The So-called Adam-god Doctrine

[Ray]

Some people still seem to have trouble understanding the so-called Adam-God doctrine, so I reveal what I know about that here.

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, about whom holy men have written and spoken--He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.

Notice that Brigham Young is referring to Adam as Michael here. Notice further down in Brigham Young’s discourse that he says:

…the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael…

We in the Church refer to our heavenly Father as Eloheim, and our Lord Jesus Christ as Yahovah, or Jehovah. We in the Church also teach that both our heavenly Father and our Lord had significant roles in the creation of the earth, but since not a lot is mentioned about Michael or Adam’s role it is a little less understood.

Think for a minute about what we do know about Adam. Is Adam the Father of our flesh? Yes, as Eloheim is the Father of our spirits. We all lived in the celestial kingdom with our heavenly Father before we came to earth, and we all come into this world through Adam. Is Adam now God? Yes. Does he have a position of prominence above us all? I believe so. Is our Lord Jesus Christ also God? Yes. Does our Lord also have a position of prominence above us all? Most definitely. The thought that Adam is ‘the only God with whom we have to do’ must then have some significance other than the thought that Adam is the only God with whom we have ANYTHING to do.

The complete doctrine is found in the Journal of Discourses volume 1, pages 50-51, beginning with the paragraph that reads: “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth…”

[Jason]

Ray,

First, there are like twenty other sermons of Brigham Youngs, not including the old lecture at the veil, that further define what Young meant. You're only looking at the first sermon.

Second, some mormons interpret the "Eloheim, Jehovah, Michael" to mean "God the Great-Grandfather, God the Grandfather, and then God the Father". Not that Im saying that's what Young meant, but some Fundamentalists interpret that in that way.

[Mark]

Hi Ray, what about the quoate that Brigham said that "Adam is the Father of our Spirits"

I'll give you reference when I get back form vacation.

Mark John 1:12

[Guest bat]

Is this hymn that was published by the mormons in 1856 still in today's hymn books?

We believe in our God the great Prince of His race,

The Archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days,

Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,

Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.

We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ, who, in love

To his brethren and sisters, came down from above

To die to redeem them from death, and to teach

To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

[Ray]

Originally posted by bat@Aug 7 2004, 08:56 PM

Is this hymn that was published by the mormons in 1856 still in today's hymn books?

We believe in our God the great Prince of His race,

The Archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days,

Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,

Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.

We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ, who, in love

To his brethren and sisters, came down from above

To die to redeem them from death, and to teach

To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

Jason,

A reference would be helpful. You don't expect me to just take your word for it, do you?

Mark,

I'd appreciate a reference from you too.

bat,

Do you know the name of that song? I'm guessing there is another verse between the verses you mentioned.

[Jason]

Ray,

Here you go buddy:

http://www.helpingmormons.org/TLC_Manti/Go...ion-id-Adam.htm

As an aside, Im leaving the board, and Im going to give it a few days to rap up any lingering discussions. This should end my comments on this thread.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 10 2004, 07:08 PM

bat,

Do you know the name of that song?   I'm guessing there is another verse between the verses you mentioned.

It is called "We Believe In Our God."

What is the verse between verses?

We believe in our God the great Prince of His race,

The Archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days,

Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,

Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.

Brigham Young really didn't teach that Adam is G-d,

The "antis" tell you lies and want you to n-d,

Even if he did, to this we must not concede,

to do so would make the teachings of the prophets less than a weed.

We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ, who, in love

To his brethren and sisters, came down from above

To die to redeem them from death, and to teach

To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

[Guest bat]

I think this is the whole thing:

We believe in our God, the great Prince of his race,

The Archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days,

Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord as is plain,

Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.

We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ, who in love,

To his brethren and sisters, came down from above,

To die to redeem them from death, and to teach

To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

We believe in the Spirit most holy, that's given

From God our great Father, who dwells high in heaven,

To instruct and enlighten, to comfort and cheer-

Tongues, dreams, visions, healings proclaim it is here

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 10 2004, 07:08 PM

Jason,

A reference would be helpful. You don't expect me to just take your word for it, do you?

Does this help?

On June 8, 1873, Brigham Young, in a sermon, which was published in Deseret News on June 14, 1873, said: "We say that Father Adam came here and helped to make the Earth. Who is he? He is Michael, a great Prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim, 'Go ye and make an earth.' What is the great mystery about it? He came and FORMED the EARTH. Adam came here and got it up in shape. The mystery in this, is only to those who are ignorant. Father Adam came here, and then they brought his wife. 'Well,' says one, 'why was Adam called Adam?' He was the first man on the earth, and its FRAMER AND MAKER. He, with the help of his brethren, brought it into existence. Then he said, 'I want my children who are in the Spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an Earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the Spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has,' and where is the mystery?"

[Guest bat]

Jason,

Perhaps you can shed some light on this. Unless I am misreading this, this says that the Adam=G-d doctrine didn't originate from BY, but from Joseph Smith. What is your take on it?

The Prophet on Priesthood.

Adam and the Presidency of the Priesthood.

The Priesthood was first given to Adam; he obtained the First Presidency, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed, as in Gen. 1:26, 27, 28.fn He had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures. Then to Noah, who is Gabriel; he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in his day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven.

Eternity of the Priesthood.

The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years. The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam's authority.

Adam's Place in the Order of the Worthies.

Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael,fn he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family.

The Spirit of Man Eternal.

The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity. Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before my Father. The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him.  (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 3: 387.)

Adam in the Valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman.

I saw Adam in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He called together his children and blessed them with a patriarchal blessing. The Lord appeared in their midst, and he (Adam) blessed them all, and foretold what should befall them to the latest generation. (Ibid, page 388)

[Guest AmeliaM]

Most of it's speculation, but there seems to be some indication that Smith taught that Adam was God, and that Brigham only elaborated on the teaching. Some liken the teaching with the temple ceremony, stating that it was left to Young to expound and promote. (then there are the Fundy's who believe that Smith is the Holy Ghost...)

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by AmeliaM@Aug 10 2004, 08:38 PM

Most of it's speculation, but there seems to be some indication that Smith taught that Adam was God, and that Brigham only elaborated on the teaching. Some liken the teaching with the temple ceremony, stating that it was left to Young to expound and promote. (then there are the Fundy's who believe that Smith is the Holy Ghost...)

"Fundy's"? That isn't a very respectful term. You should use the official term when referring to one of G-d's organizations.

So if BY and JS both taught that Adam was G-d, I think it should still be taught.

[Faerie]

please be mindful when referring to the temple ceremonies...thanks!

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Faerie@Aug 10 2004, 09:08 PM

please be mindful when referring to the temple ceremonies...thanks!

Okay mommy.

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Aug 10 2004, 07:18 PM

Ray,

Here you go buddy:

http://www.helpingmormons.org/TLC_Manti/Go...ion-id-Adam.htm

As an aside, Im leaving the board, and Im going to give it a few days to rap up any lingering discussions. This should end my comments on this thread.

Jason,

Most of those quotes you referenced concern the exalted position of Adam, but they are not saying that Adam was or is Eloheim. Take a look at bat's post, which clearly states that Adam [Michael] is a different person than Eloheim.

You guys don't seem to realize that Adam [Michael] has been given a lot of glory as the Father of all who were to be born on Earth, and yes, through Eve and eventually through Mary, that even makes him a Father to Jesus.

Anyway, you guys will have to get yourselves out of the mess you're in, because I already know that anything I say will not help you see the truth.

[Ray]

Originally posted by bat+Aug 10 2004, 07:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Aug 10 2004, 07:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Aug 10 2004, 07:08 PM

Jason,

A reference would be helpful. You don't expect me to just take your word for it, do you?

Does this help?

On June 8, 1873, Brigham Young, in a sermon, which was published in Deseret News on June 14, 1873, said: "We say that Father Adam came here and helped to make the Earth. Who is he? He is Michael, a great Prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim, 'Go ye and make an earth.' What is the great mystery about it? He came and FORMED the EARTH. Adam came here and got it up in shape. The mystery in this, is only to those who are ignorant. Father Adam came here, and then they brought his wife. 'Well,' says one, 'why was Adam called Adam?' He was the first man on the earth, and its FRAMER AND MAKER. He, with the help of his brethren, brought it into existence. Then he said, 'I want my children who are in the Spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an Earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the Spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has,' and where is the mystery?"

Btw, I'm referring to this post from bat, which clearly states that Adam [Michael] is a different person than Eloheim.

[Guest bat]

I don't see the references that I quoted as being even remotely contradictory to anything that Jason has stated. Please elaborate.

[Ray]

bat,

Please find that sermon so that I can quote from the original record. I'm sure that sermon would have been recorded in the Journal of Discourses, but I can't find one that Brigham Young made on June 8, 1873. Here is a link to all of the Journals from that time period: http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/

[Jason]

Ray,

I love you man, but you didn't read the past the first half of the website. Try again, and pay special attention to the lecture at the veil.

Thanks.

[Ray]

You mean the lecture entitled:

Essentials of the former Endowment Lecture at the Veil, from the Journal of L. John Nuttall:

Heh, that’s probably about as accurate as something written in a journal or diary by the Tanners, or you, and it’s obvious to me that the way you people see things is not an accurate perception of the truth. I have no reason to put my trust in any of you.

The records I’m interested in are those which have been recorded by the Church. Show me those and I will discover the truth that is in them, though I’m still assured that will not help you.

[Ray]

bat,

I decided not to wait for you to get back to me, but I’d still like to know the complete reference for this discourse if you can find it.

On June 8, 1873, Brigham Young, in a sermon, which was published in Deseret News on June 14, 1873, said:

We say that Father Adam came here and helped to make the Earth. Who is he? He is Michael, a great Prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim, 'Go ye and make an earth.'

Adam is referred to as a Father because he became the Father of our flesh, with every person born on Earth coming through him and his wife Eve. Think of what an honor that was, and the glory that gives him according to the order of our families. Adam is a Father to us, Abraham is a Father to us, Jesus is a Father to us, and Eloheim is a Father to us. They’re just Fathers in different ways. Notice that Brigham referred to Adam and Eloheim as different persons.

What is the great mystery about it? He came and FORMED the EARTH. Adam came here and got it up in shape.  The mystery in this is only to those who are ignorant. Father Adam came here, and then they brought his wife.

Where is the mystery? Adam was one of the persons who formed this earth along with his brother Jesus. Jesus is the same person as Jehovah, and Adam is the same person as Michael. While we don’t know another name for the person who became the wife for Adam, we do know her as Eve, and she was also living in heaven before she came to Earth.

[Question:]’Well,’ says one, 'why was Adam called Adam?' [Answer:] He was the first man on the earth, and its FRAMER AND MAKER. He, with the help of his brethren, brought it into existence.

Brigham Young seems to repeat himself a lot, doesn’t he. He has just said the same thing 3 different times, elaborating a little on what Adam had done after Eloheim had told him to do it. Brigham then tells us something else that Eloheim had said to Adam.

Then he said [Eloheim said to Adam], 'I want my children who are in the Spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an Earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the Spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has,' and where is the mystery?"

Again, where is the mystery? You should be able to see that “he” in the above paragraph refers to Eloheim because this person was referring to his children, whereas in the preceding paragraph Brigham was saying that those people were Adam’s brethren.

NEXT…

[Jason]

Heh, that’s probably about as accurate as something written in a journal or diary by the Tanners, or you, and it’s obvious to me that the way you people see things is not an accurate perception of the truth. I have no reason to put my trust in any of you.

The records I’m interested in are those which have been recorded by the Church. Show me those and I will discover the truth that is in them, though I’m still assured that will not help you.

Ray,

Leonard John Nuttall was Brigham Young's private secretary. His records were recorded by the Church, for the Church, are are currently public info. Nuttall died a faithful member of the lds church. His diaries are deposited in Huntington Library in California. They are available on Smith Research Associates' CD ROM, and are reprinted in a small book by Pioneer Press (Ogden Kraut's publishing arm.)

[Ray]

Jason,

I never have claimed to know everything about Adam and Eloheim, and Adam may turn out to be more of a Father to me than I’m currently aware, but I will figure all of this out with the Faith I have in things I know to be true.

What amazes me most is that you have gone from “Mormonism” to “Catholicism”, a religion with similar “challenges” but with less to attain from it and support it. If I didn’t receive personal assurances from God, I would be lost.

Anyway, thanks for trying to “help” me, and thanks for the information, but I’ll rely upon my relationship with God.

[Jason]

What amazes me most is that you have gone from “Mormonism” to “Catholicism”, a religion with similar “challenges” but with less to attain from it and support it.

Obviously I disagree. I feel that there's a vast richness in Catholicism that Mormonism lacks. But to each his own.

[Ray]

Vast richness? Really? Then why haven’t you talked about those things that you think make your religion seem better than ours? It seems like you’ve spent most of your time telling us what you see that is wrong with ours.

Personally, I don’t see living a single life-style as a richer way to live.

Apparently you believe that men will still be men, women will still be women, but families will no longer continue. How is that supposed to work and what is so rich about that?

You also seem to think that God consists of 3 persons, but those 3 persons are not 3 individuals. How do you make sense out of that, and how is that idea better or “richer” than ours? Do you imagine that you’ll be able to give your God a hug? Or walk and talk with Him? Or learn to be like Him, while spending the rest of eternity near Him?

And then there is that one big individual issue... no more personal revelation from God. Apparently you believe that we’re supposed to just read books and rely upon our own brainpower to comprehend the truth, with the Bible as our only link to God. Yet look at the mess the world is in because of that, with so many people unable to “see’ things the same way. What is your answer to that, and how is that “richer” than the explanation we offer?

When you say Faith, you really mean trust, because you don’t believe that God gives us a personal assurance of truth. That to me is the biggest issue, because I see that as the only solution to the problem.