The So-called Adam-god Doctrine

[Jason]

Vast richness? Really? Then why haven’t you talked about those things that you think make your religion seem better than ours? It seems like you’ve spent most of your time telling us what you see that is wrong with ours.

Yes really. I don't talk about it, because nobody's expressed an interest. Im still waiting for some comments on the "polytheism" thread, but for three days now, nobody's had any interest. Besides, this is a "pro-LDS board", as some are constantly reminding.

Personally, I don’t see living a single life-style as a richer way to live.

Some are called for married life, some are called for religious life, some for clergy. We all have our calling, Ray.

Apparently you believe that men will still be men, women will still be women, but families will no longer continue.

It's called the "heavenly family". We're all brothers and sisters. Pray tell me the advantage of a "mormon sealing ceremony" when we'll all be there together anyway.

You also seem to think that God consists of 3 persons, but those 3 persons are not 3 individuals.

How do you make sense out of that, and how is that idea better or “richer” than ours?

It's a cultural and historical legacy that stems from Christianity and greek philosophy. There's much to be learned. The god of Mormonism, on the other hand, is just a man who has "spirit" kids, and apparently underwent 3 hours of boredom every sunday for his entire life on some other planet.

Do you imagine that you’ll be able to give your God a hug? Or walk and talk with Him?

I don't know that God or I will need a hug. As for communcation, Im sure God has his ways.

And then there is that one big individual issue... no more personal revelation from God.

You've apparently missed something somewhere. Catholics (and many protestants for that matter) believe in personal revelation. Just because we don't hear a voice in our heads that begins with "thus saith the Lord" doesn't mean that the Holy Ghost doesn't guide and direct us. I believe that prayer works, don' t you?

Apparently you believe that we’re supposed to just read books and rely upon our own brainpower to comprehend the truth, with the Bible as our only link to God.

Nope.

Yet look at the mess the world is in because of that, with so many people unable to “see’ things the same way.  What is your answer to that, and how is that “richer” than the explanation we offer?

There's a tradition and history there that the "newness" of Mormonism lacks. You may be awe inspired by a rebuilt Nauvoo, but to travel to Rome, or Istanbul offers visitors something that old US frontier cities lack. Furthermore, I believe that mormon theology is rather simplistic, lacking much depth and thought.

When you say Faith, you really mean trust, because you don’t believe that God gives us a personal assurance of truth.

No, I mean faith. I believe that when Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, that he meant it. I believe that when Christ said "Ask and ye shall receive" that he meant it. I asked God to teach me all about his church in a humble prayer offered when I was still a young Mormon Missionary, and I believe that after years of struggle, God has fulfilled that request.

That to me is the biggest issue, because I see that as the only solution to the problem.

Oh, well problem solved.

[Faerie]

I would love to go to Rome and Greece and Jersusalem and take in the rich history of the Catholic church..doesn't detract or minimalize our church's rich history...I don't see a "competition" between the two...I even find awe and inspiration in the rich history and theology of Buddhism, doesn't detract from my faith in the LDS church...

why compete?

[Ray]

Jason,

Heh, after all the discussions we’ve had together, that is the first time you’ve told me that God speaks to you.

I say that God speaks to me too, so now I guess we’ll just have to keep praying for assurances and waiting until we find out for super sure who we’ve really been listening to.

[Ray]

Yes really. I don't talk about it, because nobody's expressed an interest. I’m still waiting for some comments on the "polytheism" thread, but for three days now, nobody's had any interest. Besides, this is a "pro-LDS board", as some are constantly reminding.

…but you think people have been expressing an interest in hearing the negative things you have said about our religion? Why don’t you just praise God as you see Him, or Them, or whatever you think it is that God is? Can’t you just say something positive?

Pray tell me the advantage of a "mormon sealing ceremony" when we'll all be there together anyway.

Yes, we’ll all be there anyway, but you see us being there as single people, while we see us being there as families. You know, men and women, living together, as families are here on Earth. What is so rich about living forever as a single person?

It's a cultural and historical legacy that stems from Christianity and greek philosophy. There's much to be learned. The god of Mormonism, on the other hand, is just a man who has "spirit" kids, and apparently underwent 3 hours of boredom every sunday for his entire life on some other planet.

There you go again with that negative attitude. Can’t you just say something positive about your religion without denigrating ours? Can’t you say something richer than “There’s much to be learned”?

I don't know that God or I will need a hug. As for communication, I’m sure God has his ways.

I fear you greatly underestimate the power of a hug. I hope you hug YOUR family!

There's a tradition and history there that the "newness" of Mormonism lacks. You may be awe inspired by a rebuilt Nauvoo, but to travel to Rome, or Istanbul offers visitors something that old US frontier cities lack. Furthermore, I believe that mormon theology is rather simplistic, lacking much depth and thought.

“Mormonism” embraces Christianity all the way back to the days of Adam, and even before that to a pre-mortal existence. You’re misleading people by saying that it all started in Nauvoo. You’re also misleading people by saying that mormon theology doesn’t consist of much depth and thought. Perhaps you never gave it very much, but I’ve been learning since I became a member 15 years ago and imagine that I could go on learning things forever.

[Jason]

…but you think people have been expressing an interest in hearing the negative things you have said about our religion? Why don’t you just praise God as you see Him, or Them, or whatever you think it is that God is? Can’t you just say something positive?

This is LDS Talk. That means we talk about Mormonism, the good and the bad.

Yes, we’ll all be there anyway, but you see us being there as single people, while we see us being there as families. You know, men and women, living together, as families are here on Earth. What is so rich about living forever as a single person?

No, Catholicism sees us there as a family. As for being single, why do you think that your carnal impulses will be needed in heaven?

There you go again with that negative attitude. Can’t you just say something positive about your religion without denigrating ours? Can’t you say something richer than “There’s much to be learned”?

You're asking my opinion on Mormonism. Im giving it to you.

I fear you greatly underestimate the power of a hug. I hope you hug YOUR family!

Humans may need hugs, but I don't know that God does. Im sure he's more emotionally stable than we are.

You’re misleading people by saying that it all started in Nauvoo.

I didn't. I was comparing Nauvoo to Rome and Istanbul. I also used the term "old US frontier cities" refering to Independence and Kirtland.

You’re also misleading people by saying that mormon theology doesn’t consist of much depth and thought.

It doesn't. Speculation aside, it doesn't take long to understand all there is to know about it. I'd say, less than five years of steady research, and you'll have most of it down.

Perhaps you never gave it very much, but I’ve been learning since I became a member 15 years ago and imagine that I could go on learning things forever.

Learning and depth are different things.

[Ray]

Jason:  I feel that there's a vast richness in Catholicism that Mormonism lacks. But to each his own.

Ray:  Vast richness? Really? Then why haven’t you talked about those things that you think make your religion seem better than ours? It seems like you’ve spent most of your time telling us what you see that is wrong with ours.

Jason:  Yes really. I don't talk about it, because nobody's expressed an interest. I’m still waiting for some comments on the "polytheism" thread, but for three days now, nobody's had any interest. Besides, this is a "pro-LDS board", as some are constantly reminding.

Ray: …but you think people have been expressing an interest in hearing the negative things you have said about our religion? Why don’t you just praise God as you see Him, or Them, or whatever you think it is that God is? Can’t you just say something positive?

Jason: This is LDS Talk. That means we talk about Mormonism, the good and the bad.

Here at LDS Talk we talk about lots of things, not just “Mormonism”. Surely you must have noticed that. Some of the issues we’ve talked about that are associated with “Mormonism” are also associated with other Christian religions, giving you plenty of opportunities to discuss your perspective while focusing on the positive aspects of your religion and ours. But that was never on your agenda, was it.

Ray: Personally, I don’t see living a single life-style as a richer way to live. 

Apparently you believe that men will still be men, women will still be women, but families will no longer continue. How is that supposed to work and what is so rich about that?

Jason:  Some are called for married life, some are called for religious life, some for clergy. We all have our calling, Ray.  It's called the "heavenly family". We're all brothers and sisters. Pray tell me the advantage of a "mormon sealing ceremony" when we'll all be there together anyway.

Ray:  Yes, we’ll all be there anyway, but you see us being there as single people, while we see us being there as families. You know, men and women, living together, as families are here on Earth. What is so rich about living forever as a single person?

Jason:  No, Catholicism sees us there as a family. As for being single, why do you think that your carnal impulses will be needed in heaven?

Come on, Jason. Surely you know what I meant. I wasn’t only talking about every one of us being members of one big huge gigantic family. I was also talking about every one of us having a family of our own, with a spouse and children who grow up and have families of their own, like we do here on Earth right now. Surely you aren’t so obtuse that you didn’t know what I meant. Are you telling me that you believe your vision of us as one big huge gigantic “heavenly family” is “richer” than being able to have a spouse and children who grow up to have families of their own? Would you like to live the rest of your life as a single person in a perfect world knowing that we are all just one big huge gigantic family, and that’s it?

Ray:  You also seem to think that God consists of 3 persons, but those 3 persons are not 3 individuals. How do you make sense out of that, and how is that idea better or “richer” than ours?

Jason:  It's a cultural and historical legacy that stems from Christianity and greek philosophy. There's much to be learned. The god of Mormonism, on the other hand, is just a man who has "spirit" kids, and apparently underwent 3 hours of boredom every sunday for his entire life on some other planet.

Ray: There you go again with that negative attitude. Can’t you just say something positive about your religion without denigrating ours? Can’t you say something richer than “There’s much to be learned”?

Jason:  You're asking my opinion on Mormonism. I’m giving it to you.

No, I was asking about how your idea of God is “richer” than our idea of God. I’m giving you an opportunity to share with me how your idea of God is “richer” than mine? In other words, what “richer” idea does your religion give you that mine does not?

Ray:  Do you imagine that you’ll be able to give your God a hug? Or walk and talk with Him? Or learn to be like Him, while spending the rest of eternity near Him?

Jason:  I don't know that God or I will need a hug. As for communication, I’m sure God has his ways.

Ray:  I fear you greatly underestimate the power of a hug. I hope you hug YOUR family!

Jason:  Humans may need hugs, but I don't know that God does. I’m sure he's more emotionally stable than we are.

Again, I’m asking about how you relate to God, according to your ideas.

Ray:  And then there is that one big individual issue... no more personal revelation from God. Apparently you believe that we’re supposed to just read books and rely upon our own brainpower to comprehend the truth, with the Bible as our only link to God.

Yet look at the mess the world is in because of that, with so many people unable to “see’ things the same way. What is your answer to that, and how is that “richer” than the explanation we offer?

Jason: You've apparently missed something somewhere. Catholics (and many protestants for that matter) believe in personal revelation. Just because we don't hear a voice in our heads that begins with "thus saith the Lord" doesn't mean that the Holy Ghost doesn't guide and direct us. I believe that prayer works, don' t you?

Ray:  Heh, after all the discussions we’ve had together, that is the first time you’ve told me that God speaks to you.   I say that God speaks to me too, so now I guess we’ll just have to keep praying for assurances and waiting until we find out for super sure who we’ve really been listening to.

Jason:  There's a tradition and history there that the "newness" of Mormonism lacks. You may be awe inspired by a rebuilt Nauvoo, but to travel to Rome, or Istanbul offers visitors something that old US frontier cities lack. Furthermore, I believe that mormon theology is rather simplistic, lacking much depth and thought.

Ray:  “Mormonism” embraces Christianity all the way back to the days of Adam, and even before that to a pre-mortal existence. You’re misleading people by saying that it all started in Nauvoo.

Jason:  I didn't. I was comparing Nauvoo to Rome and Istanbul. I also used the term "old US frontier cities" referring to Independence and Kirtland.

Ray:  You’re also misleading people by saying that mormon theology doesn’t consist of much depth and thought.

Jason:  It doesn't. Speculation aside, it doesn't take long to understand all there is to know about it. I'd say, less than five years of steady research, and you'll have most of it down.

Ray:  Perhaps you never gave it very much, but I’ve been learning since I became a member 15 years ago and imagine that I could go on learning things forever.

Jason:  Learning and depth are different things.

Again, you’re focusing on your negative perception of my religion instead of focusing on the positive aspects of yours. I was trying to bring out some aspects of my religion for you to compare it to, for which I expected to hear about how yours is so much better, but instead of trying to share your perception of how your religion is so much “richer” than mine you keep going back to focusing on your negative perception of my religion.

Are you having trouble breaking that cycle? Can’t you just elaborate on how your religion is so much “richer”?

We have a saying in my religion that is something like:

bring all the good you have in your religion, and let’s see if we can add to it.

I’m still waiting for you to focus on the positive and eliminate the negative because that’s what it’s all about.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 11 2004, 07:49 PM

Jason:  I feel that there's a vast richness in Catholicism that Mormonism lacks. But to each his own.

Ray:  Vast richness? Really? Then why haven’t you talked about those things that you think make your religion seem better than ours? It seems like you’ve spent most of your time telling us what you see that is wrong with ours.

Jason:  Yes really. I don't talk about it, because nobody's expressed an interest. I’m still waiting for some comments on the "polytheism" thread, but for three days now, nobody's had any interest. Besides, this is a "pro-LDS board", as some are constantly reminding.

Ray: …but you think people have been expressing an interest in hearing the negative things you have said about our religion? Why don’t you just praise God as you see Him, or Them, or whatever you think it is that God is? Can’t you just say something positive?

Jason: This is LDS Talk. That means we talk about Mormonism, the good and the bad.

Here at LDS Talk we talk about lots of things, not just “Mormonism”. Surely you must have noticed that. Some of the issues we’ve talked about that are associated with “Mormonism” are also associated with other Christian religions, giving you plenty of opportunities to discuss your perspective while focusing on the positive aspects of your religion and ours. But that was never on your agenda, was it.

Ray: Personally, I don’t see living a single life-style as a richer way to live. 

Apparently you believe that men will still be men, women will still be women, but families will no longer continue. How is that supposed to work and what is so rich about that?

Jason:  Some are called for married life, some are called for religious life, some for clergy. We all have our calling, Ray.  It's called the "heavenly family". We're all brothers and sisters. Pray tell me the advantage of a "mormon sealing ceremony" when we'll all be there together anyway.

Ray:  Yes, we’ll all be there anyway, but you see us being there as single people, while we see us being there as families. You know, men and women, living together, as families are here on Earth. What is so rich about living forever as a single person?

Jason:  No, Catholicism sees us there as a family. As for being single, why do you think that your carnal impulses will be needed in heaven?

Come on, Jason. Surely you know what I meant. I wasn’t only talking about every one of us being members of one big huge gigantic family. I was also talking about every one of us having a family of our own, with a spouse and children who grow up and have families of their own, like we do here on Earth right now. Surely you aren’t so obtuse that you didn’t know what I meant. Are you telling me that you believe your vision of us as one big huge gigantic “heavenly family” is “richer” than being able to have a spouse and children who grow up to have families of their own? Would you like to live the rest of your life as a single person in a perfect world knowing that we are all just one big huge gigantic family, and that’s it?

Ray:  You also seem to think that God consists of 3 persons, but those 3 persons are not 3 individuals. How do you make sense out of that, and how is that idea better or “richer” than ours?

Jason:  It's a cultural and historical legacy that stems from Christianity and greek philosophy. There's much to be learned. The god of Mormonism, on the other hand, is just a man who has "spirit" kids, and apparently underwent 3 hours of boredom every sunday for his entire life on some other planet.

Ray: There you go again with that negative attitude. Can’t you just say something positive about your religion without denigrating ours? Can’t you say something richer than “There’s much to be learned”?

Jason:  You're asking my opinion on Mormonism. I’m giving it to you.

No, I was asking about how your idea of God is “richer” than our idea of God. I’m giving you an opportunity to share with me how your idea of God is “richer” than mine? In other words, what “richer” idea does your religion give you that mine does not?

Ray:  Do you imagine that you’ll be able to give your God a hug? Or walk and talk with Him? Or learn to be like Him, while spending the rest of eternity near Him?

Jason:  I don't know that God or I will need a hug. As for communication, I’m sure God has his ways.

Ray:  I fear you greatly underestimate the power of a hug. I hope you hug YOUR family!

Jason:  Humans may need hugs, but I don't know that God does. I’m sure he's more emotionally stable than we are.

Again, I’m asking about how you relate to God, according to your ideas.

Ray:  And then there is that one big individual issue... no more personal revelation from God. Apparently you believe that we’re supposed to just read books and rely upon our own brainpower to comprehend the truth, with the Bible as our only link to God.

Yet look at the mess the world is in because of that, with so many people unable to “see’ things the same way. What is your answer to that, and how is that “richer” than the explanation we offer?

Jason: You've apparently missed something somewhere. Catholics (and many protestants for that matter) believe in personal revelation. Just because we don't hear a voice in our heads that begins with "thus saith the Lord" doesn't mean that the Holy Ghost doesn't guide and direct us. I believe that prayer works, don' t you?

Ray:  Heh, after all the discussions we’ve had together, that is the first time you’ve told me that God speaks to you.   I say that God speaks to me too, so now I guess we’ll just have to keep praying for assurances and waiting until we find out for super sure who we’ve really been listening to.

Jason:  There's a tradition and history there that the "newness" of Mormonism lacks. You may be awe inspired by a rebuilt Nauvoo, but to travel to Rome, or Istanbul offers visitors something that old US frontier cities lack. Furthermore, I believe that mormon theology is rather simplistic, lacking much depth and thought.

Ray:  “Mormonism” embraces Christianity all the way back to the days of Adam, and even before that to a pre-mortal existence. You’re misleading people by saying that it all started in Nauvoo.

Jason:  I didn't. I was comparing Nauvoo to Rome and Istanbul. I also used the term "old US frontier cities" referring to Independence and Kirtland.

Ray:  You’re also misleading people by saying that mormon theology doesn’t consist of much depth and thought.

Jason:  It doesn't. Speculation aside, it doesn't take long to understand all there is to know about it. I'd say, less than five years of steady research, and you'll have most of it down.

Ray:  Perhaps you never gave it very much, but I’ve been learning since I became a member 15 years ago and imagine that I could go on learning things forever.

Jason:  Learning and depth are different things.

Again, you’re focusing on your negative perception of my religion instead of focusing on the positive aspects of yours. I was trying to bring out some aspects of my religion for you to compare it to, for which I expected to hear about how yours is so much better, but instead of trying to share your perception of how your religion is so much “richer” than mine you keep going back to focusing on your negative perception of my religion.

Are you having trouble breaking that cycle? Can’t you just elaborate on how your religion is so much “richer”?

We have a saying in my religion that is something like:

bring all the good you have in your religion, and let’s see if we can add to it.

I’m still waiting for you to focus on the positive and eliminate the negative because that’s what it’s all about.

Pssst.....Ray......this is the Adam=G-d thread. Try to stay focused.

[Ray]

Heh, oh well, you know what they say...things evolve. Besides, this is MY thread and I can do what I want to. :)

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 11 2004, 11:28 AM

bat,

I decided not to wait for you to get back to me, but I’d still like to know the complete reference for this discourse if you can find it.

On June 8, 1873, Brigham Young, in a sermon, which was published in Deseret News on June 14, 1873, said:

We say that Father Adam came here and helped to make the Earth. Who is he? He is Michael, a great Prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim, 'Go ye and make an earth.'

Adam is referred to as a Father because he became the Father of our flesh, with every person born on Earth coming through him and his wife Eve. Think of what an honor that was, and the glory that gives him according to the order of our families. Adam is a Father to us, Abraham is a Father to us, Jesus is a Father to us, and Eloheim is a Father to us. They’re just Fathers in different ways. Notice that Brigham referred to Adam and Eloheim as different persons.

What is the great mystery about it? He came and FORMED the EARTH. Adam came here and got it up in shape.  The mystery in this is only to those who are ignorant. Father Adam came here, and then they brought his wife.

Where is the mystery? Adam was one of the persons who formed this earth along with his brother Jesus. Jesus is the same person as Jehovah, and Adam is the same person as Michael. While we don’t know another name for the person who became the wife for Adam, we do know her as Eve, and she was also living in heaven before she came to Earth.

[Question:]’Well,’ says one, 'why was Adam called Adam?' [Answer:] He was the first man on the earth, and its FRAMER AND MAKER. He, with the help of his brethren, brought it into existence.

Brigham Young seems to repeat himself a lot, doesn’t he. He has just said the same thing 3 different times, elaborating a little on what Adam had done after Eloheim had told him to do it. Brigham then tells us something else that Eloheim had said to Adam.

Then he said [Eloheim said to Adam], 'I want my children who are in the Spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an Earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the Spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has,' and where is the mystery?"

Again, where is the mystery? You should be able to see that “he” in the above paragraph refers to Eloheim because this person was referring to his children, whereas in the preceding paragraph Brigham was saying that those people were Adam’s brethren.

NEXT…

Ray, this is crap. You're trying to put your own spin on a simple teaching. Why?

Read it a little more carefully to see if you can understand exactly what it is BY was saying. If you still don't get it, let me know and I will walk you through it.

Here is a hint:

We say that Father Adam came here and helped to make the Earth. Who is he? He is Michael, a great Prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim, 'Go ye and make an earth.'

Did Eloheim tell a mortal to go make an earth? No. Eloheim told Adam who is a god to go make an earth.

Did that help?

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 11 2004, 08:03 PM

Heh, oh well, you know what they say...things evolve. Besides, this is MY thread and I can do what I want to. :)

I am not following your red fish. Back to the subject please.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 11 2004, 06:44 AM

bat,

Please find that sermon so that I can quote from the original record. I'm sure that sermon would have been recorded in the Journal of Discourses, but I can't find one that Brigham Young made on June 8, 1873. Here is a link to all of the Journals from that time period: http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/

I didn't want to type it all out, and it doesn't appear to be in the JoD, so here you go.

[Guest bat]

Is this unclear at all? Do you have a spin for this quote too?

"Why was Adam called Adam"?  He was the first man on the earth, and it's framer and maker.  He, with the help of his bretheren, brought it into existance.

It's all right there, in context.

[Guest bat]

Hey, doesn't this mean that Eve is our Heavenly Mother, or at least one of them? Wow, that never clicked until just now. Maybe that's why we aren't supposed to talk about her, because she is Eve and the church wants this doctrine to just go away. Yay for me, I learned something new today.

[Guest AmeliaM]

Ray-

grow up I have never heard someone try so hard to fight for something and be so repelling at the same time. where is your christlike attitude were you treat everyone with dignity and respect no matter what religion they might be. I do not see the president of the mormon church commending you on your displays in this thread. And so you might be the one who started this thread get over yourself I am finding you very offensive and negative. I got on this board for educations sake and if all their is going to be is warm fuzzy crap then you have helped the fold to lose a sheep, because I am looking for all different angels to chose from in my quest for the truth, be it in mormonism or catholicism or buddhism. I hope your attitude can be humbled a little and you can look back and see exactly what you are doing.

AmeliaM.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by AmeliaM@Aug 11 2004, 09:31 PM

Ray-

grow up I have never heard someone try so hard to fight for something and be so repelling at the same time. where is your christlike attitude were you treat everyone with dignity and respect no matter what religion they might be. I do not see the president of the mormon church commending you on your displays in this thread. And so you might be the one who started this thread get over yourself I am finding you very offensive and negative. I got on this board for educations sake and if all their is going to be is warm fuzzy crap then you have helped the fold to lose a sheep, because I am looking for all different angels to chose from in my quest for the truth, be it in mormonism or catholicism or buddhism. I hope your attitude can be humbled a little and you can look back and see exactly what you are doing.

AmeliaM.

You should consider becoming an Internet Mormon.

[lurker]

This Adam/God thing is totally confusing to me. It seems like some of the teachings conflict with each other, or perhaps we're taking things out of context. I read Brigham Young's sermon in the Journal of Discourses, and I have to say that I have a very different take on it than you guys. I agree with Ray that Brigham Young is not teaching that Adam is God (as in the God that we worship as our Heavenly Father) because, if you read it in context, he goes on to speak of Adam and God as different beings. That seems pretty clear to me. What confuses me, however, is that it seems Brigham Young is saying that Adam is the Holy Ghost.

It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Eloheim = Father

Yahvah = Son

Michael (Adam) = Holy Ghost

Doesn't any one else read it like this?? I really don't see how this sermon could be read with a different interpretation.

[Ray]

Guys,

You're on your own. I've already admitted that I don't know everything about this issue and that I am not trying to share an understanding of EVERYTHING that Brigham Young meant. I've also told you that I cannot convince YOU of the truth that I do know, so what else do you expect from me? And FYI, don't expect ME to do what only GOD can do. THEY are our source of truth, and we should all be looking to THEM for guidance. (And if you need me to spell that out for you too, I'm referring to our heavenly FATHER, His SON Jesus, and the Holy Spirit)

Jason,

You've given me some good information to ponder, and I do appreciate your efforts to try to "help" me, but as I said before, I am going to continue to rely upon God to guide me. I still don't see anything "richer" in your religion than I can find in mine, but, like you said, to each his own.

Amelia,

Can you see that you threw stones at me? I haven't thrown stones at anyone like you just did, and if you cannot excuse a bit of playfulness then that is your problem.

bat,

You can call it a "spin" if you want to, but I believe a little "spinning" is good as long as we're only restating the truth.

lurker,

I don't believe Brigham Young was saying that Adam [Michael] was the Holy Ghost, or at least not the same Holy Ghost that we have now, but that he was occupying the position of the Holy Ghost during the creation of the Earth. As I see it, there will always be a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost involved in the creation and dispensations of EVERY Earth, with no end to the number of Earths that WILL be created.

This is Ray, signing off on this thread.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 12 2004, 07:04 AM

bat,

You can call it a "spin" if you want to, but I believe a little "spinning" is good as long as we're only restating the truth.

The truth according to you, or the truth of a man called by G-d/Ad-m himself to be a prophet, Brigham Young? Have you ever considered discontinuing your blaspheming of the L-rd's annointed?

[Guest bat]

Ray,

Just in case you are in the mood for learning something:

http://messenger.mormonfundamentalism.org/...g/adamtruth.htm

(edited for tpyographical error)

[Guest Traci]

Originally posted by bat@Aug 22 2004, 02:22 AM

Ray,

Juse in case you are in the mood for learning something:

Something, in this case, meaning "seeds of doubt."