their guilt of that crime, thinking that in this way they would secure permission to marry. But, while they were admitted to rebaptism on their confession, the coveted permit was not issued and they were notified that to offend would be to incur death. Such a charge was very soon laid against Anderson (not against the girl), and the same council, without hearing him, decided that he must die. Anderson was so firm in the Mormon faith that he made no remonstrance, simply asking half a day for preparation. His wife provided clean clothes for the sacrifice, and his executioners dug his grave. At midnight they called for him, and, taking him to the place, allowed him to kneel by the grave and pray. Then they cut his throat, "and held him so that his blood ran into the grave." His wife, obeying instructions, announced that he had gone to California.*

*"Mormonism Unveiled," p. 282

http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Mormons/00000075.htm

M.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my request. I can google mormonism unveiled anytime. My question should have been, what credible evidence do you have that blood atonement was practiced. Unsourced quotes in Mormonism Unveiled don't quite do it for me.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 02:14 PM

what credible evidence do you have that blood atonement was practiced. Unsourced quotes in Mormonism Unveiled don't quite do it for me.

Who needs credible evidence when it is just confirming what you already know to be true?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 01:14 PM

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my request. I can google mormonism unveiled anytime.

By all means, google away.

My question should have been, what credible evidence do you have that blood atonement was practiced. Unsourced quotes in Mormonism Unveiled don't quite do it for me.

And what's wrong with Mormonism Unveiled?

M.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Aug 18 2004, 01:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Aug 18 2004, 01:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 02:14 PM

what credible evidence do you have that blood atonement was practiced. Unsourced quotes in Mormonism Unveiled don't quite do it for me.

Who needs credible evidence when it is just confirming what you already know to be true?

Ahh, a mind reader.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 18 2004, 01:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 18 2004, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 01:14 PM

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my request. I can google mormonism unveiled anytime.

By all means, google away.

My question should have been, what credible evidence do you have that blood atonement was practiced. Unsourced quotes in Mormonism Unveiled don't quite do it for me.

And what's wrong with Mormonism Unveiled?

M.

You don't know? Really?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 05:08 PM

And what's wrong with Mormonism Unveiled?

M.

You don't know? Really?

Kevin - Are you stalling? :)

M.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Kevin+Aug 18 2004, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kevin @ Aug 18 2004, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Maureen@Aug 18 2004, 01:29 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 01:14 PM

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my request. I can google mormonism unveiled anytime.

By all means, google away.

My question should have been, what credible evidence do you have that blood atonement was practiced. Unsourced quotes in Mormonism Unveiled don't quite do it for me.

And what's wrong with Mormonism Unveiled?

M.

You don't know? Really?

OH...OH....OH...I KNOW!!!!

"It's anti"(typical canned response to anything that doesn't say warm fuzzy things about the LDS church). I get a gold star sticker for getting the answer right. Yay for me!

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 18 2004, 07:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 18 2004, 07:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Aug 18 2004, 05:08 PM

And what's wrong with Mormonism Unveiled?

M.

You don't know? Really?

Kevin - Are you stalling? :)

M.

No.

[Matt]

Kevin, it would be worthwhile you being able to cite a valid refutation of Mormonism Unveiled.

Merely saying: "Well, I just know it's wrong!" is not a good way to debate it. By all means, if you have something you can point to or to cite, please do.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Matt@Aug 19 2004, 03:05 PM

Kevin, it would be worthwhile you being able to cite a valid refutation of Mormonism Unveiled.

Merely saying: "Well, I just know it's wrong!" is not a good way to debate it. By all means, if you have something you can point to or to cite, please do.

What about "Well, FARMS says it's wrong!" That's a valid refutation, isn't it? How about linking to a Jeff Lindsay webpage? Does that count?

[Kevin]

Originally posted by bat+Aug 19 2004, 04:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Aug 19 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Matt@Aug 19 2004, 03:05 PM

Kevin, it would be worthwhile you being able to cite a valid refutation of Mormonism Unveiled.

Merely saying: "Well, I just know it's wrong!" is not a good way to debate it. By all means, if you have something you can point to or to cite, please do.

What about "Well, FARMS says it's wrong!" That's a valid refutation, isn't it? How about linking to a Jeff Lindsay webpage? Does that count?

Bat, do you recall ever seeing me post referring to FARMS or Jeff Lindsay? Ever?

Matt, I'm stalling. Shhh. Don't tell Maureen.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Kevin@Aug 19 2004, 04:43 PM

Bat, do you recall ever seeing me post referring to FARMS or Jeff Lindsay? Ever?

Nope, it was a general criticism, not directed at you.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by bat+Aug 19 2004, 05:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Aug 19 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Aug 19 2004, 04:43 PM

Bat, do you recall ever seeing me post referring to FARMS or Jeff Lindsay? Ever?

Nope, it was a general criticism, not directed at you.

Ok, but have you ever seen anybody on this board post referring to FARMS or Jeff Lindsay? If so, how often have you seen such?

Even so, does the fact that one might utilize research of others in arriving at their opinions in and of itself automatically invalidate those opinions? Do you find specifically or generally that the information pubished by Farms or found on Jeff's site is unreliable or deceitful?

[Guest bat]

Ok, but have you ever seen anybody on this board post referring to FARMS or Jeff Lindsay? If so, how often have you seen such?

Yes, but not recently. It used to be a lot more frequent. Remember that I have been here a lot longer than you. I'd do a search, but the board has been purged so many times, it wouldn't do any good.

Even so, does the fact that one might utilize research of others in arriving at their opinions in and of itself automatically invalidate those opinions?

You might ask that question of the apologists *cough*Tom Murphy*cough*

Do you find specifically or generally that the information pubished by Farms or found on Jeff's site is unreliable or deceitful?

Mostly I find FARMS/FAIR/Lindsey rely too much on their Ad Hoc speculations, and too seldom apply Occam's Razor to their arguments. The term I would use would not be "unreliable" or "deceitful", but "useless". Do you need examples? I love ripping into half baked apologetic nonsense. I'll even let you pick the topic.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Kevin+Aug 19 2004, 06:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kevin @ Aug 19 2004, 06:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bat@Aug 19 2004, 05:12 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Aug 19 2004, 04:43 PM

Bat, do you recall ever seeing me post referring to FARMS or Jeff Lindsay? Ever?

Nope, it was a general criticism, not directed at you.

Ok, but have you ever seen anybody on this board post referring to FARMS or Jeff Lindsay? If so, how often have you seen such?

Even so, does the fact that one might utilize research of others in arriving at their opinions in and of itself automatically invalidate those opinions? Do you find specifically or generally that the information pubished by Farms or found on Jeff's site is unreliable or deceitful?

Matt, I'm stalling. Shhh. Don't tell Maureen.

Thanks for the confession Kevin; even so, could you answer the question. In your opinion what is wrong with the book Mormonism Unveiled?

M.

[huma17]

Hey bat, here's a topic: Tom Nibley's comments on the book Covering Up the Black Hole in the Book of Mormon by the Tanners?

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by huma17@Aug 20 2004, 09:06 AM

Hey bat, here's a topic: Tom Nibley's comments on the book Covering Up the Black Hole in the Book of Mormon by the Tanners?

I haven't read it. Are you asking me to defend Gerald and Sandra Tanner?

[huma17]

Well, basically yes. You said you loved ripping into apologetic nonsense, and said it was useless. I want to see you 'rip' into T. Nibley's 'nonsense', when he discusses their book.

The topic, I suppose, would be: plagerism from the Bible, and/or BoM compared to the Bible. Something like that.

[Matt]

In your opinion what is wrong with the book Mormonism Unveiled?

Umm... it unveils Mormonism?

[Matt]

Tom Nibley? Is he of the Hugh B. "I am an expert, darn you" Nibley clan?

[huma17]

Yes, his son.

By the way, you don't need to be an 'expert' to see and understand the truth about the obvious.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by huma17@Aug 20 2004, 02:11 PM

Well, basically yes.  You said you loved ripping into apologetic nonsense, and said it was useless.  I want to see you 'rip' into T. Nibley's 'nonsense', when he discusses their book.

You want me to write a book that reviews a book that reviews a book?

The topic, I suppose, would be: plagerism from the Bible, and/or BoM compared to the Bible.  Something like that.

Oh, I can't argue that. I think that it is far more likely that a dead person came down from Kolob and told Joseph Smith that there were gold or tumbaga plates that he translated (but not actually translated, more like received a revelation by looking at magic rocks in his hat) and came up with the Book of Mormon which has some similarities to the bible, than the likliness that he plagarised from it.