Cal Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by Setheus@Jan 30 2004, 12:41 PM Taoist, remember when Joe smith said he saw his brother in the celestial kingdom and wondered at how that could be since he died before the fist vision? Because He knew his heart and knew he would have chosen the right if he'd bepresented the chance to do so. I belive thats what was answered to Joe smith wasnt it? Setheus--if all it takes to be saved is for God to know your heart (as per Alvin), then why all this ordinance stuff? He knows our hearts. Apparently, that is all that is required---according to JS. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by Cal+Feb 1 2004, 11:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Feb 1 2004, 11:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Jan 30 2004, 12:41 PM Taoist, remember when Joe smith said he saw his brother in the celestial kingdom and wondered at how that could be since he died before the fist vision? Because He knew his heart and knew he would have chosen the right if he'd bepresented the chance to do so. I belive thats what was answered to Joe smith wasnt it? Setheus--if all it takes to be saved is for God to know your heart (as per Alvin), then why all this ordinance stuff? He knows our hearts. Apparently, that is all that is required---according to JS. We all know the Lord knows our heart, ...Elder Maxwell in his book "Lord Increase Our Faith" said, Ordinances, in fact, are required for several vital reasons. To begin with, ordinances show our visible, outward obedience to the Lord and His plan of salvation. (pg 74)Even Jesus Christ who had no sin, was baptized not only to be an example to us but also because he was obedient to the commandment sent forth by Heavenly Fahter. "Hence ordinaces are required not because God lacks the ominiscience needed to know our true spiritual status, but because we need to make visible, outward compliance for our own sakes," (Maxwell pg 76)Also if the Lord knows our hearts...he knows what we will do if given the chance....IOW if Alvin had been given the chance the Lord knows he would have had the ordinances...It is based upon the same PRINCIPLE as when the Lord taught:Matt. 5: 28 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.The thought is as powerful as the act....in wickedness.Therefore the thought/or desire of the heart of someone who didn't have the opportunity to receive ordinances would be the same as him doing them if given the chance.This is why we do work for the dead...that they may be judge though dead...as men in the flesh.D&C 138: 10 10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.) Quote
Cal Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Peace--so I guess mormon doctrine is a big mess of contradictions. No big surprise. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Feb 1 2004, 12:13 PM Peace--so I guess mormon doctrine is a big mess of contradictions. No big surprise. Actually you are the only thing I find contradicting himself.NO BIG SURPRISE. Quote
Cal Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Peace-- ---To get to heaven you must be baptized, sealed etc. ---Alvin goes to heaven anyway. Sounds like a contradiction to me. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Feb 1 2004, 12:20 PM Peace-----To get to heaven you must be baptized, sealed etc.---Alvin goes to heaven anyway.Sounds like a contradiction to me. Again you show your ignorance of information available to all. It is written that even before Christ was born, those who believed upon His name would receive the atonement..This same principle works according to the ordinances...whether they are done early or late....the people who would accept the ordinance when it is done....will receive the reward accordingly.It would be like a 'loan' of good faith. You get your money now...and do the 'paying' later in the form of ordinances when they were performed by men in the temple.Also...if you would read the scriptures to find truth instead of error.... you would know that virtue clingeth to virtue...mercy to mercy....This is a principle of emense purportions. What you are in your heart...when you die...will be what you are in your heart when you arrive in the next life.... Read Alma, and D&C 88. Quote
Cal Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 So, we are what we are. God knows it. So, what is the purpose of all this "life is a trial to see if we will be obedience". God already knows it. What a crock! Quote
Guest Starsky Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Feb 1 2004, 12:39 PM So, we are what we are. God knows it. So, what is the purpose of all this "life is a trial to see if we will be obedience". God already knows it. What a crock! Oh brother....don't you read anything?D&C 122:7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, <span style=\'color:red\'><span style=\'font-family:Geneva\'>know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?</span>Can you understand the PRINCIPLE involved here...or do I have to spell it out again? Quote
Cal Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Great posting--too bad it has nothing to do with the issue raised. The issue is NOT whether life will give us experience. It is whether you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get to heaven. Try to stick to the issues. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted February 1, 2004 Report Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Feb 1 2004, 12:50 PM Great posting--too bad it has nothing to do with the issue raised.The issue is NOT whether life will give us experience. It is whether you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get to heaven. Try to stick to the issues. You do need me to spell it out don't you..you are so full of ignorance...you really need help....more than I have time for.My post was exactly right on the issue at hand...it is up to you to learn enough to know that. Quote
Tr2 Posted February 4, 2004 Report Posted February 4, 2004 This is the question I have for you today Trident. Your own Church is pretty uniformly denounced as a cult and a joke (google Toronto Blessing cult) by many of the same religious bigot that denounce the LDS Church. Is this a case of the abused becoming the abuser? For a religion that gets dumped on by the anti-cult movement, one would think you would be a little more Christ-like in tolerance towards the Church of Christ. Maybe you just hate God. Why is it that your only defense of mormonism is to attack somebody else? Is your hope simply to draw attention away from points that you cannot defend? Do you think that if somebody else has a questionable church, that makes yours legitimate? Let's say the church you're talking about is a cult, how does that change the fact that mormonism is a cult? Quote
Cal Posted February 7, 2004 Report Posted February 7, 2004 Peace--read my lips---your postings and citing of DC goes to the point that having experiences that somehow enrich our life. What does THAT fact have to do with whether we are REQUIRED to perform all these rituals (baptism etc) if God already knows our heart and our intentions--since that is all that was required for Alvin Smith to get to heaven? The precedent is set--God set it with Alvin. All that is required is that one have the intent and heart to do right! Is it starting to sink in yet?! Quote
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