Amillia Posted January 25, 2005 Report Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by mark44+Jan 25 2005, 04:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mark44 @ Jan 25 2005, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 24 2005, 11:46 PM Pushka is right you really need to seek help. How about your family, that is the first place I would start. Maybe the help could come from your bishop. I can see that you really want to get help by how open you are in your posts.Continue to read and pray, but please also see a good doctor. I have no choice. i don't have the money too use professionals whether they are doctors or pyschiatrists. I always taught to do all that you can do and after that god will help. Well "all that you can do" includes telling the truth. You would be amazed at how much better you will feel. :)
pushka Posted January 26, 2005 Report Posted January 26, 2005 I'm sorry that I don't know much about how your health services work for those people who cannot afford to pay for insurance or whatever...but am I correct in thinking that there are some 'state' hospitals which are there to help anybody, rich or poor, as long as they have a valid I.D. card? Surely the doctors there would be able to help you as an urgent case, as you appear to be bordering on committing suicide? Please anybody who knows more about this tell Mark44 how to get the help he needs without coming across financial barriers. If anyone is a friend of Mark44's (apart from on the net) and knows his family, please consider approaching them with him, in order to help him discuss his thoughts with them.
Cal Posted January 26, 2005 Report Posted January 26, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 23 2005, 11:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 23 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 23 2005, 07:52 PM I think you need some serious, urgent help from a doctor and psychiatrist before you do some harm to yourself...Please, you must STOP believing that it is Satan making you gay...get help now! I disagree. Satan does make people gay. Everything that is good comes from Christ. Everything that is evil comes from Satan. That is scriptural.Have you considered fasting and praying and have the demons cast out? Satan makes people gay? Now I have heard everything! I have to write that again--just to make sure it sinks in........Satan makes people gay!!!! I didn't know he had that kind of power---now he can engage in the creation process? Quite a guy, that Satan I wonder if he has a degree in genetic engineering, since biology and genetics studies has shown quite clearly that homosexuality has a genetic component.
Cal Posted January 26, 2005 Report Posted January 26, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 24 2005, 03:14 PM there's no genetics, only satan and his host always for some reason trying to make me believe i'm gay. Absolutely correct. So few know this. It is very significant that someone who has this spiritual disease~ recognises it. Kuddos sir! Amellia--are you trying to ruin this guy? He needs professional help, not fairy tales about ghosts and goblins. The idea that Satan causes all these diseases and human ailments is stuff from the dark ages. Maybe we should take him to Salem and dunk him in the community pond a few times, that should solve all his problems.
pushka Posted January 26, 2005 Report Posted January 26, 2005 Thank you for your posts Cal...I feel so helpless for this guy...I hope that there is some sort of help available here...not only through the messages that we post, which can actually reach out to Mark on a more personal level and steer him towards to real sort of help that he needs... I don't know how much personal info. members supply to admin. but it would be useful if someone from admin could take Mark44's case to a more personal level and see if anything can be done for him. I would recommend PM's or Emails but not if they are going to make him feel worse, as in the posts from amilia which are just reinforcing his delusions re satan... Admin..can you help Mark????
Amillia Posted January 26, 2005 Report Posted January 26, 2005 Originally posted by Cal+Jan 25 2005, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 25 2005, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 24 2005, 03:14 PM there's no genetics, only satan and his host always for some reason trying to make me believe i'm gay. Absolutely correct. So few know this. It is very significant that someone who has this spiritual disease~ recognises it. Kuddos sir! Amellia--are you trying to ruin this guy? He needs professional help, not fairy tales about ghosts and goblins. The idea that Satan causes all these diseases and human ailments is stuff from the dark ages. Maybe we should take him to Salem and dunk him in the community pond a few times, that should solve all his problems. You are the one trying to ruin the guy. I know a lot of people who have been totally ruined by psychiatrists. But non who have been ruined by having their demons cast out.
pushka Posted January 27, 2005 Report Posted January 27, 2005 Amilia I am saddened by your insistence on only 1 explanation as to why Mark is gay and why he is so depressed over the issue...have you studied science at school/college at all? Don't you believe in genetics in any regard, even in regard to illnesses in babies? This is so narrow minded and dangerous thinking...please do not try to prevent Mark from seeking some sort of medical as well as spiritual help for his problems.
Amillia Posted January 27, 2005 Report Posted January 27, 2005 Originally posted by pushka@Jan 27 2005, 09:30 AM Amilia I am saddened by your insistence on only 1 explanation as to why Mark is gay and why he is so depressed over the issue...have you studied science at school/college at all? Don't you believe in genetics in any regard, even in regard to illnesses in babies? This is so narrow minded and dangerous thinking...please do not try to prevent Mark from seeking some sort of medical as well as spiritual help for his problems. I believe that even babies can be made sick by evil spirits within a home. It is scientific studies which as proven that what helps us spiritually helps us physically. Happiness helps us heal. Praying has been studied and found to be physically beneficial.I believe in science and I believe God is the master of it.
Cal Posted January 27, 2005 Report Posted January 27, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 27 2005, 08:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 27 2005, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 27 2005, 09:30 AM Amilia I am saddened by your insistence on only 1 explanation as to why Mark is gay and why he is so depressed over the issue...have you studied science at school/college at all? Don't you believe in genetics in any regard, even in regard to illnesses in babies? This is so narrow minded and dangerous thinking...please do not try to prevent Mark from seeking some sort of medical as well as spiritual help for his problems. I believe that even babies can be made sick by evil spirits within a home. It is scientific studies which as proven that what helps us spiritually helps us physically. Happiness helps us heal. Praying has been studied and found to be physically beneficial.I believe in science and I believe God is the master of it. Well in that case, Amellia, the next time someone has a heart attack, let's not bother to take him to the emergency room--lets just have a seance.
Amillia Posted January 28, 2005 Report Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Cal+Jan 27 2005, 05:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 27 2005, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 27 2005, 08:36 AM <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 27 2005, 09:30 AM Amilia I am saddened by your insistence on only 1 explanation as to why Mark is gay and why he is so depressed over the issue...have you studied science at school/college at all? Don't you believe in genetics in any regard, even in regard to illnesses in babies? This is so narrow minded and dangerous thinking...please do not try to prevent Mark from seeking some sort of medical as well as spiritual help for his problems. I believe that even babies can be made sick by evil spirits within a home. It is scientific studies which as proven that what helps us spiritually helps us physically. Happiness helps us heal. Praying has been studied and found to be physically beneficial.I believe in science and I believe God is the master of it. Well in that case, Amellia, the next time someone has a heart attack, let's not bother to take him to the emergency room--lets just have a seance. seance is of demons. the science of medicine came from God. He gave us knowledge of how to help ourselves. But there ae times and situations which require God's intervention.Don't be so predictably over the top on this. by saying~ don't need doctors call upon the demons.
Jenda Posted January 28, 2005 Report Posted January 28, 2005 Unless something new has happened in the world of science, the last I read was that in the one study that they were able to find a genetic marker for a gay fruit fly, they could not reproduce the result, and there have not been any other genetic finds related to this since then. Of course, I could have missed some, and if I have, could someone point them out to me? Thanks.
pushka Posted January 28, 2005 Report Posted January 28, 2005 Jenda...I notice that this is your only contribution to this thread...what would you suggest as being a good way to help Mark44 with his problems over being gay? Whether you believe that he is gay because of biology or because of satan or 'problems bonding with his parents'? Do you think he should rely on prayer or exorcism only or should seek some sort of medical help too?
Cal Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 28 2005, 08:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 28 2005, 08:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 05:25 PM Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 27 2005, 08:36 AM <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 27 2005, 09:30 AM Amilia I am saddened by your insistence on only 1 explanation as to why Mark is gay and why he is so depressed over the issue...have you studied science at school/college at all? Don't you believe in genetics in any regard, even in regard to illnesses in babies? This is so narrow minded and dangerous thinking...please do not try to prevent Mark from seeking some sort of medical as well as spiritual help for his problems. I believe that even babies can be made sick by evil spirits within a home. It is scientific studies which as proven that what helps us spiritually helps us physically. Happiness helps us heal. Praying has been studied and found to be physically beneficial.I believe in science and I believe God is the master of it. Well in that case, Amellia, the next time someone has a heart attack, let's not bother to take him to the emergency room--lets just have a seance. seance is of demons. the science of medicine came from God. He gave us knowledge of how to help ourselves. But there ae times and situations which require God's intervention.Don't be so predictably over the top on this. by saying~ don't need doctors call upon the demons. Now you have really got me confused. So you DO think that it is ok to rely on modern science to solve medical problems. We can always call on God when science goes wrong. Is that it? Why not just go to the source? Why would God give us all this scientific knowledge, if he could just answer our prayers?
Cal Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 28 2005, 03:19 PM Unless something new has happened in the world of science, the last I read was that in the one study that they were able to find a genetic marker for a gay fruit fly, they could not reproduce the result, and there have not been any other genetic finds related to this since then.Of course, I could have missed some, and if I have, could someone point them out to me?Thanks. Read both the Minnesota and Australian identical twin studies. I will summarize. They both found a genetic component to homosexuality. The rate of homosexuality among regular brothers or sisters, as well as any other group of people is anywhere from 2 to 5 %.Both the Minnesota and Australian studies took IDENTICAL twins (same genetics) who had been separated at birth and studied their rates of homosexuality. Now, if environment were the only factor at play, you would expect the rate to be the same as non-identical twins (2-5%). But, low and behold, the rate of gayness among identical twins, separated at birth, living in totally different environments is 50%. Did you get that? 50%. What do identical twins have in common, that the other groups don't. Only one thing, GENETICS.Bottomline: There is a genetic component to gayness. No question. Now is there an environmental one too. Very well could be. Most human behavior is influenced by environment. But to say that gayness cannot be influence by genetics is totally false.On top of that, it has been shown that the brain of gay people has structures in it that are characteristic of the opposite sex--these are anatomical differences, which are controlled by genes.Finally, social studies of interviews with many gay people indicate that many if not most, gays feel they were born that way, that they felt no real choice in the matter. Put all of this together, and the rational person can come to only one conclusion--gayness is not really completely an environmental and personal choice over which one has complete control. Most of these people are born that way.One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay?
Amillia Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 Originally posted by Cal+Jan 29 2005, 12:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 29 2005, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 28 2005, 08:53 AM Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 05:25 PM Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 27 2005, 08:36 AM <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 27 2005, 09:30 AM Amilia I am saddened by your insistence on only 1 explanation as to why Mark is gay and why he is so depressed over the issue...have you studied science at school/college at all? Don't you believe in genetics in any regard, even in regard to illnesses in babies? This is so narrow minded and dangerous thinking...please do not try to prevent Mark from seeking some sort of medical as well as spiritual help for his problems. I believe that even babies can be made sick by evil spirits within a home. It is scientific studies which as proven that what helps us spiritually helps us physically. Happiness helps us heal. Praying has been studied and found to be physically beneficial.I believe in science and I believe God is the master of it. Well in that case, Amellia, the next time someone has a heart attack, let's not bother to take him to the emergency room--lets just have a seance. seance is of demons. the science of medicine came from God. He gave us knowledge of how to help ourselves. But there ae times and situations which require God's intervention.Don't be so predictably over the top on this. by saying~ don't need doctors call upon the demons. Now you have really got me confused. So you DO think that it is ok to rely on modern science to solve medical problems. We can always call on God when science goes wrong. Is that it? Why not just go to the source? Why would God give us all this scientific knowledge, if he could just answer our prayers? We are here to learn, experience, mature in knowledge and get to know God. I like this scripture:D&C 88: 47 47 Behold, all these are akingdoms•, and any man who hath bseen• any or the least of these hath cseen• God dmoving• in his majesty and power.As we learn science we learn about God.
Amillia Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 Originally posted by Cal@Jan 29 2005, 12:57 PM Finally, social studies of interviews with many gay people indicate that a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay? Well if one wants to be like a chimp what can we do about it?
Amillia Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay? The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change?
Cal Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 29 2005, 01:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 29 2005, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 29 2005, 12:44 PM Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 28 2005, 08:53 AM Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 05:25 PM Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 27 2005, 08:36 AM <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 27 2005, 09:30 AM Amilia I am saddened by your insistence on only 1 explanation as to why Mark is gay and why he is so depressed over the issue...have you studied science at school/college at all? Don't you believe in genetics in any regard, even in regard to illnesses in babies? This is so narrow minded and dangerous thinking...please do not try to prevent Mark from seeking some sort of medical as well as spiritual help for his problems. I believe that even babies can be made sick by evil spirits within a home. It is scientific studies which as proven that what helps us spiritually helps us physically. Happiness helps us heal. Praying has been studied and found to be physically beneficial.I believe in science and I believe God is the master of it. Well in that case, Amellia, the next time someone has a heart attack, let's not bother to take him to the emergency room--lets just have a seance. seance is of demons. the science of medicine came from God. He gave us knowledge of how to help ourselves. But there ae times and situations which require God's intervention.Don't be so predictably over the top on this. by saying~ don't need doctors call upon the demons. Now you have really got me confused. So you DO think that it is ok to rely on modern science to solve medical problems. We can always call on God when science goes wrong. Is that it? Why not just go to the source? Why would God give us all this scientific knowledge, if he could just answer our prayers? We are here to learn, experience, mature in knowledge and get to know God. I like this scripture:D&C 88: 47 47 Behold, all these are akingdoms•, and any man who hath bseen• any or the least of these hath cseen• God dmoving• in his majesty and power.As we learn science we learn about God. Problem is, everyone seems to have their own version of God. Yours goes around healing everyone, mine lets us figure it out on our own. Oh well, JS said there is a multitude of Gods, he must have been right.
Cal Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 29 2005, 01:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 29 2005, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 29 2005, 12:57 PM Finally, social studies of interviews with many gay people indicate that a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay? Well if one wants to be like a chimp what can we do about it? Exactly, now just apply your statement to humans--after all we share over 99% of our genes with those cute little guys.
Cal Posted January 29, 2005 Report Posted January 29, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:34 PM One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay? The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change? So, you think that just preaching to a gay person is going to stop them from being gay? Maybe we could preach to the Chimps too--they are actually pretty smart.
Amillia Posted January 30, 2005 Report Posted January 30, 2005 Originally posted by Cal+Jan 29 2005, 05:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 29 2005, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:33 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 29 2005, 12:57 PM Finally, social studies of interviews with many gay people indicate that a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay? Well if one wants to be like a chimp what can we do about it? Exactly, now just apply your statement to humans--after all we share over 99% of our genes with those cute little guys. We were sent down here with totally different assignments, and intelligent capacities. Genes are just physical traites. What you have to deal with is the Spiritual missions and purposes being totally different.
Amillia Posted January 30, 2005 Report Posted January 30, 2005 Originally posted by Cal+Jan 29 2005, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 29 2005, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:34 PM One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay? The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change? So, you think that just preaching to a gay person is going to stop them from being gay? Maybe we could preach to the Chimps too--they are actually pretty smart. Just preaching? It is about spiritual laws. If they have been given these teachings and choose to ignore them (which they are free to do) then they have chosen to ignore teachings which require a higher level of spiritual adherence. There are always laws and law breakers. But Chimps aren't given the same laws as man. Get over it.
Cal Posted January 30, 2005 Report Posted January 30, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 30 2005, 12:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 30 2005, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 29 2005, 05:23 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:34 PM One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay? The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change? So, you think that just preaching to a gay person is going to stop them from being gay? Maybe we could preach to the Chimps too--they are actually pretty smart. Just preaching? It is about spiritual laws. If they have been given these teachings and choose to ignore them (which they are free to do) then they have chosen to ignore teachings which require a higher level of spiritual adherence. There are always laws and law breakers. But Chimps aren't given the same laws as man. Get over it. Really? Who made the law that says that being born gay is a sin?
mark44 Posted January 30, 2005 Author Report Posted January 30, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 25 2005, 04:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 25 2005, 04:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -mark44@Jan 25 2005, 04:13 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 24 2005, 11:46 PM Pushka is right you really need to seek help. How about your family, that is the first place I would start. Maybe the help could come from your bishop. I can see that you really want to get help by how open you are in your posts.Continue to read and pray, but please also see a good doctor. I have no choice. i don't have the money too use professionals whether they are doctors or pyschiatrists. I always taught to do all that you can do and after that god will help. Well "all that you can do" includes telling the truth. You would be amazed at how much better you will feel. :) why should i tell anybody that i am possessed by a gay demon, or demons if more than one? yeh, the bishop if want an excorcism, but not people in my ward and evryone has no right to know.
mark44 Posted January 30, 2005 Author Report Posted January 30, 2005 also, in the new testament we find many ailments associated with possession by evil spirits. mary magdelene was possessed by seven of them. they also caused paralysis, dumbness and so on. if we as lds are saying that's just how the new testement writers interpreted tghings given their lack of scientific enlightenment we have today, than that kind of casts doubt on the entire gospel of christ. he spoke to the demons, they knew him, and he forbade them to discuss prior things iwth him. i believe there are evil spirits in or near me. i don't think possession means i have to float on the ceiling like in movies, though i'm sure this happens in extreme cases and i saw similar things on my mission in south america. the guy who wrote reaod less traveled also thinks some people are "perfectly possessed" in other words, there's no resistance to the demonic influences and so they appear quite normal and are therefore quite evil, like hitler. i am not gonna kill myself, but i'm angry. i often kneel in prayer and half way through scream profanity up at the ceiling. it's like something inside of me that hates christ so much whereas i really love him.
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