Lds Women Affected By Pornography

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Dravin@Oct 1 2004, 10:48 PM

Yes, I'm pure evil.

Nice to see you finally recognizing the truth about yourself.

I've never denied it, do you have a problem with that?

[Guest bat]

What is the distinction between "softcore" and "hardcore" 'porn" anyways? A photograph that is intended to excite or entice a person's natural instincts is a "bad" thing? We should all just kill ourselves, that would eliminate all sins. yay for the wackos that all killed themselves so that they wouldn't offend their space alien that lives in the sky where the airplanes fly, but oddly, no airplanes have ever crashed into him. God has radar. Radar Love.

[Guest bat]

I've been on one lately, I hope you all will not take offense at my harsh comments. The LDS church has finally pushed through legistation in Utah that taxes the beer that I brew in my home. I am extremely angry and desire to move to Canada where the people are normal, even if they do not know how to spell words in English. I seriously despise having to pay money because a congregation that believes in implausible things decides that something relatively harmless is "a sin" and takes my money away from me. Just for reference, this is like being a mormonism, but having the prophet announce that joseph Smith was a delusional con-artist. It is offensive, and it is degrading.

[Dravin]

What is the distinction between "softcore" and "hardcore" 'porn" anyways?

Generally:

Softcore: Simply images of naked people, depending on whom you ask images of masturbation also fall under this. Something like Playboy would be classic softcore.

Hardcore: Images of people engaged in sexual acts.

It's a rather wide spread distinction.

I've been on one lately, I hope you all will not take offense at my harsh comments. The LDS church has finally pushed through legistation in Utah that taxes the beer that I brew in my home.

The anal retentive in me has to point out that the Church doesn't pass through legislation, the overwhelming LDS demographic of Utah does, a fine distinction I suppose but an important one, much as it may feel to a non-LDS, Utah doesn't quite qualify as a theocracy.

As for the tax, that is wrong. Personally I'm much against vice taxes, sales taxes are cool, but if you aren't selling the stuff you are making at home the government really should be keeping it's hands out of your wallet. Of course, I think you should be able to not only brew in your home just fine, but also distill if that is your desire and the government should keep it's nose out of things as long as you aren't doing it as a business, but that particular bit isn't state it's federal.

Of course this is more the subject for another thread.

[Franken]

Many women feel betrayed and demeaned when they find their spouses or significant others looking at/acting out to pornography

I would think that along with feeling betrayed and demeaned, what happens to your trust? How could you feel like you could trust your husband anymore after however long he had kept it a secret from you? I'd say that's one of the biggest impacts.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Franken@Oct 2 2004, 01:36 AM

Many women feel betrayed and demeaned when they find their spouses or significant others looking at/acting out to pornography

I would think that along with feeling betrayed and demeaned, what happens to your trust? How could you feel like you could trust your husband anymore after however long he had kept it a secret from you? I'd say that's one of the biggest impacts.

If it wasn't made such a taboo subject by religious fanatics, there wouldn't be any reason to keep it a secret, now would there?

If the female spouse likes to occasionally at pictures of women who aren't wearing clothing, should their male spouses freak out and go start support groups where they can badmouth their wives and assign made up illnesses too?

[john doe]

Surprising? Look at the number of his postings. While bat is often contentious, those of us who have been around for awhile know that he can also be endearing and thought provoking.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Snow]

Originally posted by bat@Oct 1 2004, 11:21 PM

Although I agree to a point that the fascination with the female body can be a bit of an addiction, it is nowhere in the league with gambling (an obsession of greed) or cocaine (a chemical addiction). The reason it consumes marriages and destroys intimacies is due to ignorance and narcissism . Making something as pure and simple as a human being that isn't wearing clothes (as god made them) a taboo subject is a disgrace to the evolution of mankind. Think about it for a minute...........you have seen your wife naked, no doubt. Did that make you go out and become a serial rapist or a mass murderer? Of course it didn't. With that fallacy out of the way, let us proceed.......

If you see a picture of a naked woman that is not your wife, does that make you unfaithful to her? Of course not. What if you enjoy seeing pictures of naked women? Is that bad? I don't think that it is. I think that the female body is incredibly beautiful. In fact, if I were to have to name one reason that I believe in god (which I don't) it would be the female body. What a creation! The female body is truly a thing to be admired and respected. The beautiful softness and the romantic curves. It is no wonder the human species has survived, with the sexual attraction between opposite sexes and all. If males did not desire females at all, you and I surely would not exist. Having a sex drive is not unnatural. Call it "a sin" if you will, but I cannot agree with you.

Bat,

1. Gambling addiction is not an obsession with greed. Look into it. It is the 'gambling' that they are addicted to, they are psychologically addicted to the charge they get from it - not greed.

2. Cocaine is not a chemical, as in physical, addiction. It is a psychological addiction.

3. Addiction is porn is a psychological addiction also.

If you want to make it a case of ohhh-the-female-form-is-a-work-of-aaarrrttt, whatever. We aren't talking about your enjoyment with girlie pictures. We also aren't talking about whether looking at Botticelli's Venus will cause you to murder and rape. We also aren't talking about whether looking at Maxxim is a sin.

I can't speak for the author of the thread but I imagine that her husband has been very unfaithful to her. Someone who is really addicted to porn is unfaithful by virtue of the time energy and passion, albeit twisted and unhealthy that they put into a sexual persuit that doesn't involve their spouse.

[Cal]

Originally posted by bat+Sep 30 2004, 05:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Sep 30 2004, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Sep 30 2004, 05:08 PM

Forever, don't listen to the many here who are exmormons, antimormons and are just trying to stir up trouble.  I wish you the best.

Don't listen to srm. He is the father of lies.

bat, you must remember, only TBM MORMONS have any wisdom! Every else is an infidel know-nothing!

[Cal]

Originally posted by ForeverMommyInUtah@Sep 30 2004, 08:41 PM

Thank you all for your responses. I can see that there are several here who do not believe in some things as I do. I have no problem with that whatsoever - in fact I think that is one of the wonderful things about our country. We have the freedom to voice our differing opinions and the ability to think and make decisions for ourselves.

I chose to share the group I have started (LDS_WAP) on this website for those people who also believe that pornography and/or masturbation aren't correct principles. I chose to start this group also so that I, and others, will have a SAFE and somewhat anonymous place to discuss these issues with like-minded people.

"Bat" - pornography has affected me because, as I stated in my original post, I recently discovered that my husband has had a long-term problem with it.

"Cal" - yes, masturbation is a personal thing, and discussing it is quite taboo in our society. However, for many reasons, active members of the LDS Church and its leaders feel that it is a sinful behavior. No my husband is not doing it in public, but in my opinion doing it in private is wrong too. You may feel differently about this issue and that is fine with me. You are entitled to your own opinion.

Also "Cal", just ending a marriage without a long term, serious effort to save the relationship is morally wrong, in my opinion. Don't you believe that people can change? People can repent and change their ways, and that is what I am hoping and praying for. It is what my husband is trying to do as well.

"Bizabra" thank you for your comments. It seems to me that you are not LDS, or if you are you aren't active. Because if you were, and you had just discovered your husband of 7 1/2 years had been involved in hard-core internet pornography and masturbation, you would be quite devastated too.

Back to you "Cal", I agree that far too many women try to change their men. However there is a difference between trying to get your husband to change his taste to more "elegant" clothing and music, for example, and trying to inspire him to live a more righteous life, as he had committed to do so when you were married. When you said in reference to women who whine and complain about their husbands "who choose him," that implies that someone chose a husband knowing fully all of the husband-to-be's involvements. Involvement with pornography and/or masturbation is something typically done in secret, especially among men who consider themselves religious. Even after having many discussions with my husband before we were married I NEVER had any inckling that he could have been involved in something like this. So the implications of your statement are that I shouldn't whine and complain because I knew full well what I got myself into when I married my husband, are incorrect. I had NO idea that he was involved in these things. If I had, I wouldn't have married him, at least not until he had resolved these issues and had a long period of abstaining from these behaviors.

"Franken" - I have no intention of sharing the circumstances of my situation on this public bulletin board. That is why I chose to create the private, semi-anonymous email group where these things can be discussed in a supportive environment. If you were sincere in your desire to know the circumstances of my situation then I thank you, and ask you to respect that I not share more here than I am comfortable doing.

That's all for now. Have a great night!

Kelley

Fact of the matter is you did chose him and you obviously didn't know him as well as you should have. Can people change. Only if THEY want to, not because you want them to. Fact is, he probably won't and you need to be ready to deal with that--again, either accept him as he is or high-tail it out of there, but don't just hang around making his life, and yours, miserable.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Faerie@Oct 1 2004, 02:51 PM

Good grief leave the poor woman alone!! Is it ANY of your business HOW she was affected? The church has a clear and simple stance against pornography: NO!! Many women feel betrayed and demeaned when they find their spouses or significant others looking at/acting out to pornography. To me it's a respect issue, I respect my husband enough not to lust after other men and not to go looking at naked men pictures *shudder*. He respects me enough to do the same.

If you want "religious" reasons, the web is full of quotes and talks regarding the issue. To you it's something simple as "looking at a naked woman, getting turned on, and wanting sex" which is fine and dandy as long as it's ME my husband is looking at and it's ME that's turning my husband on and that it's ME my husband is having sex w/ both physically and mentally. If he wants to look at other women and fantasize about them, he can do it as a single man. :)

My husband had a VERY bad pornography problem when I met him. Despite Cal's protests, there ARE some things in your "perfect" spouse that are simply unacceptable. I told my husband (then fiance) that if he loved me and respected me he would make a choice: a happy marriage or a cold magazine. It took a while and lots of support, but he broke the habit. He is now VERY thankful that I stood my ground on something that made me very uncomfortable as we've discussed this issue many times over the past 5 years of marriage. I didn't "change" my husband, he changed himself.

The way you guys are almost mocking this woman is unbelieveable. Telling her to just leave her husband and don't forget the child support? Good grief. Pornography addiction is devastating: but it's not the end of the world or the marriage. THAT is not an issue of "why can't you just accept your husband for who he is." It's a degrading "habit" and not one to be taken lightly.

Now, flame away bat and Cal

Ah, excuse me? (and bat)----this forum is open to the members on it--why does ForeverMommy think that she has found a place where no one is going to do anything but reaffirm what she already thinks. If she is not will to listen to other points of view, this the wrong place to post. Remember, this is General Discussion, not Gospel Forum (not that we would cut her any slack there either). No one cuts bat and I any slack, why should we expect another standard for her?

By the way, why did you marry a guy with a "porn" problem? That's like marrying someone with a drug problem--sure they can say they will quit--but why take the chance? If you think that porn is such a terrible vice, why chance that the person will go back to it? Pretty poor judgement on your part, sis.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Franken@Oct 2 2004, 01:36 AM

Many women feel betrayed and demeaned when they find their spouses or significant others looking at/acting out to pornography

I would think that along with feeling betrayed and demeaned, what happens to your trust? How could you feel like you could trust your husband anymore after however long he had kept it a secret from you? I'd say that's one of the biggest impacts.

The simple answer to that is for it NOT TO BE A SECRET! Untabboo this particular "vice", and recognize it as a normal and natural thing that humans do, some more than others. Keep it private, of course! But don't obsess over it and force it to become hidden and depraved. Simply masterbating and looking at people getting it on is considered a "sin" by some, but not by most. Keep in mind that this doesn't make the person depraved or perverted. Looking is far far different than going out and doing it.

If animals can become conditioned to particular behaviours in return for recieving a "reward" of some sort (usually food, heh!) what does it say about the morality of their behaviour? Would we say the chicken was "addicted" to pressing the bar in order to randomly recieve some grain? Does it have a "moral problem" because it has learned to experience some pleasure and reward by obsessively doing something as "abnormal" for a chicken as spending all it's time pusshing a bar? Is the chicken a "sinner"?

Habits can be broken, and it should be up to the person to decide if he/she has a habit that IS a problem, in the way that Snow describes: " Someone who is really addicted to porn is unfaithful by virtue of the time energy and passion, albeit twisted and unhealthy that they put into a sexual persuit that doesn't involve their spouse." If a partner is engaged in anything to the exclusion of their spouse, then they do have a problem and should work on that. Be it woodworking or hunting or shopping or knitting or tossing lawn darts or spending all their time on LDS chat boards! heh!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 2 2004, 07:58 AM

Ah, excuse me? (and bat)----this forum is open to the members on it--why does ForeverMommy think that she has found a place where no one is going to do anything but reaffirm what she already thinks. If she is not will to listen to other points of view, this the wrong place to post. Remember, this is General Discussion, not Gospel Forum (not that we would cut her any slack there either). No one cuts bat and I any slack, why should we expect another standard for her?

Because you and I and bat come here looking for conflict, we cause conflict and thrive on it. Other people come here for support or advice or whatever and shouldn't been treat like garbage by jerks.

By the way, why did you marry a guy with a "porn" problem?  That's like marrying someone with a drug problem--sure they can say they will quit--but why take the chance? If you think that porn is such a terrible vice, why chance that the person will go back to it? Pretty poor judgement on your part, sis.

Brillant thinking counselor, except she didn't know, did she. No she didn't. And how can we tell? Because she said so. Pretty poor response on your part, bro.

[Snow]

Originally posted by bizabra@Oct 2 2004, 10:44 AM

The simple answer to that is for it NOT TO BE A SECRET! Untabboo this particular "vice", and recognize it as a normal and natural thing that humans do, some more than others.

... and defecating in the gutter is a natural and normal thing that humans do. So what. Personally I like a certain amount of erotica but the point is that when a man and woman cleave unto one another and promise certain thing, good and decent people of character subjugate what's natural and funnel their passions into the marital union for the sake of a higher cause. If the two of them what to goof around together with porn, that's one thing, if a selfish spouse chooses to exclude the other and promote their own self-interests, at the expense of the marital bonds - that may be natural, but it isn't good.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 2 2004, 07:35 AM

I can't speak for the author of the thread but I imagine that her husband has been very unfaithful to her. Someone who is really addicted to porn is unfaithful by virtue of the time energy and passion, albeit twisted and unhealthy that they put into a sexual persuit that doesn't involve their spouse.

You know, if she didn't make such a stink about it, it wouldn't really be a problem, now would it? I've known people that watch sex films because they get a sexual charge out of it. I don't think that using such a media to improve a couple's sex life could possibly be a bad thing. She could have used this to her advantage and used it to strengthen their relationship but she made the conscious decision to use it to tear them apart and all the while whining that her husband is a bad person. I'm crying a river right now. My advice would to go to ebay and order a DVD that they would both like and they could watch it together. I'd bet my temple recommend that he wouldn't hold onto his "secret little obsession" if it wasn't a forbidden taboo subject anymore.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 2 2004, 11:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 2 2004, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bizabra@Oct 2 2004, 10:44 AM

The simple answer to that is for it NOT TO BE A SECRET!  Untabboo this particular "vice", and recognize it as a normal and natural thing that humans do, some more than others.

... and defecating in the gutter is a natural and normal thing that humans do. So what. Personally I like a certain amount of erotica but the point is that when a man and woman cleave unto one another and promise certain thing, good and decent people of character subjugate what's natural and funnel their passions into the marital union for the sake of a higher cause. If the two of them what to goof around together with porn, that's one thing, if a selfish spouse chooses to exclude the other and promote their own self-interests, at the expense of the marital bonds - that may be natural, but it isn't good.

You know what? I agree with you. She should take a more active interest in his hobbies and use this to strengthen their relationship instead of using it to tear them apart.

[Matt]

Forever, don't listen to the many here who are exmormons, antimormons and are just trying to stir up trouble. I wish you the best.

Ah. So if an ex-Mormon agreed with Forevermommy, then SRM would say: "Don't listen to them!"

It might be that Forevermommy is making the mistake of allowing rules thought up by elderly, middleclass white males rule her every thought.

I still remember with genuine horror when one of these elderly, middleclass white male visiting General Authorities told a group of us Deacons: "Boys! You have the priesthood! You have more power and authority in your little finger than your mother has in the whole of her body!"

However, it could be that her husband has kept asking her to perform acts that she was not comfortable with, and now discovers that he got these ideas from hardcore pornography.

And auto-erotic activities are prescribed by some doctors to help reduce prostrate gland problems. Even by some TBM doctors, apparently.

[Faerie]

first off:

Fairy's problem with her husbund's "addiction" to pictures of naked people is HER problem, not her husband's. The fact that she is so self centered as to make such an ultimatum is seriously screwed up. Earth to Fairy, the sun and planets do not revolve around your fat butt.

bat: you have some real issues, grow up...if resorting to calling a 7 month pregnant woman "fat" is your way of a "come back", you need counseling..or maybe some testosterone...it appears you are still stuck in the midst of puberty with childish name-calling and antics...

second off:

By the way, why did you marry a guy with a "porn" problem? That's like marrying someone with a drug problem--sure they can say they will quit--but why take the chance? If you think that porn is such a terrible vice, why chance that the person will go back to it? Pretty poor judgement on your part, sis.

correction: i married a man with a FORMER porn problem. why would i pass up a potential happy marriage because of one thing that i did not agree with? many people ask their future spouses to stop smoking, to stop drinking: i asked mine to respect ME and he did....he "broke" his "addiction" on his own...i did not "nag" him nor did we fuss and fight about it...i simply stated that if he wanted to marry me, he had to give up porn...it was HIS choice and he made that choice..my husband does not have a problem with porn, in fact he abhores the very thought of it now and feels horrible that he ever had a "problem" to begin with, much the way many people feel horrible about smoking for 20 years or for stealing candy from a store...

i think i made an EXCELLENT judgement as i have a very, VERY happy marriage w/ a wonderful son on the way...porn is not an issue in our marriage as that was something that was taken care of before i said "i do"...you act as if i FORCED him to give it up..i gave him a choice, and he made a choice..don't like it? oh boo hoo...

[Dravin]

Ah. So if an ex-Mormon agreed with Forevermommy, then SRM would say: "Don't listen to them!"

Actually if you read what he said carefully he put some qualifications in there, it was council to not listen to antimormon and exmormon trolls, personally I'd just council against listening (or rather not take them seriously) to trolls regardless of any labels they may or may not claim.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Dravin@Oct 2 2004, 10:06 PM

Ah. So if an ex-Mormon agreed with Forevermommy, then SRM would say: "Don't listen to them!"

Actually if you read what he said carefully he put some qualifications in there, it was council to not listen to antimormon and exmormon trolls, personally I'd just council against listening (or rather not take them seriously) to trolls regardless of any labels they may or may not claim.

I think that missionaries are trolls, would you advise people to not listen to them?

[Dravin]

I think that missionaries are trolls

My condolences on your ignorance.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Dravin@Oct 2 2004, 10:33 PM

I think that missionaries are trolls

My condolences on your ignorance.

Do they not prey on the misfortunes or spiritual emptiness of others to convert people to their religion? Think about it and get back to me.

[Matt]

As it happens Dravin, I can recall when SRM used to Troll on the RFM ex-Mormon board. And as a former moderator over there, I DO know that SRM used to troll there. Of course, he would seen it as being a witness to the "Gospel", we called it trolling for converts.

[Cal]

Originally posted by bizabra+Oct 2 2004, 10:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Oct 2 2004, 10:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Franken@Oct 2 2004, 01:36 AM

Many women feel betrayed and demeaned when they find their spouses or significant others looking at/acting out to pornography

I would think that along with feeling betrayed and demeaned, what happens to your trust? How could you feel like you could trust your husband anymore after however long he had kept it a secret from you? I'd say that's one of the biggest impacts.

The simple answer to that is for it NOT TO BE A SECRET! Untabboo this particular "vice", and recognize it as a normal and natural thing that humans do, some more than others. Keep it private, of course! But don't obsess over it and force it to become hidden and depraved. Simply masterbating and looking at people getting it on is considered a "sin" by some, but not by most. Keep in mind that this doesn't make the person depraved or perverted. Looking is far far different than going out and doing it.

If animals can become conditioned to particular behaviours in return for recieving a "reward" of some sort (usually food, heh!) what does it say about the morality of their behaviour? Would we say the chicken was "addicted" to pressing the bar in order to randomly recieve some grain? Does it have a "moral problem" because it has learned to experience some pleasure and reward by obsessively doing something as "abnormal" for a chicken as spending all it's time pusshing a bar? Is the chicken a "sinner"?

Habits can be broken, and it should be up to the person to decide if he/she has a habit that IS a problem, in the way that Snow describes: " Someone who is really addicted to porn is unfaithful by virtue of the time energy and passion, albeit twisted and unhealthy that they put into a sexual persuit that doesn't involve their spouse." If a partner is engaged in anything to the exclusion of their spouse, then they do have a problem and should work on that. Be it woodworking or hunting or shopping or knitting or tossing lawn darts or spending all their time on LDS chat boards! heh!

I agree with most of what you said, except the part about doing anything to the exclusion of your spouse. Are you suggesting that I have to include my spouse in EVERYTHING I do? Most people have some hobbies or activities that they do that is their own thing. I love watching my favorite college team play football. My wife doesn't really like football. She doesn't care that I do, and has not problem with it. We spend plenty of time do certain things together--movies, going out to eat etc. Why can't couple have some activities that are their own thing. In fact, I think it strange and unhealthy NOT to.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 2 2004, 11:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 2 2004, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 2 2004, 07:58 AM

Ah, excuse me? (and bat)----this forum is open to the members on it--why does ForeverMommy think that she has found a place where no one is going to do anything but reaffirm what she already thinks. If she is not will to listen to other points of view, this the  wrong place to post. Remember, this is General Discussion, not Gospel Forum (not that we would cut her any slack there either). No one cuts bat and I any slack, why should we expect another standard for her?

Because you and I and bat come here looking for conflict, we cause conflict and thrive on it. Other people come here for support or advice or whatever and shouldn't been treat like garbage by jerks.

By the way, why did you marry a guy with a "porn" problem?  That's like marrying someone with a drug problem--sure they can say they will quit--but why take the chance? If you think that porn is such a terrible vice, why chance that the person will go back to it? Pretty poor judgement on your part, sis.

Brillant thinking counselor, except she didn't know, did she. No she didn't. And how can we tell? Because she said so. Pretty poor response on your part, bro.

Really dumb response, Snow.

Again, rather than deal with the substance of the comment, you simply characterize it according to your own personal slant, rather than showing WHY, it is wrong. Bad form. For example, why is voicing our opinion about her decisions treating her like "garbage". You think she is so weak and helpless that she can't cope with varying opinions? Maybe it is your condecension to her that treats her like "garbage".

On the second comment. Of course she didn't know, bozo. :) That's my whole point. She should have. Yes, many of us have made the mistake of not knowing the character of the person we were marrying. It's a common human failing. But, is STILL a failing. I wonder how long she went with him before getting married.

I'll bet it was less that two years. In my experience, you can't get much insight into a person's real character with out at least 2 years close association. People tend to hide their problems well for about a year. But, in time, it comes out. That is why no one should get married without going with the person for a couple of years. Otherwise, it is a crap shoot.