Pride In Eternal Marriages

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[Ray]

I think this is the main point:

Of course, if the LDS Church is true, then they do need to go to the Temple to REALLY be married for Eternity.

Other people may believe they are going to be married forever, but they really have no belief concerning how that will happen. Or if they do, I have yet to hear it.

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[Cyra]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Oct 28 2004, 05:20 PM

I am not in any way trying to diminish the role of Temple Marriages...I am in fact planning on having one.

But something keeps bothering me.

You hear Missionaries say it to investigators. You hear our Church Leaders say it to engaged couples.

"In our Church we don't say "Until death do you part". We say "For Time and all Eternity"."

Basically saying "our way is better".

They seem to take too much pride in this. What bothers me is that they are mistaken. In other Churches, they MIGHT say "until death do you part". But if they do, that statement does not exclude the possibility that they will return together forever at the Resurrection! So if one believes in the Resurrection, they believe that their marriage will still be for "time and eternity". As for those who say "as long as you both shall live"...same thing...If we are resurrected, we will live forever. So to the Christian ears, that statement basically means "for time and eternity, which is as long as you both shall live". It is not spoken, but it does not disqualify these people from eternal marriage.

So it bothers me that they state that we are the only Church that BELIEVES in Eternal Marriage. It seems to me, that most Christians believe they will be with their families forever, regardless of what is SAID in the wedding ceremony.

Of course, if the LDS Church is true, then they do need to go to the Temple to REALLY be married for Eternity. And I have no problem with people saying that we believe we have the monopoly on Eternal Marriage in order to gain converts or make an engaged couple happy.

I just think it is wrong to tell other Christians that they do not believe in Eternal Marriage, when we really don't know what they believe in.

I know I can't stop people from telling other Christians what they believe, but I just felt a need to rant

I am presently in my late 40's, was Methodist until age 25 when I joined the Baptist church. I left the Baptist church for a Presbyterian church some 10 years later and 2 years ago became a Latter Day Saint, so I think that I am qualified to speak on what "other" churches believe.

When the wedding vows say "until death" that is exactly what they mean. When we die and are resurrected, we are spirits and we recognize and continue to know and love our friends and families but there no belief that we continue our 'earthly' relationships with them. The concept of eternal marriage was very foreign to me and took quite a bit of argument to get me to believe it. Although I know know we have a prophet in our time and did not have a problem with most of the LDS doctrine that I was taught, I did have a struggle with some of it. I continue to struggle with some of it because I know it in my heart but can't seem to wrap my brain around it. You would probably have to have spent the greater part of your life in another belief system to understand that statement.

Cyra

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[Guest Unorthodox]

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[shanstress70]

I had a non-Mormon upbringing, and I was always taught in church and Sunday school that we would be with our families in Heaven. And my wedding vows didn't state the words, "Till death do us part." I am just as certain as anyone can be (LDS included) that I will be with my husband in the afterlife.

[Cyra]

Unorthodox:<<Anyway, maybe I overreacted to those people who boast about eternal marriages.

Sometimes, I just feel a need to make sure other people are given respect, but I shouldn't get so upset.

I think I just need to accept these prideful teachings as part of LDS culture and not concern myself with it.>>

Maybe when someone speaks their belief with a firm knowledge and faith, you mis-interpret that as being pride. Just my guess.

Cyra

[Ray]

HOW is not important to most people. LDS are very preoccupied with rituals and rules...in other words "How does it happen?"

That is why we have such an extensive doctrine explaining everything. Well, not EVERYTHING...there are a few things we take for granted...for example, we do not worry about HOW God created the universe.

Other religions don't ask how it happens. They just say "it happens."

I think it’s important to understand and be able to explain how things happen, particularly those things that I think we need to be concerned about. If we don’t understand how those things happen, and if we can’t explain our reasoning to others, then how can we or they honestly expect ANYTHING to happen?

On this issue, for instance, some people may think that their marriage will last forever if they want it to last forever because God will somehow take care of it, but if that’s as far as they go to try to understand how God will take care of it, how can they ever know whether God has already taken care of it and has authorized people to explain what people need to do to help make it happen?

Do you think God will make something happen simply because it’s what we want? Is that as far as your thinking goes? Why should God honor what we want simply because we want it? Even if we’re talking about something we want that we believe God also wants for us, such as marriage, do you think God will define marriage and honor our marriage commitments the way we do simply because that’s the way we want things to be? If we decide that we want to define marriage as a union of 2 people of the same sex, for instance, do you think God will define marriage that way and honor a marriage like that simply because that’s they way we want it? There must be some understanding of the procedures for how things should be, if only in the mind of God, but if it’s in the mind of God, why can’t He reveal His mind and will to others?

Honestly, I think some people are waiting for God to tell them everything in person and that until that time they really can’t know anything. But I say that God authorizes people to declare His will to us and that we will be held accountable for the information He gives us through them.

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[Guest Unorthodox]

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[Ray]

Pop quiz: What is pride?

Everybody who gives the right answer will get 1000 points. :)

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 29 2004, 12:15 PM

Pop quiz: What is pride?

Everybody who gives the right answer will get 1000 points. :)

Pride can mean many different things:

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.

2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.

3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.

4. A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.

5. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.

6. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.

7. Mettle or spirit in horses.

8. A company of lions. See Synonyms at flock1.

9. A flamboyant or impressive group: a pride of acrobats.

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[Ray]

Ray: I think it’s important to understand and be able to explain how things happen, particularly those things that I think we need to be concerned about. If we don’t understand how those things happen, and if we can’t explain our reasoning to others, then how can we or they honestly expect ANYTHING to happen?

Unorthodox: So please explain to me HOW our bodies will be resurrected and exalted, because, according to what you are saying, without an explanation you can not honestly expect resurrection and exaltation.

We will be resurrected as Jesus was resurrected. That’s how. Our spirits will reunite with our bodies and we will then ascend to our heavenly Father for judgment. If Jesus intercedes in our behalf and forgives us for our sins, we will then be exalted to the same degree of glory as Jesus and our heavenly Father, where we will then reign with them forever.

Ray: Do you think God will make something happen simply because it’s what we want?  Is that as far as your thinking goes?  Why should God honor what we want simply because we want it?  Even if we’re talking about something we want that we believe God also wants for us, such as marriage, do you think God will define marriage and honor our marriage commitments the way we do simply because that’s the way we want things to be?

Unorthodox: No...I am saying that a person who gets married in a Church that they believe is legitimate might believe that their marriage will continue in the resurrection, despite the words "until death do you part". It is a perfectly logical belief, because in that case, death can be considered a temporary interruption in the marriage...but they will be joined again after the Resurrection.

I don't believe this, but other Christians MIGHT.

And why do you say their faith is just wishful thinking, while your faith is true understanding?

Because their faith isn’t based on knowledge they’ve received from God. By their own admission they have stated that they don’t have a true understanding, and if God had helped them understand it they would know and be able to explain it.

Faith is faith.

Do we need to have another discussion about what Faith is now?

In it’s simplest definition, faith is another word for assurance, or being sure about something. If you’re sure about something, you should be able to explain what you’re sure about and how you can be so sure. If you simply state that you’re sure because you’re sure, you’re really not saying anything, but if you say you’re sure because God has assured you of something, then God must have assured you that a certain idea is true and you should then be able to explain it. An assurance from God is Faith, but it must be based on an idea, otherwise there is nothing to be assured of.

If anyone gains a complete understanding of how these things work, it ceases to be religion and becomes science. Is Christianity a science?

I guess that depends on your definition of science, doesn’t it, but if you define science as an observance of things that can be seen and understood, then I would say Yes, Christianity is a science. As the apostle James stated, I will show you my Faith by my works.

I know YOU believe that you KNOW the truth, but you have yet to give us scientific proof that you know.

I believe I have and you simply fail to recognize it.

Personally, I can be LDS without the scientific proof.

The scientific proofs I was given are for my eyes only, and you must obtain the same proofs for yourself from God. Once you do, you and I will both be in agreement and our works will be the same as that of God. Until you do, we are likely to disagree again.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 29 2004, 01:00 PM

Because their faith isn’t based on knowledge they’ve received from God. By their own admission they have stated that they don’t have a true understanding, and if God had helped them understand it they would know and be able to explain it.

Ray, this is bull! Some people from other religions have received assurance from God that they believe the correct thing, and that you are believing the wrong thing. And yes, they are SURE of it... just like you are sure that it is correct. That's why we have different religions.

Let me put it to you this way: As sure as you are that your religious beliefs are correct, I am sure that they are wrong. If not, I would still be LDS.

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Oct 29 2004, 01:11 PM

Many (if not most) LDS people do not claim to have had the same sort of intimate conversations with God that you have. They are probably basing their belief in Eternal Marriage on nothing more than hope or maybe a feeling.

Which is the same way the non-LDS person does.

Actually, some non-LDS people say they get messages from God as well - just like Ray (and Starsky) claims to. And then some get the messages not so directly, but through prayer, just as MOST LDS people do.

[Guest Unorthodox]

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[shanstress70]

True... true.

[Ray]

Pride can mean many different things:

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.

A person with pride usually has too much self-respect, sensing that their dignity or value is higher or “above” that of other people. To me, that is not proper. A proper sense is to see the dignity and value of others as equal to our own, which I define as humility. In other words, pride and humility both refer to a sense of dignity or value, or self-respect, but one sense is proper and one is not. I consider pride and humility as opposites.

2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.

The key thought is the degree to which one senses the value of something, or takes pleasure or satisfaction in something. To one degree is proper, to another degree is not.

Btw, when our heavenly Father praised Jesus He referred to Him as His beloved son in whom He was well “pleased”, not in whom He was proud or had pride.

3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.

This is in agreement with how the scriptures define pride, so this is how I define pride. In the scriptures, the word pride is always associated with an unrighteous or improper sense of one’s own opinion of self or something else.

4. A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.

See my response to definition 2.

5. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.

See my response to definition 2. Again, the key is in the degree to which someone senses the value of something, or sensing that something is more valuable than it should properly be considered.

6. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.

See my response to definition 3.

7. Mettle or spirit in horses.

See my response to definition 2.

8. A company of lions. See Synonyms at flock1.

This is an alternate definition that has nothing to do with the other definitions. I think it would be best if a word was defined as only one thing to help avoid confusion, but such is not the nature of our language.

9. A flamboyant or impressive group: a pride of acrobats.

I think the key thought here is that the group or whatever else is taken to an extreme, beyond what is normal or commonly acceptable.

Based on the definitions above, I think there are only 2 key thoughts to understanding the definition of the word pride.

1) sensing value in something to an improper or extreme degree, beyond that which is proper or common

2) a group or company, such as a pride of lions.

Congratulations, shanstress, you get 9000 points!

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Oct 29 2004, 11:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Oct 29 2004, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 29 2004, 01:00 PM

Because their faith isn’t based on knowledge they’ve received from God.  By their own admission they have stated that they don’t have a true understanding, and if God had helped them understand it they would know and be able to explain it.

Ray, this is bull! Some people from other religions have received assurance from God that they believe the correct thing, and that you are believing the wrong thing. And yes, they are SURE of it... just like you are sure that it is correct. That's why we have different religions.

Let me put it to you this way: As sure as you are that your religious beliefs are correct, I am sure that they are wrong. If not, I would still be LDS.

Taken out of context. I was referring to people who say they really don't know HOW their marriage will continue forever, other than believed that it would somehow happen.

Btw, if you have learned something from God that is so much better than what I and other LDS have learned from God, please share it with us. You people who keep coming back to this board doing nothing but disagreeing with us are doing nothing to show us a “better way”, so what do you really have to offer?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 29 2004, 02:17 PM

Taken out of context. I was referring to people who say they really don't know HOW their marriage will continue forever, other than believed that it would somehow happen.

Btw, if you have learned something from God that is so much better than what I and other LDS have learned from God, please share it with us. You people who keep coming back to this board doing nothing but disagreeing with us are doing nothing to show us a “better way”, so what do you really have to offer?

They (we) believe that God will make it happen... it's simple really. He can do anything!

My whole point is that you are so sure that you are right, but others are very sure they are right. What's the diff? It's just a difference of beliefs, Ray, and that's why this is such a great country!

So to you, I have nothing to offer, since I can't show you PROOF of a better way? What do I have to offer? Same as every other person here... ideas to ponder - whether you agree or disagree.

Happy Halloween!

[Ray]

My whole point is that you are so sure that you are right, but others are very sure they are right.

…others are very sure they are right about what? They aren’t saying anything other than “God can do anything!”, and they don’t even stop to think about asking God if this is the way He has decided to do it… on the idea of eternal marriage, which is what this thread is about.

What's the diff? It's just a difference of beliefs, Ray, and that's why this is such a great country!

There isn’t a difference of beliefs, this is a difference between someone who has a belief and someone who doesn’t… about how a marriage can be eternal. Btw, I think I have to keep spelling it out for you to help keep you from taking my comments out of context.

So to you, I have nothing to offer, since I can't show you PROOF of a better way?

Heh, not only can you not show me any proof, you can’t even offer an explanation for how it can be any other way. And yet you dare to say that I am wrong? How on Earth can you honestly say that?

What do I have to offer? Same as every other person here... ideas to ponder - whether you agree or disagree.

You mean the idea about how I am wrong? Is that the idea you want me to ponder? Other than that, I can’t see anything else that you have offered… on this idea of how a marriage becomes eternal.

Happy Halloween

And a happy 'All Saints' day to you! :)