D&C 76:89 and the Three Kingdoms

[HoosierGuy]

I'm teaching the Gospel Principles class this Sunday and it's over the Final Judgment and the three Kingdoms. I have a few questions...

What does D&C 76:89 mean -

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Is this saying that even the Telestial Kingdom will be more glorious than

we can imagine? I know the Celestial Kingdom will be more glorious than we can imagine, but does that go for the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms too? Not that I care about those two lesser kingdoms. I want to go to the Celestial Kingdom and Exaltation. But for the discussion on Sunday, I would like to know about those other two Kingdoms.

Thanks!

[BenRaines]

There is a quote somewhere that says. If we could see the telestial kingdom we would kill ourselves to go there because it is so much better there than it is here.

Ben Raines

[ninjormon]

The telestial kingdom will be part of the literal kingdom of heaven, encompassed by the glory of the celestial and terrestrial kingdoms, it will be a lesser glory but it will have a degree of glory. The people that end up there will have been taught and learned either in this life or in the spirit world and accept the principals of the gospel and live right, there they will have an understanding that they lack in this life. There will be order and they will work together. They will know many things that are unkown to us right now, they will have a full understanding of grace and the goodness of God that they lacked here. I dont know exactly where it will be but the state will be better than where we are now to the point that it is much more lovely and desirable than anything on earth but we know that there is still something better.

[skylercollins]

I'm teaching the Gospel Principles class this Sunday and it's over the Final Judgment and the three Kingdoms. I have a few questions...

What does D&C 76:89 mean -

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Is this saying that even the Telestial Kingdom will be more glorious than

we can imagine? I know the Celestial Kingdom will be more glorious than we can imagine, but does that go for the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms too? Not that I care about those two lesser kingdoms. I want to go to the Celestial Kingdom and Exaltation. But for the discussion on Sunday, I would like to know about those other two Kingdoms.

Thanks!

I googled and found this article that has several GA quotes on that section. Page 4 has the relevant quotes for this thread.

http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/PDF/Quotes/Telestial.pdf

[Guest tomk]

I agree, our focus should be on the Celestial Kingdom.

Why do the other Kingdoms exist? Because God is in the salvation business, not the condemnation business. He wants to give us the best possible life after the resurrection that we can have. A gift is a gift is a gift. All we choose is how GOOD a gift we are willing to receive. Not everyone is willing to humble themselves. A full third of the hosts of heaven chose NOT to continue on to mortality!! It stands to reason that, due to their influence, many here will not keep their second estate.

The thing I would stress is - WE choose it. WE do, not God!! If we "end-up" in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms, it will be by a wide margin. We WILL belong in those Kingdoms! Those who suggest that we will be able to progress from Kingdom to Kingdom after we are resurrected do not understand the scriptures. For when we are resurrected, we are resurrected according to the portion of the law we were willing to live here in mortality. Those who obeyed a Celestial Law will be resurrected as inhabitants of THAT Kingdom! Those who obeyed a Terrestial or Telestial law will be resurrected as inhabitants of THOSE Kingdoms! They cannot come up, because they cannot dwell there.

That is what these scriptures mean:

D&C 88: 26, 28-32, 49, 96

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

• • •

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

Which I interpret to mean:

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory [HERE IN MORTALITY] shall then receive of the same [WHEN YOU ARE RESURRECTED], even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

• • •

49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.

• • •

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

Edited December 2, 2008 by tomk

[rameumptom]

Yes, the Telestial Kingdom surpasses our understanding in how glorious it is.

That said, the caveat is mentioned in D&C 76. These are those who will be cast down to hell first. They will the ones who will suffer in Spirit Prison, even as Christ suffered (D&C 19), because they will not repent of their own accord.

Moroni told us that they would be happier with the damned souls in hell, than standing in the presence of God (Mormon 9:3-4), and Alma stated they would wish the rocks would cover them up and hide them from God's presence (Alma 11-12).

Their suffering will be similar to Alma's, as he suffered for 3 days and 3 nights in "exquisite" pain, until he finally was compelled to fully repent. It has been suggested that some are so sinful and stubborn that it could take them a thousand years to come around to fully embracing Christ's atonement and being released from Spirit Prison/Hell. Only then do they become candidates for a kingdom of glory.

Edited December 2, 2008 by rameumptom

[ninjormon]

Basically heaven is heaven no matter what kingdom you are in, the terrestrial glory is what I think most christians think of when thinking of heaven, we think of it as the celestial kingdom, no one wants to go to the telestial kingdom and isnt something we shoot for.

The earth will return to paridisical glory and house the celestial kingdom, where exactly the terrestrial/telestial kingdom will be geographically or logistically I dont know but it will be part of the kingdom. The glory it has will basically be light that is shined from the celestial kingdom. I dont remember the scripture but in the bible it says that the glory of God will light the kingdom. Think how the moon reflects the light, kinda like that but spiritually.

Anyone that accepts Christ in the spirit world and chooses to abide by the laws set forth in the kingdom of heaven will be allowed to the telestial kingdom as long as they did not do certain things with a certain mindset or spirit here. Men can teach children that certain things are correct to the point that they believe that they are doing the right thing, then they do nthinkable things, but they basically get a second chance as long as they choose to do what is right for the rest of eternity, we dont choose who gets that chance or not obviously.

[kodabear]

There is a quote somewhere that says. If we could see the telestial kingdom we would kill ourselves to go there because it is so much better there than it is here.

Ben Raines

Joseph Smith said it

[HoosierGuy]

Joseph Smith said it

Hey, I taught the class today and said - I read some place about a quote

that goes like "If we could see the telestial kingdom we would kill ourselves to go there because it is so much better there than it is here."

One of the members smiled and said that sounds like a Mormon myth. The regular Gospel Principles teacher said it didn’t sound like it was official Church scripture or something.

Did Joseph Smith really say that? Can you find the quote online?

Thanks!

Oh, also became a Ward Missionary today and my Bishop and Stake President set me apart! I tell you - the words my Bishop speaks are so powerful. I've been asking myself - when I get the Melchizedek Priesthood, how will I ever give powerful blessings like my two Bishops give? They are so full of powerful words it amazes me.

[HoosierGuy]

Ok, just talked to a missionary on the phone. I asked him and he said he heard his dad say that before but he's been hesitant to mention it while on his mission because he doesn’t want people to say - ok, I'll kill myself to get to the Telestial Kingdom.

[rameumptom]

The Church Patriarch emeritus, Eldred G. Smith made this statement, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere outside his statement.

The Lord has told us of three degrees of glory. There are three “heavens,” as it is often referred to. We call them the telestial, terrestrial, and the celestial. I cannot for a minute conceive the telestial being hell, either, because it is considered a heaven, a glory. The Prophet Joseph Smith told us that if we could get one little glimpse into the telestial glory even, the glory is so great that we would be tempted to commit suicide to get there (Eldred G. Smith, BYU Speeches, March 10, 1964, p. 4).

I believe the members tend to make a misquote of this, as it suggests we would be tempted, not that we would necessarily do it.

[ninjormon]

As far as the telestial kingdom and suicide, i'll explain, the telestial kingdom is reserved for all those that did not try to live righteously but still accept Christ and baptism whether through immersion or proxy, baptism for the dead will go on throughout the millenium. The telestial kingdom is reserved for killers, liars, adulterors, and such. So therefore even a person worthy of entering the celestial kingdom by not enduring to the end and rather taking the easy way out they fall. At work a man said it looks like its time to get ready to die for what you believe in, my reply was that's the easy way out, living for what you believe is hard. He was stunned but it is true. The purpose of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, this should be our goal as well, Peter said but I dont remember the scripture, since I have been saved I must now work to save others. (paraphrased) It is our work to try to help these people to recieve eternal life not just to live forever.

The only thing that I have a problem understanding being a convert is I was always taught that damnation was being seperated from God. People that go to the telestial kingdom are dammed in progress, so damned is damned right? Heavenly Father will not go to the telestial kingdom so there is still seperation, can someone explain this to me?

As far as the Priesthood Blessings you may not be a great orator at first but that is not the reason for the blessings. Through time in service you will get to know and understand how to feel/hear the Spirit more strongly and know the persons needs and purpose beyond what they may understand at the time. Think about the person, type of blessing, and situation before the blessing but dont think so hard you start to plan the blessing out. Take your time but dont try to use a lot of words just because it sounds good. The rest will fall into place. Eventually you will develop more gifts, the best way is to practice by doing. Just like you are not expected to know everything in order to join the Church your faith is enough and you will grow.

[blinda]

That glory granted the inhabitants of the lowest

kingdom of glory is called telestial glory. In the

infinite mercy of a beneficent Father it surpasses all

mortal understanding, and yet it is in no way

comparable to the glory of the terrestrial and

celestial worlds. --Bruce R. McKonkie

I think this gives a pretty good answer. Yes, compared to our mortal and fallen state, the telestial kingdom will be incredible. After all, the earth as we know it is heavily under the power of Satan. The telestial kingdom will certainly have imperfect people, but there will be no adversary. I can't imagine how glorious that would be.

But still, the telestial kingdom is only the beginning. We are aiming not just for the absence of the adversary, but the presence of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. That is what the Celestial Kingdom offers. That is eternal life. So, even if the telestial kingdom is better than this life, of course we shouldn't just aim for better--we should aim for the best.

[Guest tomk]

God will have a "connection" to the Terr and Tel Kingdoms through the ministration of His Beloved Son and the Holy Ghost.

Heavenly Father speaks

Christ speaks the same words

The Holy Ghost "speaks" the same words (the words of the Father and the Son)

They are united in purpose and love. In all things except being one substance.

So, when the Savior ministers to the Terrestrial Kingdom, it will be as if He were speaking the words of the Father.

Same with the Holy Ghost ministering to the Telestial Kingdom.

=============

If you run this backwards -- what is the mission of the Holy Ghost? To lead us to Christ.

What is the mission of Christ? To reunite us with Father.

This seems to suggest that there can be progression between Kingdoms.

I know that the Church does not teach this doctrine. Maybe because it's not true, or maybe because they don't want us settling for Telestial glory.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

[kodabear]

The important aspect of the celestial kingdon and exaltation is the have enternal increase, which can only occur when a man and a woman meet all the criteria for entering exaltation in the celestial kindgom. Any thing else doe not allow man and woman to have eternal increase. This as I understand it.

[kodabear]

I am a convert to the church of 45 years. I thought a one time that I knew pretty much all there was to know about the church. At this point in my life (68y.o.) I have just scratched the surface. You learn through reading the scriptures, study the words of the prophets, and mostley from pondering and prayer, with answers coming through the Holy Ghost.

That is why were are constantly instructed to read and ponder the scriptures. I once heard it said, that through the Holy Ghost you can learn more in 5 minutes, than in all the books in the world. Satament attributed to Joseph Smith. It come's in the form of a testimoney by spirit to spirit, which is the true form of heavenly language.

[rameumptom]

Eternal increase is just one portion of being exalted. It is to have "all that the Father hath" (D&C 84), which is not available to those who accept less. It is to enter entirely and fully into a loving relationship with the Godhead. It is to receive all of the rights, powers, and privileges that God has. It is to receive a full inheritance, powers, dominions, kingdoms, and principalities. It is to receive all knowledge and all truth and light. It is to receive the fullness of the priesthood and its keys and authorities and powers. It is to be made "kings and priests unto God and his Father" by Jesus Christ (Rev 1:5-6), and to receive all the blessings in conjunction with our eternal spouse, as these things are only conferred upon those who have received the Patriarchal Priesthood in the temple sealing.

[Webster]

There is a quote somewhere that says. If we could see the telestial kingdom we would kill ourselves to go there because it is so much better there than it is here.

No offense, but I believe that 'quote' is a Mormon myth and not reliable. If anyone can prove me wrong, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I propose that we stop perpetuating that idea. I had a friend who has tried to locate the quote, and I've tried for a while too, and we can't find the original.

[Webster]

More information on the idea of killing yourself to get to the telestial kingdom: Life On Gold Plates: Committing Suicide to get to the Telestial Kingdom. This site takes Patriarch emeritus Eldred G. Smith's quote (mentioned above in comment #11) and works backward from there. Very interesting.

[JohnnyRudick]

There is a quote somewhere that says. If we could see the telestial kingdom we would kill ourselves to go there because it is so much better there than it is here.

Ben Raines

I see this happen all the time.

With things people say.

Things I say. (and it gets me in trouble alot tooooo;-(

And things in Scripture.

I have seen this quote years ago and when I saw it I just assumed, with some thought, a little prayer and some serious Scripture reading that the inference is. . .

"If you were to see [the glories of] the telestial kingdom, [and if you thought you could get there that way, you] would kill ourselves to go there. . ."

Sometimes we assume that the hearer understands the unsaid thoughts behind that which is said.

Just another thought;-)

Bro. Rudick