Jehovah and Moses

[MrNirom]

Jehovah was Jesus Christ. At the time of Moses.. was he is spiritual form.. or did he have some type of physical body?

In Exodus 33:9-11 it says:

9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy• pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.

10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

11 And the Lord spake• unto Moses face• to face, as a man speaketh• unto his friend•. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua•, the son of Nun•, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

I have others who say that Moses and Abraham knew that Jehovah was Jesus Christ and they worshiped him.

It has been said that we do not worship Jesus Christ.. but we worship the Eternal Father through Jesus Christ.

What is your take?

[Vanhin]

He was a spirit person and did not have a body at that point. Yet he was fully God, and under the direction of the Father, he created the heavens and the earth.

I guess I can't speak for everyone else, but I worship Jesus Christ, just like I do the Father, in spirit and truth. True, I only pray to the Father because Jesus taught me to pray to the Father in his name, but prayer is not the only form of worship. The name of our Church bears the name of Jesus Christ, and when we are baptized, we take upon us his name. The priesthood we bear, is the Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. It is He who directs the affairs of his kingdom to his chosen oracles, the prophets. Every Sunday, we partake of the Sacrament in remembrance of his sacrifice, and it is He that we strive to emulate. It is faith in Jesus Christ and in his atonement that qualifies us for salvation in the highest kingdom of glory. Rarely has the voice of the Father been heard, and in almost every case, he introduces his Son, and Jehovah speaks to his creation. So, if we are not worshipers of Jesus Christ, then I don't know who is.

Jesus Christ was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Moses, Nephi, Enos, The Brother of Jared, Peter, Moroni, and Joseph Smith. He is my God as well, and I say it without any compromise. Consider the words of the late prophet Gordon B. Hinckley:

None so great has ever walked the earth. None other has made a comparable sacrifice or granted a comparable blessing. He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I declare His divinity without equivocation or compromise. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me. (LDS.org - Liahona Article - In These Three I Believe)

If we are to reach our fullest potential, and really know the Father, we must know his Son, by becoming like him. That is eternal life. They are one in every possible way, except substance.

Read the account of the Brother of Jared on the pre-mortal Jesus Christ, it is excellent:

Ether 3

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[bytor2112]

From Elder Bruce R McConkie:

We worship the Father and him only and no one else.

We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

Our revelations say that the Father "is infinite and eternal," that he created mankind, "and gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship." (D&C 20:17-19)

Jesus said "True worshippers shall"--note that this is mandatory--"shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him. For unto such hath God promised his spirit. And they who worship him in spirit and in truth." (JST, John 4:25-26) There is no other way, no other approved system of worship.

Another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this connection a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence--quote: "Because the Savior is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through his Son." Unquote. This is plain, sectarian non-sense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father and to him only. They do not go through Christ or the Blessed Virgin or St. Genevieve or along the beads of a rosary. We are entitled to come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Edited July 27, 2008 by bytor2112

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Does anybody even really know what it means to "worShip"?

When God (Yahweh/Jehovah) spoke to Moses, he did not have a physical body, but he DID have a spiritual body that would look physical to those with eyes to see ( Ether 3, Moses 3, Doctrine and Covenants 131 ).

For "my take" on the ancients worshiping Yahweh even though he would later become the Christ, it's important to recognize who is talking to who when.

Genesis 17:9 - Elohim (God the Father) made a covenant with Abraham ( VY'aMUr 'aLHYM 'aL-'aBUrHM )

Exodus 3:14 - Elohim (God the Father) told Moses "I Am that I Am". ( VY'aMUr 'aLHYM 'aL-MShH 'aHYH 'aShUr 'aHYH )

Exodus 33:11 - Yahweh (Jesus) spoke to Moses face to face. ( VDBUr YHVH 'aL-MShH PhNYM 'aL-PhNYM )

When Moses received the 10 commandments, Israel had gone and made themselves an idol to worship - according to common LDS lore God revoked the higher (Melchizedek)priesthood and allowed Israel the lesser (Aaronic) priesthood only as a consequence for Israel's in.. I believe one of the consequences of this was that Israel was cut off from the presence of God the Father, and so for the duration of the Law of Moses, Yahweh would act in the role of God for Israel. When the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ's atonement, Israel would once again (if they believed and were converted) have the opportunity to worShip the Father directly. Those are my thoughts.

[Vanhin]

From Elder Bruce R McConkie:

We worship the Father and him only and no one else.

We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

Our revelations say that the Father "is infinite and eternal," that he created mankind, "and gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship." (D&C 20:17-19)

Jesus said "True worshippers shall"--note that this is mandatory--"shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him. For unto such hath God promised his spirit. And they who worship him in spirit and in truth." (JST, John 4:25-26) There is no other way, no other approved system of worship.

Another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this connection a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence--quote: "Because the Savior is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through his Son." Unquote. This is plain, sectarian non-sense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father and to him only. They do not go through Christ or the Blessed Virgin or St. Genevieve or along the beads of a rosary. We are entitled to come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

I highly respect Bruce R. McConkie, and he is one of my favorites. However, I don't think he would completely agree with his own statement in last part of his life. It is also notable that the above quote is not found at lds.org, and is not in harmony with many teachings of the prophets and apostles both ancient and modern who worshipped God the Father as the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and His Only Begotten Son, as the Christ; and who had personal relationships with the Son of God.

He was an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, and bore powerful testimony of Him. In his final conference talk, McConkie testified (emphasis added):

"And now, as pertaining to this perfect atonement, wrought by the shedding of the blood of God—I testify that it took place in Gethsemane and at Golgotha, and as pertaining to Jesus Christ, I testify that he is the Son of the Living God and was crucified for the sins of the world. He is our Lord, our God, and our King. This I know of myself independent of any other person." (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Purifying Power of Gethsemane)

And as I also pointed our in another thread, the Hymn "I Believe in Christ" reveals a different message about the divinity of Christ. It's worth posting here as well:

3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God!

My feet he plants on gospel sod.

I’ll worship him with all my might;

He is the source of truth and light.

I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.

From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,

And I shall live with joy and love

In his eternal courts above.

4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!

From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;

And while I strive through grief and pain,

His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”

I believe in Christ; so come what may,

With him I’ll stand in that great day

When on this earth he comes again

To rule among the sons of men.

31243, Hymns, I Believe in Christ, no. 134

Text: Bruce R. McConkie, 1915–1985.

You might also ask the Brother of Jared about gaining a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or Nephi, or Alma the younger. I submit that in order for us to worship the Father, we must also worship his Son, and in order for us to truly know the Father, we must know the Son. They are one. To the Brother of Jared, the pre-mortal Christ said:

Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. (Ether 3:14)

The prophet Abinadi taught that God himself would redeem his people:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. (Mosiah 15:1-4)

I love the Book of Mormon. It stands as an undisputable witness of the divinity of Christ. In it's title page we learn that the Book was for the purpose of "convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God" (Title Page). In the Book of Ether we learn about the blessings bestowed upon those who serve God.

Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written. (Ether 2:12)

And during the final period of time recorded in the Book of Mormon, the true Christians were described as worshipers of Jesus Christ:

Therefore the true believers in Christ, and the true worshipers of Christ, (among whom were the three disciples of Jesus who should tarry) were called Nephites, and Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites. (4 Ne. 1:37)

So, I think I'm going to follow suit with the prophets of old and modern prophets like Pres. Hinckley (and even Elder McConkie), and worship God the Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ, in Spirit and truth.

Ultimately gaining a testimony of Jesus Christ, and of his Divinity, is a personal matter. But it is necessary for our salvation. Others will have to come to terms with this understanding on their own. But for me, I witness that there is a God in Heaven and he is the Father of our spirits, and the Great Architect of the Universe, and there is another "like unto God" (Abr. 3:24), who is the Creator, the Christ, and our Judge. They are one God and they deserve our adoration, reverence, and worship.

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Ne. 25:29)

I'm pretty sure Nephi is talking about true worship beyond merely being in "awe and being reverentially grateful".

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[MrNirom]

When God (Yahweh/Jehovah) spoke to Moses, he did not have a physical body, but he DID have a spiritual body that would look physical to those with eyes to see

So what some would say.. is that when Joseph "saw" the Father and Son together in the first vision.. could the Father not have been in Spiritual Form.. and the Son in physcial form? Sort of proving that the "trinity" God is the truth? Unless Joseph touched the Father and the Son.. how could he have known he had a physcial body?

I realize that this could not be... as someone who believes in the trinity would not even accept that Joseph saw a vision... but you can see what I am getting at.

[Vanhin]

So what some would say.. is that when Joseph "saw" the Father and Son together in the first vision.. could the Father not have been in Spiritual Form.. and the Son in physcial form? Sort of proving that the "trinity" God is the truth? Unless Joseph touched the Father and the Son.. how could he have known he had a physcial body?

I realize that this could not be... as someone who believes in the trinity would not even accept that Joseph saw a vision... but you can see what I am getting at.

Joseph Smith learned later, that both God the Father and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost does not have a body, but is a personage of Spirit only. (D&C 130:22)

Our physical bodies look like our spirits, in that they have arms, legs, head, eyes, etc... Through modern revelation we learn that spirit is matter:

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7)

If we could see the Holy Ghost right now, we would see that he is a Man without a physical body. When the brother of Jared saw the finger of the Lord, God showed himself to the brother of Jared:

And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak? And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.

Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:11-16)

Regards,

Vanhin

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

So what some would say.. is that when Joseph "saw" the Father and Son together in the first vision.. could the Father not have been in Spiritual Form.. and the Son in physcial form? Sort of proving that the "trinity" God is the truth? Unless Joseph touched the Father and the Son.. how could he have known he had a physcial body?

I realize that this could not be... as someone who believes in the trinity would not even accept that Joseph saw a vision... but you can see what I am getting at.

No, I don't see what you're getting at. The Trinity doctrine is scripturally unfounded. Show me one scripture that supports the Trinity and I'll show you how it's been misinterpreted to mean the opposite of what it says, or I'll show you ancient manuscripts that show how that passage was added at a later date.

Besides, one of the main tenets of the Trinity doctrine is that God is "unknowable". Joseph Smith's first (and subsequent) vision is a clear example of someone getting to know God.

[bytor2112]

Vanhin,

The McConkie talk is taken from a 1982 BYU devotional. I think the entire talk would clarify the real point he was making, it is called "Our relationship with the Lord." Another quote from 1985, "The Mysteries of Godliness".....

Man was created and commanded to serve the Father. It is written: "He created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship" (D&C 20:18*19).

Please let these words of scripture sink into your heart and do not be confused about them. In order to gain salvation, we worship the Father and him only. He created us, he provided the plan of salvation, he called Christ to be the Savior and Redeemer, and he is the one that we and Christ shall be like if we are true and faithful in all things. We shall refer hereafter to the sense in which we worship Christ.

Then he goes on about how we worship Christ.........

Edited July 27, 2008 by bytor2112

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

We DO worShip Jesus Christ AND we worShip the Holy Ghost. These two are both members of the Godhead, along with God the Father, and thus all three together are one God ( Mosiah 15 ).

Really, if you want to continue this discussion any further, I seriously suggest somebody try to define worShip. I honestly don't think, with such disparity in opinions, that any of us truly understand what it is.

[Vanhin]

bytor2112,

Thanks, the scriptures don't confuse me. You are welcome to believe as you will, but I cannot compromise on this. This Latter-day Saint worships God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, and I do it in Spirit and truth, as the prophets and apostles have before me, and as our modern prophets and apostles do today. "I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I’ll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan’s grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above."

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[bytor2112]

bytor2112,

Thanks, the scriptures don't confuse me. You are welcome to believe as you will, but I cannot compromise on this. This Latter-day Saint worships God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, and I do it in Spirit and truth, as the prophets and apostles have before me, and as our modern prophets and apostles do today. "I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I’ll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan’s grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above."

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Vanhin...... me too and that is one of my favorite hyms!! I think Bro. McConkie would agree as well. This is from 1988 Liahona found at LDS.org, search all content. Perhaps, I used the quote initially in the wrong way...

Elder Bruce R. McConkie clearly explained what our relationship with each member of the Godhead should be, pointing out that some misguided members of the Church may “begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed” with him. See “Our Relationship with the Lord,” in Brigham Young University 1981–82 Fireside and Devotional Speeches, Provo: Brigham Young University, 1982, pages 97–103.) Likewise, we do not pray to the Holy Ghost, even though we may pray for specific gifts of the Holy Ghost—such as the gifts of tongues, comfort, knowledge, or remembrance.

Edited July 28, 2008 by bytor2112

[Justice]

To me, the most sincere form of worship is when you try to emulate someone.

There is no doubt that we are to worship the Father, and give Him reverence above all. However, Jesus was the One who showed us how to do it. He showed us how to do the Father's will. If we can emulate His example, then we are truly worshipping the Father the way we were intended.

So, by emulating Christ, it might seem we are worshiping Him, and to some extent, maybe we are. Maybe we should. However, I don't think Christ would be hurt or tell us we are wrong for worshipping the Father and not Him. But, if we worshipped Christ and not the Father, Christ would have a problem with that, I think.

At the very least, I think we should worship Them in different ways. To One we owe our very existence and give all we have, and through the Other we can have complete trust and faith in His method to do it. He showed us the way to the Father. He prepared the way for us to have quality of existence, or happiness. He said no man goes to the Father but by Him. There's no doubt we owe Him our eternal gratitude and adoration. Maybe we call it worship, maybe we don't.

But, knowing who the Savior is and what He did for us, it's hard to blame anyone for worshipping Him.

[Vanhin]

Justice,

That's right. It is the Father who commands us by saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear him!". And the Son teaches us to pray to the Father, and to worship him. And the Holy Ghost testifies of both the Father and the Son. Our worship is centered in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is central to the Plan of Salvation. Thanks for your thoughts. I want to expound upon that a little.

I think it is important for us to acknowledge the godhood of Jesus Christ. Many in the Christian world use statements like the one by Bruce R. McConkie, that was quoted earlier, as evidence that we do not worship Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Jehovah, the Lord of the Universe, and the God of the whole earth (Isa. 54:5). He is the Holy One of Israel!

There are two ways that we are children of God. The first way is that we are begotten spirit children of Heavenly Father. Nothing can really change that. But in order for us to become heirs to his kingdoms and to his glory, we must become spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Christ. King Benjamin taught this:

And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. (Mosiah 5:7)

It is only through Christ and his Atonement that we can become begotten sons and daughters unto God in that sense; meaning heirs to the kingdom of God (4 Ne. 1:17). Indeed the entire Plan of Salvation is enabled because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and it is by, through, and of Jesus Christ that all things exists and our progression made possible.

For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:23-24)

Our declaration of Christ's divinity is "unequivical and without compromise". It's no wonder that Nephi taught his people to worship the Father in the name of Christ, and to worship Jesus Christ.

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Ne. 15:16,29)

Those are unmistakeable words. I love how the Book of Mormon testifies of the divinity of Christ. The Christian world should embrace this new volume of scripture; it truly is Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

It is the faithful testimony of Jesus Christ that qualifies us for membership in the Church of the First Born and heirs to exaltation. Check this out:

They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things— They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God— Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. And they shall overcome all things.

Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. (D&C 71:51-62)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

To me, the most sincere form of worship is when you try to emulate someone.

There is no doubt that we are to worship the Father, and give Him reverence above all. However, Jesus was the One who showed us how to do it. He showed us how to do the Father's will. If we can emulate His example, then we are truly worshipping the Father the way we were intended.

So, by emulating Christ, it might seem we are worshiping Him, and to some extent, maybe we are. Maybe we should. However, I don't think Christ would be hurt or tell us we are wrong for worshipping the Father and not Him. But, if we worshipped Christ and not the Father, Christ would have a problem with that, I think.

At the very least, I think we should worship Them in different ways. To One we owe our very existence and give all we have, and through the Other we can have complete trust and faith in His method to do it. He showed us the way to the Father. He prepared the way for us to have quality of existence, or happiness. He said no man goes to the Father but by Him. There's no doubt we owe Him our eternal gratitude and adoration. Maybe we call it worship, maybe we don't.

But, knowing who the Savior is and what He did for us, it's hard to blame anyone for worshipping Him.

How's the saying go? "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"? I'm sure everyone has heros and role models who they try desperately to emulate, but I don't think that any of us would call that worShip - not in the same sense as we are to worShip deity. And again many of us probably have had at least one person in our lives who we love and respect and indeed would say we worShip (first loves and forlorn romances come to mind) yet it's not the same worShip that we reserve for Godhood.

While emulating the Savior is a wise and wonderful choice, even a commandment, I do not think following His example constitutes true worShip by itself. There's got to be something more to it.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Actually, I started a similar thread here Israel's God - An Old Testament Doctrine it is similar to this one here that everyone is discussing.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Actually, I started a similar thread here Israel's God - An Old Testament Doctrine it is similar to this one here that everyone is discussing.

How do I put this delicately? Um... You're full of it.

Since Elohiym does not mean anything regarding Existence

Why should it?

YHWH means the Existing One

No it doesn't (you used Young's Concordance didn't you?). Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia makes it clear how many different possibilities there are.

this may very well have originally been rendered And YHWH said unto Moses I AM THAT I AM. Or, in other words, the existing one has sent you.

Pure and utter speculation with 0 scriptural, revelatory, or scholarly basis.

How do I come to this conclusion? Mere context.

At least you admit that your assertions have no support.

LDS doctrine states that Elohim (אליכם transliterated 'aLHYM) is the name of God the Father.

LDS doctrine states that Yahweh/Jehovah (יהוה transliterated YHVH) is the same as Jesus Christ. Modern scholars suggest that the most likely root for YHVH is the Hebrew verb hayah (to be) with no clear translation.

Exodus 3:14 - ויאמר אלהים אל משה אהיה אשר אהיה ויאמר כה תאמר לבני ישראל אהיה שלחני אליכם׃

Transliterated - VY'aMUr 'aLHYM 'aL-MShH 'aHYH 'aShUr 'aHYH VY'aMUr KH Th'aMUr LBNY YShUr'aL 'aHYH ShLChNY 'aLYKM.

Translated - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Every manuscript we have uses the "Elohim" in this verse. It is completely unreasonable to assume against all evidence that the verse was written any other way. The most plausible explanation is that which we already have - that God the Father spoke to Moses and told Moses that "I am that I am". While YHVH is possibly related to the 'aHYH verb in this verse, it is completely unclear and mere speculation whether 'aHYH is a reference to YHVH.

A secondary explanation: Since Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew root "Eloah" meaning God, it is possible (I'm going against modern prophets here) that Elohim is a title representing the entire Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) and not just God the Father. In this case, Moses' visitation was from all three members of the Godhead, and not one member in particular (compare Stephen and Joseph Smith). In this instance, the use of the verb "to be" may easily have been a reference to YHVH. Of course this is my own concoction and, although I believe it more well supported than yours, is still subject to the same scrutiny (which I welcome!).

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

My attempt was to support the LDS Doctrines on who Jehovah and Elohim are. I am well aware of the Documentary Hypothesis, the problematic Masoretic Text that majority of Old Testament English versions are derived from.

The fact that you out right stated that I am full of it is more of an ad hominem attack and I do not welcome it. Regardless of what you posted later on. I am sorry, but I found that offensive.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

The fact that you out right stated that I am full of it is more of an ad hominem attack and I do not welcome it. Regardless of what you posted later on. I am sorry, but I found that offensive.

You're absolutely right. Ad hominem to the Nth degree.

While your reasons I hold in high esteem, your approach, and specifically the conjecture that you used in your approach, went against everything that I personally understood as truth and accepted as reality. Unfortunately, I'm the kind of person who takes contradictions to his values and principles as a personal afront, even when it's not meant to be. Not an excuse, just an explanation.

I expect I owe you an apology for my unwarranted personal attack. This will have to suffice for now. I am sorry for my unfair introduction.

Personally, to suggest that any given line of scripture was once written in a completely different fashion than what we have before us without any scholarly evidence (be it grammatical, linguistic, semantic, or an ancient manuscript) or revelatory manifestation is borderline blasphemy (in my opinion). Especially when the existing text has a clear and simple interpretation that leads to the same conclusion you are trying to draw with the supposed changes. Besides that, it overcomplicates things.

[Vanhin]

I'm a little lost on what you two are talking about. Just one quick point, just in case it is needed... It is beyond speculation that "I AM" is one of the titles of Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who appeared to Moses in much the same manner that he did to the brother of Jared at an earlier time.

Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins; (D&C 29:1)

(see also Guide to the Scriptures: I Am)

And this quote from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

To Moses, Jehovah identified himself by the title "I AM THAT I AM"-a variation on the verbal root of YHWH (Ex. 3:14) (Jehovah, Jesus Christ - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism)

It is beyond dispute that Jesus Christ is the Holy One of Israel, and in almost every case where the Father is identified as the one speaking in scripture, it is, in fact, Jehovah who is speaking as the Father. He is completely authorized to do so. :)

In 1916 the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following doctrinal statement on the relationship between the Father and the Son: "Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; …and since that period in His resurrected state" (MFP 5:31-32).

The Book of Mormon, like no other book, establishes the divinity of Christ beyond any doubt. My last quote of the post:

The Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men... (Mosiah 3:5)

I don't know how else to say it. The scriptures are before us. Jesus Christ is not just our Elder Brother, and he's not just a councilor in the Presidency of Heaven, He is the "Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity", and the God of all the prophets from Adam to Thomas S. Monson. In him is the Father and the Son, and only through him can we return to the Father and be exalted with our families.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Islander]

It is suggested that because we are physical, tri-dimensional beings, we are constantly seeking to harmonize that portion of our own material existence. As we believe to be the offspring of God, we tend to inquire and question as to validate the assertion that God, the Father has a body. Not enough information is available. We do know that in Exodus 24:10 it speaking that "And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone..." Ex 33 contain very interesting passages related to the "physical" nature of the body of God. Beyond that, we do know that man was created after the image of God. Moses, Jacob and Joshua describe anthropomorphic experiences with God.

The scriptures do not detail much, but the brother of Jared saw the finger of the Lord. So, all this points to the fact that indeed God (YHW/pre-mortal Jesus) had corporeal form before his mortal minitry upon the earth. ALL the description of God the Father in the Book of Revelation point to a physical deity separate from the Lamb/Jesus who sits or stands on His (the father's) right hand.

I am not a theologian and these issues of deep, reflective doctrine do not intrigue me much, thus I tend to ignore them most of the time. I thought it would be fund for a change to think and research a bit on the subject. .

[Hemidakota]

Jehovah was Jesus Christ. At the time of Moses.. was he is spiritual form.. or did he have some type of physical body?

In Exodus 33:9-11 it says:

9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy• pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.

10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

11 And the Lord spake• unto Moses face• to face, as a man speaketh• unto his friend•. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua•, the son of Nun•, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

I have others who say that Moses and Abraham knew that Jehovah was Jesus Christ and they worshiped him.

It has been said that we do not worship Jesus Christ.. but we worship the Eternal Father through Jesus Christ.

What is your take?

What are you truly seeking in your life? Same as what Joseph Smith observed in the first vision?

[MrNirom]

Here is what was happening. I was discussing "God" with a non member and was trying to figure out how to explain that Jesus is both the son of God.. and God the Father.. but not our Heavenly Father.

And then.. whether or not we "worship" Jesus.

Now this idea has been hard for me to implement. I have been worshiping the Father.. in the name of Christ... but I have not "worshiped" Christ.

Someone brought up.. what do we mean by worship. And that is a good point. I pray to the Father.. but do it in the name of Christ. I remember Christ.. by partaking of the Sacrament. I speak of Christ.. I recognize and am so thankful what he did for us.. and for me.

But my problem is when someone asks me if I worship Christ. I don't know why but I get this idea in my head of bowing down over and over again. "That every knee should bow." So.. because I pray to the Father.. in my head.. that is worship. Probably because I am on my knees. But I am never on my knees praying to Christ. So I feel like I am not worshiping Christ... and therefore can't say to the person.. yes.. I worship Christ.

So I am trying to .. "in my head" figure a way that I can say I am worshiping Christ.. and the Father.

I knew that God appeared to Moses.. and Moses saw him.. but then believing that God was Jesus.. and he was in spirit form as he had not come to earth yet.. I was trying to figure out what seeing Jesus in spirit form looked like.

Because people who believe that God is a spirit.. when you then tell them that Jesus was a spirit when he appeared to Moses.. then going to the first vision.. how did Joseph know that the Father or the Son was just not in spirit form.. instead of with flesh and bone. I mean.. if they "look" the same.. how would one tell? I kinda get the idea that Joseph did not at that time distinguish that God or the Son was made of flesh and bone.. but did distinguish that they were in the form of man.. IE.. two hands, arms, eyes, ears, legs, etc. and that they were two separate beings.

Then of course.. you have those who will then say to me.. well... God being who he is.. can appear in any form that he wants and can multiply himself is he so desires. (it feels like a losing battle talking to non members about this.) So.. trying to teach that God is a corporeal being from the Bible is impossible. It is only from latter day revelation through Joseph Smith that we have determined he has a body of flesh and bone.

So have I totally confused everyone?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

It is suggested that because we are physical, tri-dimensional beings, we are constantly seeking to harmonize that portion of our own material existence. As we believe to be the offspring of God, we tend to inquire and question as to validate the assertion that God, the Father has a body. Not enough information is available. We do know that in Exodus 24:10 it speaking that "And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone..." Ex 33 contain very interesting passages related to the "physical" nature of the body of God. Beyond that, we do know that man was created after the image of God. Moses, Jacob and Joshua describe anthropomorphic experiences with God.

The scriptures do not detail much, but the brother of Jared saw the finger of the Lord. So, all this points to the fact that indeed God (YHW/pre-mortal Jesus) had corporeal form before his mortal minitry upon the earth. ALL the description of God the Father in the Book of Revelation point to a physical deity separate from the Lamb/Jesus who sits or stands on His (the father's) right hand.

I am not a theologian and these issues of deep, reflective doctrine do not intrigue me much, thus I tend to ignore them most of the time. I thought it would be fund for a change to think and research a bit on the subject. .

Using Exodus in evidence of YHVH having a body is kind of superfluous. I think a couple of us have already quoted the D&C where it says that "All spirit is matter", and from the Brother of Jared's account (and he saw YHVH entire, not just his finger) and D&C we know that our spirit bodies (and thus Jesus' spirit body) look the same as our physical bodies (minus, of course, the defects of this imperfect existence).

In any case, I appreciate the mention of God the Father in revelations and the difference between his description and that of Jesus.

MrNirom:

Yes, it is a losing battle. At least when you try to debate it secularly. I suggest, instead of trying to prove your point, that you instead present a few important pieces of evidence (Biblical descriptions of God the Father and Jesus as seperate beings) and then bear testimony and exhort your fellows to pray on the matter. That almost always has a more profound effect than debating the issue to death.