Does Evil Really Exist?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 4 2004, 01:05 PM

Amillia still made some good points, though, and you probably would have done more good if you acknowledged those good points instead of referring to everything she said as “imbecilic blather”. But I guess some people just have a hard time exhibiting both grace and truth.

Actually I wasn't referring to anything Peace said. I didn't read her commentary. I was referring to the internet myth she posted and attributed to Albert Einstein.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 4 2004, 01:22 PM

I don’t think the existence of God was ever in question, at least not in Amillia’s post. The question was whether or not evil exists and whether or not God created it.

No, read the post. Einstein (albeit a falsified Einstein) sought to disprove the professor's argument that God does not exist. Recall that the the professor's argument was one of theodicy - how can a just, all-powerful, all-good god (the Christian God) be the author of evil?

But actually in a larger sense, that was not the point the maudlin little tale; the screamingly obvious point illustrated in Einstein's proof of the God's existence (illogical though it was) was that though God we can all just love one another and isn't that so very sweet.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 2 2004, 10:11 AM

Thanks for sharing this with us Amillia. :)

Thank you for showing me that someone around here can open a door without slamming it first in your face. This place sure has a lot of people with issues.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 4 2004, 02:05 PM

Good point, Snow.  The opposite of good is evil, but the absence of either one is innocence.  Amillia still made some good points, though, and you probably would have done more good if you acknowledged those good points instead of referring to everything she said as “imbecilic blather”.  But I guess some people just have a hard time exhibiting both grace and truth.

I believe the main message Amillia was trying to convey is that God did not create evil, and that evil exists as a result of people who do things without the love of God in their hearts, or with the absence of God in their actions.  Amillia didn’t mention the idea of people doing things, but because people ordinarily do things, what they do is considered to be either good or evil depending on the nature of the force prompting them to action.  And btw, I’m referring to people who know good or evil and are therefore no longer innocent.

Or maybe Amillia only wanted to convey the idea that professors don’t know everything?

Thank you Ray. Another ray of sunshine on the board. You and Strawberry made it worth dropping in. "I'll be going now."

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 4 2004, 07:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Nov 4 2004, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 4 2004, 01:22 PM

I don’t think the existence of God was ever in question, at least not in Amillia’s post.  The question was whether or not evil exists and whether or not God created it.

No, read the post. Einstein (albeit a falsified Einstein) sought to disprove the professor's argument that God does not exist. Recall that the the professor's argument was one of theodicy - how can a just, all-powerful, all-good god (the Christian God) be the author of evil?

But actually in a larger sense, that was not the point the maudlin little tale; the screamingly obvious point illustrated in Einstein's proof of the God's existence (illogical though it was) was that though God we can all just love one another and isn't that so very sweet.

I think you’re reading too much into things and saying things that the person we’re talking about did not say. I do see how you could suppose the professor could have had that question in mind, but let’s stick with the question the professor asked instead of trying to read his mind. Okay?

The question he asked was: Did God create everything that exists?

Now, he might have really wanted to understand the nature of the God his class professed to believe in, assuming they believed in any God at all, but we should first answer his question before trying to tell him everything else we know about God.

And FYI, the correct answer to that question is No. God did not create everything that exists, and there are many things in existence that are just as eternal as God is. And there are other things in existence that have nothing at all to do with God, as we have already mentioned. So if I had been the student, I would like to think that I would have asked the professor:

Who is God and why we should worship such a being?

Or better yet, I would like to think that the professor would have asked that question himself.

[Guest enlightenme]

I guess I am just an illogical person... cause it all made sense to me....

but I guess I just see things differently then most people do.

[Guest curvette]

This argument is getting rather silly, no?

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette@Nov 5 2004, 03:54 PM

This argument is getting rather silly, no?

Which argument?

And how can any argument really be silly? As long as someone learns something, which I assume to be the point of an argument, I think it's worth the time and effort it takes.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 5 2004, 04:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 5 2004, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Nov 5 2004, 03:54 PM

This argument is getting rather silly, no?

Which argument?

And how can any argument really be silly? As long as someone learns something, which I assume to be the point of an argument, I think it's worth the time and effort it takes.

and what have you learned, Einstein?

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 5 2004, 04:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 5 2004, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 5 2004, 04:20 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Nov 5 2004, 03:54 PM

This argument is getting rather silly, no?

Which argument?

And how can any argument really be silly? As long as someone learns something, which I assume to be the point of an argument, I think it's worth the time and effort it takes.

and what have you learned, Einstein?

Heh, me? Nothing much, except maybe a little bit more about the people I'm talking with. I already knew that God didn't create evil and where evil comes from, so I was busy trying to help other people who didn't know that. :)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 5 2004, 04:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 5 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Nov 5 2004, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 5 2004, 04:20 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Nov 5 2004, 03:54 PM

This argument is getting rather silly, no?

Which argument?

And how can any argument really be silly? As long as someone learns something, which I assume to be the point of an argument, I think it's worth the time and effort it takes.

and what have you learned, Einstein?

Heh, me? Nothing much, except maybe a little bit more about the people I'm talking with. I already knew that God didn't create evil and where evil comes from, so I was busy trying to help other people who didn't know that. :)

Ah--just as I thought. You are not seeking understanding, but imparting it others less fortunate. I'm going to quote you, and tag Einstein's name on at the end. Is that okay with you?

[Ray]

You can quote anything I say as long as you quote exactly what I say and the context in which I am saying it. Fair deal?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 5 2004, 10:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 5 2004, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Nov 4 2004, 07:21 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 4 2004, 01:22 PM

I don’t think the existence of God was ever in question, at least not in Amillia’s post.  The question was whether or not evil exists and whether or not God created it.

No, read the post. Einstein (albeit a falsified Einstein) sought to disprove the professor's argument that God does not exist. Recall that the the professor's argument was one of theodicy - how can a just, all-powerful, all-good god (the Christian God) be the author of evil?

But actually in a larger sense, that was not the point the maudlin little tale; the screamingly obvious point illustrated in Einstein's proof of the God's existence (illogical though it was) was that though God we can all just love one another and isn't that so very sweet.

I think you’re reading too much into things and saying things that the person we’re talking about did not say. I do see how you could suppose the professor could have had that question in mind, but let’s stick with the question the professor asked instead of trying to read his mind. Okay?

The question he asked was: Did God create everything that exists?

Now, he might have really wanted to understand the nature of the God his class professed to believe in, assuming they believed in any God at all, but we should first answer his question before trying to tell him everything else we know about God.

And FYI, the correct answer to that question is No. God did not create everything that exists, and there are many things in existence that are just as eternal as God is. And there are other things in existence that have nothing at all to do with God, as we have already mentioned. So if I had been the student, I would like to think that I would have asked the professor:

Who is God and why we should worship such a being?

Or better yet, I would like to think that the professor would have asked that question himself.

Ray - I barely have the inclination to explain this - not worth the effort - but here goes, briefly.

The professor tried to form a logical argument by building upon a premise and making several proposistion to form a conclusion:

Unspoken premise #1: The Christian God is all-good and all-powerful.

Unspoken premise #2: An all-powerful God who is also all-good or just cannot be the author of evil or unnecessary suffering.

Proposition #1: God created everything.

Proposition #2: God created evil.

Proposition #3: God, the author of evil, is also evil.

Conclusion: The Christian idea of an all-good/all-powerful god is false.

How do I know that is the conclusion? Because the lying author of the story tells us that is conclusion; and I quote:

"The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to

the students that he had proven once more that the Christian

faith was a myth."

Contrary to what you claim, Ray, I am not reading anything into the story. That is what the author specifically said. If you are unfamiliar with the argument, do a search for "theodicy." The professor of the story was not wondering about the nature of God. He was playing the role of a typical atheist/liberal professor trying to screw with the minds of relatively unsophisticated college kids only in this manipulative little story, the world's great intellect, THE Albert Einstein just happens to be one of the malleable college students and turns the tables on the professor. The story is garbage, however, because Einstein committs the logical fallacies of false analogy and irrelevant conclusion just because cold is the absence of heat does not mean that evil is the absence of good.

The rest of your post only makes sense if you are Mormon; Mormons don't believe that God created evil but the author of the story wasn't Mormon or at least make no Mormon nuanced assertion.

[Snow]

Originally posted by enlightenme@Nov 5 2004, 12:56 PM

I guess I am just an illogical person... cause it all made sense to me....

but I guess I just see things differently then most people do.

It (the conclusion) does make sense, that's not the problem. The problem is that the author is a liar and uses a fallacious argument to make his point.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Amillia@Nov 2 2004, 08:27 AM

Subject: DOES EVIL EXIST???

Does evil exist? The university professor challenged his students with this question.

Did God create everything that exists?

A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created

evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our

works define who we are then God is evil".

The student became quiet before such an answer.

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to

the students that he had proven once more that the Christian

faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question

professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have

you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's

question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist.

According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality

the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when

it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or

ransmit energy.

Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence

of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature.

Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel

if we have no heat."

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does".

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness

does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light.

Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism

to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each

color.

You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a

world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain

space is?

You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this

correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when

there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have

already said.

We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's

inhumanity to man.

It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.

"These manifestations are nothing else but

evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at

least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.

It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe

the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or

love that exist just as does light and heat.

Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present

in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness

that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young mans name --- Albert Einstein

Um, urban legend. Go here: http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Amillia@Nov 2 2004, 12:52 PM

I received this as an email from a friend. It doesn't really matter whether it was Einstein who did it or not. Someone did and it is a great argument.

Then perpetuate it as an ANONYMOUS student and do not fraudulently use the name of a famous and respected person to give it credibility. Just relate the story sans the Einstien reference and it would be fine.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 2 2004, 06:15 PM

I can't stand this kind of imbecilic blather, especially when it is based on a lie (that Einstein was behind it) and specifically when it is wrong.

Why on earth would anyone compare evil to temperature or electomagnetic radiation (light). They are not analogous. It is a juvenile comparison. Evil is not the absence of something. Absent goodness, the natural state of things is not murder and rape and torture and hate. Those are things that people, evil people, elect to do, or their own volition.

I completely agree with you on this, Snow.