Prayer....

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by huma17@Feb 8 2005, 04:51 PM

[ But, some things cannot wait - they are a 'need an answer now' type, and if the answer doesn't come, we are left to make tough choices on our own.

I've never waited for God to make my decisions for me. He gives us talents, brains, interests, families and friends. If God is being silent, maybe He's expecting you to use the tools He's already given you to make some of your major decisions. I'd go with your insticts. I think, if you stay in tune, you'll get a really bad feeling if you start to proceed with something and it's most definitely wrong.

[huma17]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 8 2005, 06:30 PM

I've never waited for God to make my decisions for me. He gives us talents, brains, interests, families and friends. If God is being silent, maybe He's expecting you to use the tools He's already given you to make some of your major decisions. I'd go with your insticts. I think, if you stay in tune, you'll get a really bad feeling if you start to proceed with something and it's most definitely wrong.

I'm not waiting/expecting him to make decisions for me, merely to do what he said he would do. He gave us the tools to come to a decision by ourselves, then to ask him if it is right. Just as the brother of Jared ask the Lord to light the rocks - he came to that himself. If it is right, then the Lord will cause that our bossom shall burn within us, and if it be wrong, then he would cause us to be confused, unclear, or bad about it. I am only doing what he has said to do, but am not getting an answer, so I am left to proceed with the decision that I came to, and brought before him.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by huma17+Feb 8 2005, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (huma17 @ Feb 8 2005, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 8 2005, 03:33 PM

What exactly are you seeking counsel about and maybe we can lead you to the scripture or principle that will answer your need? Maybe your answer from the Lord is US?

I don't think that the answers I'm looking for can come from you guys, nor from the scriptures. Such questions as the best time/person to marry for oneself, which would be the best school/career to attend to, if I'm on the right direction for temperal matters (not necessarily spiritual, because those could be answered by many), etc.

The interesting thing about praying for whom you are to marry, is that there is more than one. And if you miss out on one, there is always another or someone who will fill your life as well as the other.

My mother's family had an interesting experience with this. My two aunts were dating brothers. The older one of them married before the younger because she didn't want her sister to be in the same family. She was quite selfish and wanted to be the only one.

The strange thing was, that the younger aunts daughter ended up marrying the son of the man her mother almost married. So her grand children came through that line even if her own didn't.

In the eternities, family lines are very important.

As for careers, your talents, interests, personality all are gifts of the Lord to help you know what field you are to enter, and then there is trial and error which is good for anyone who needs experience in life, in arriving to the best place for you and your family. There will be many choices to make as you grow older, as careers are never stagnant nor without detours.

No one is ever given a map with exact placement and choices already made. Sometimes we are given different equally good ways to choose from.

Acknowleging the premis that everyone has their agency, there are variables that God will not control, but will help you live through and work through.

In the end, it is the experience you gained which will be of the most value. And it won't be so much what you had opportunities to do or experience, but how you handled them through kindness, wisdom, and understanding.

Joseph Smith was given the responsibility to establish the church on the earth and be the leader of the people, yet when he was imprisoned, these were the very things he couldn't do.

He was frustrated and didn't understand why the Lord would allow him to be taken from among the people, when he had such a lot of work yet to do. The Lord told JS that it would give him experience. In the end, another was chosen to lead the people and the church continued.

Your life will be like that. There will be things that don't seem consistent with what you feel you are being expected to do, yet when you turn around at 40 you will see there was a definite pattern of progression towards your fulfillment of your mission on earth. (Of course this is all premised upon your faithfulness no matter what the obsticles.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by huma17+Feb 8 2005, 06:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (huma17 @ Feb 8 2005, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Feb 8 2005, 06:30 PM

I've never waited for God to make my decisions for me.  He gives us talents, brains, interests, families and friends.  If God is being silent, maybe He's expecting you to use the tools He's already given you to make some of your major decisions.  I'd go with your insticts.  I think, if you stay in tune, you'll get a really bad feeling if you start to proceed with something and it's most definitely wrong.

I'm not waiting/expecting him to make decisions for me, merely to do what he said he would do. He gave us the tools to come to a decision by ourselves, then to ask him if it is right. Just as the brother of Jared ask the Lord to light the rocks - he came to that himself. If it is right, then the Lord will cause that our bossom shall burn within us, and if it be wrong, then he would cause us to be confused, unclear, or bad about it. I am only doing what he has said to do, but am not getting an answer, so I am left to proceed with the decision that I came to, and brought before him.

The fact you aren't being given confusion or are being given confusion means it is right or wrong. If there is no answer to something you are asking about, then it means that is okay but not necessarily the only options.

[Cal]

Originally posted by huma17@Feb 7 2005, 08:00 PM

I'm sure that some of you will feel that I deserve what ever comes my way, because I'm not the most tactful person that has ever graced this board...

Well, I apologize for that.

All I have to say, is that I no longer believe in the power of prayer!!

The Lord has abandoned me for far too long, and I don't think that I respect that.

I have been a true admonisher of the Gospel my whole life, but I don't find it in my personal life anymore.

Take that as you will, but I do not want to follow a Savior that will abandon me so freely.

Yes, he went through so much - but remember, that was HIS choice!! It was required that someone be the Savior of this (these) worlds, but don't forget that there had to be SOMEONE willing to do such!! If there wasn't, then we would still be waiting for someone to step forward.

Don't think that our Heavenly Father was so foolish to think that if the Lord did not step forward, that he would have had to rely on Lucifer to perform the act of Savior. He knew full well that Lucifer would not have been sufficient to fulfill the Plan of Salvation in the matter in which it needed to be.

So, if the Lord had not stepped forward, then our Father would have had to have done something else.

Why the Lord feels that he can abandon us with such regard is now beyond me!!

Your argument assumes the truth which it questions. The existance of God.

Put another way, if there is a God that can chose to abandon you, they who are you to complain about the abandonment? He's God, he is justified in what ever He does.

If you think God has abandoned you, join the crowd---especially in South East Asia!

[huma17]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 8 2005, 11:39 PM

The interesting thing about praying for whom you are to marry, is that there is more than one.   And if you miss out on one, there is always another or someone who will fill your life as well as the other.

My mother's family had an interesting experience with this. My two aunts were dating brothers. The older one of them married before the younger because she didn't want her sister to be in the same family. She was quite selfish and wanted to be the only one.

The strange thing was, that the younger aunts daughter ended up marrying the son of the man her mother almost married. So her grand children came through that line even if her own didn't.

In the eternities, family lines are very important.

As for careers, your talents, interests, personality all are gifts of the Lord to help you know what field you are to enter, and then there is trial and error which is good for anyone who needs experience in life, in arriving to the best place for you and your family. There will be many choices to make as you grow older, as careers are never stagnant nor without detours.

No one is ever given a map with exact placement and choices already made. Sometimes we are given different equally good ways to choose from.

Acknowleging the premis that everyone has their agency, there are variables that God will not control, but will help you live through and work through.

In the end, it is the experience you gained which will be of the most value. And it won't be so much what you had opportunities to do or experience, but how you handled them through kindness, wisdom, and understanding.

Joseph Smith was given the responsibility to establish the church on the earth and be the leader of the people, yet when he was imprisoned, these were the very things he couldn't do.

He was frustrated and didn't understand why the Lord would allow him to be taken from among the people, when he had such a lot of work yet to do. The Lord told JS that it would give him experience. In the end, another was chosen to lead the people and the church continued.

Your life will be like that. There will be things that don't seem consistent with what you feel you are being expected to do, yet when you turn around at 40 you will see there was a definite pattern of progression towards your fulfillment of your mission on earth. (Of course this is all premised upon your faithfulness no matter what the obsticles.

Amillia-

Thanks for the advice - it makes alot of sense.

The one thing that I'm starting to figure out, though, is that we really have no idea what life will be like after this. We assume, based upon the knowledge that we have, or are given, but I'm starting to see that they will only apply to this life.

For instance, on whom to marry. We are commanded to find someone to marry - and yes, I have heard, and now feel, that there could be many - then be sealed to them for all time and eternity. Well, what actually does that mean? If we can be just as happy with someone else, or even happier maybe, then why the whole 'time and eternity' thing? I mean, think about it. Out of all the spirits that have graced this earth in the past, all that are here now, and all that are still to come, you mean to tell me that out of the few hundred - maybe - people we have incountered as a possible mate (and I mean actually had the chance to have a relationship with), we found the one we can be the most happy and compatible with? That's not even mentioning all the other worlds that the Lord has created and populated, or any other dominions that might be out there...we will live forever, and to think of all the spirits that will be created, we found the BEST match?? I don't think so. And, again, why the whole time and eternity thing? Is it simply for obedience? When a couple has children and aren't sealed to them, then later divorce, when one remarries and gets sealed to the new spouse along with the children from the first marriage, what does it mean? Does it mean that the other parent isn't really their parent anymore, because they aren't sealed to them? Does that mean that in the next life, that they won't be able to see, or have a relationship, with those children whenever they want - because they aren't sealed??

I don't think we really know what to be sealed really means. I also don't think that what we think/know now, will have much import in the next life. Again, I refer to marriage. JS married women who were married to other men, because the Lord told him - as well as the women - that it was the way it was to be. Does that mean that our current, or future, spouse might not even be the one we will be with after this life? Is this all just a test? What if I had a relationship with someone in the pre-existence, and we knew that we wanted to be together forever, but the Lord knew that we could not grow to our potential in this life, or be tested and overcome in the ways that we needed to be, if we were together in this life. So, we agreed that we would come down here and not be with each other - that we would go through our mortal existence separate - with other people to have relationships with that would give us the greatest opportunities to grow. Now, while on earth, we each got married for 'eternity' with someone else, and we were faithful throughout our existence. Well, what happens after this? When we finish, and go back, won't we still want to be together, because we knew that this was what was going to happen, and now that the veil is lifted, we know what we knew then. What then happens to the marriages that we had in mortal life, which were for eternity?

My dad has since remarried - my mother died a few years past. Some of my siblings have had issue with this - I have not, because I feel things are OK. Anyway, he felt, as did others, that my mother was OK with this. Well, what exactly was she OK with? Was it because she knew that he would be with both, and everything would be OK? Or was it because she knew that this second marriage was only going to be for the rest of this life, and because she is not jealous - since she now sees that sex isn't what it is down here (it's Satan's tool here), so she's OK with it? But, my dad and his new wife got sealed in the temple (just as my parents did), so what does THAT do to things? Plus, my dad's second wife is sealed to her children with her first husband (as me and my siblings are to my parents), so what does THAT mean? Or - which I now believe - my mom now knows what is really going on, and she sees that what is going on in this life (besides being obedient and faithful to the Gospel) really doesn't mean too much, so she's OK with it? Who knows?

You also mentioned family lines. I have something to say about that as well - I hope this isn't getting too long (I apologize). When we are born, we have the split characteristics of our parents - it makes us look the way we do, and have many of the personalities that we start life off with. Well, if it doesn't really matter who you should marry, then what if someone makes a selfish choice and marries someone they shouldn't - such as your aunt. That would mean the the children will look different than they would have. Does that mean that what we look like now, isn't what we really look like?? Are we going to look different then we do now, in the next life, because we had to come down here to parents who really weren't supposed to be together? If we are going to look the same as we do now, so that others will recognize us, then what about how we looked before? What about those we had relationships before? Shouldn't they be able to recognize us? What if I like the way I looked better before, than to how I look now?

You see? There are so many things that we cannot explain - or at least I cannot - that make me wonder. If we are supposed to seek out the Lord for guidance in whom we marry, even though it really doesn't matter, then why should we even ask him in the first place? And why should we try so hard to make a bad marriage work, when it really isn't going to matter in the end anyway, and there is someone else out there that we could be happier with, or that would make things easier? What's the incentive to stuggle through, when all we are doing is just proving obedience? Can't I still obey the Lord and be obedient while getting divorce after divorce trying to find a better mate?

I know, alot of questions, but that's what is on my mind. I just don't know.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by huma17@Feb 9 2005, 11:20 AM

Amillia-

Thanks for the advice - it makes alot of sense.

The one thing that I'm starting to figure out, though, is that we really have no idea what life will be like after this. We assume, based upon the knowledge that we have, or are given, but I'm starting to see that they will only apply to this life.

For instance, on whom to marry. We are commanded to find someone to marry - and yes, I have heard, and now feel, that there could be many - then be sealed to them for all time and eternity. Well, what actually does that mean? If we can be just as happy with someone else, or even happier maybe, then why the whole 'time and eternity' thing? I mean, think about it. Out of all the spirits that have graced this earth in the past, all that are here now, and all that are still to come, you mean to tell me that out of the few hundred - maybe - people we have incountered as a possible mate (and I mean actually had the chance to have a relationship with), we found the one we can be the most happy and compatible with? That's not even mentioning all the other worlds that the Lord has created and populated, or any other dominions that might be out there...we will live forever, and to think of all the spirits that will be created, we found the BEST match?? I don't think so. And, again, why the whole time and eternity thing? Is it simply for obedience? When a couple has children and aren't sealed to them, then later divorce, when one remarries and gets sealed to the new spouse along with the children from the first marriage, what does it mean? Does it mean that the other parent isn't really their parent anymore, because they aren't sealed to them? Does that mean that in the next life, that they won't be able to see, or have a relationship, with those children whenever they want - because they aren't sealed??

I don't think we really know what to be sealed really means. I also don't think that what we think/know now, will have much import in the next life. Again, I refer to marriage. JS married women who were married to other men, because the Lord told him - as well as the women - that it was the way it was to be. Does that mean that our current, or future, spouse might not even be the one we will be with after this life? Is this all just a test? What if I had a relationship with someone in the pre-existence, and we knew that we wanted to be together forever, but the Lord knew that we could not grow to our potential in this life, or be tested and overcome in the ways that we needed to be, if we were together in this life. So, we agreed that we would come down here and not be with each other - that we would go through our mortal existence separate - with other people to have relationships with that would give us the greatest opportunities to grow. Now, while on earth, we each got married for 'eternity' with someone else, and we were faithful throughout our existence. Well, what happens after this? When we finish, and go back, won't we still want to be together, because we knew that this was what was going to happen, and now that the veil is lifted, we know what we knew then. What then happens to the marriages that we had in mortal life, which were for eternity?

My dad has since remarried - my mother died a few years past. Some of my siblings have had issue with this - I have not, because I feel things are OK. Anyway, he felt, as did others, that my mother was OK with this. Well, what exactly was she OK with? Was it because she knew that he would be with both, and everything would be OK? Or was it because she knew that this second marriage was only going to be for the rest of this life, and because she is not jealous - since she now sees that sex isn't what it is down here (it's Satan's tool here), so she's OK with it? But, my dad and his new wife got sealed in the temple (just as my parents did), so what does THAT do to things? Plus, my dad's second wife is sealed to her children with her first husband (as me and my siblings are to my parents), so what does THAT mean? Or - which I now believe - my mom now knows what is really going on, and she sees that what is going on in this life (besides being obedient and faithful to the Gospel) really doesn't mean too much, so she's OK with it? Who knows?

You also mentioned family lines. I have something to say about that as well - I hope this isn't getting too long (I apologize). When we are born, we have the split characteristics of our parents - it makes us look the way we do, and have many of the personalities that we start life off with. Well, if it doesn't really matter who you should marry, then what if someone makes a selfish choice and marries someone they shouldn't - such as your aunt. That would mean the the children will look different than they would have. Does that mean that what we look like now, isn't what we really look like?? Are we going to look different then we do now, in the next life, because we had to come down here to parents who really weren't supposed to be together? If we are going to look the same as we do now, so that others will recognize us, then what about how we looked before? What about those we had relationships before? Shouldn't they be able to recognize us? What if I like the way I looked better before, than to how I look now?

You see? There are so many things that we cannot explain - or at least I cannot - that make me wonder. If we are supposed to seek out the Lord for guidance in whom we marry, even though it really doesn't matter, then why should we even ask him in the first place? And why should we try so hard to make a bad marriage work, when it really isn't going to matter in the end anyway, and there is someone else out there that we could be happier with, or that would make things easier? What's the incentive to stuggle through, when all we are doing is just proving obedience? Can't I still obey the Lord and be obedient while getting divorce after divorce trying to find a better mate?

I know, alot of questions, but that's what is on my mind. I just don't know.

Very great stuff and awesome questions H.!

First, to be sealed for all time and eternity is this: Time is only for this earth so you are sealed for the time you are on this earth. All eternity is this: Christ's name is Eternal and his sealing is Eternal or His Sealing. It isn't talking about an amount of time after this life.

Eternity is only about 5-6 billions years. Then one starts a new eternity and life is one eternal round. (This can get a little hard on the brain cells lol) There is no best, just progress and experience. Even Christ learned obedience by the things which He suffered. It is the stuff that perfections is made of.

Knowing the purpose of this life allows you to start rolling with the experiences without being rolled over by them.

As for all the women you could hook up with, who do you think put those particular women in your arena? and you in theirs? You are so right, we really don't know what is going to happen on the otherside for the most part. But we do know somethings. Enough to know that having a companion who works well with you hear with all the opposition will definitely be an asset on the other side.

Learning from and with her all that you can about giving love and receiving love will bring you to a higher level of existence. That is what it is all about.

As far as the kids physical appearance, it is only for this life. When we speak of having the image of Christ in our countenances, we are speaking of a changed appearance.

I have to tell you something also about physical appearances here. When I went through the temple, my facial features changed. I thought it parculiar to only me, but later in my life, I met a woman who had the same experience. She showed me her wedding pictures of before they entered the temple and her coming out. It was unreal how much she changed in her facial features.

So I don't believe our physical appearance really is all that important.

About who belongs to who after this life, we know that we were all brothers and sisters to start with and we will be again in the end. We know the work on this level is the Lord's not ours and we have pleanty enough to take care of as it is, so it is a good thing that it is God's problem.

I wish I had more time. Maybe later I will re address this post.

Thank you for such insightful questions!

[shanstress70]

Wow, you have a lot of tough questions. I hope you can find the answers you are looking for because I can see these things are really troubling you. Sometimes the answers are not what you think they are, or what others say they are, or what you've grown up thinking they are.

Hope you find out the answers that bring you satisfaction. And even if you don't find the answers, I hope you can accept that some things just aren't meant to be known, and get on with your life.

P.S. I'm no longer LDS, so don't be poisoned by my crazy ideas!

[huma17]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 9 2005, 11:52 AM

First, to be sealed for all time and eternity is this: Time is only for this earth so you are sealed for the time you are on this earth. All eternity is this: Christ's name is Eternal and his sealing is Eternal or His Sealing. It isn't talking about an amount of time after this life.

Eternity is only about 5-6 billions years. Then one starts a new eternity and life is one eternal round. (This can get a little hard on the brain cells lol) There is no best, just progress and experience. Even Christ learned obedience by the things which He suffered. It is the stuff that perfections is made of.

Yes, I have understood eternity to mean a specific amount of time. When it talks about from eternity to eternity, it kind of gives you a hint. Or, when it talks about the eternitie(s) - plural.

Still, 5-6 billion years is a long time to be with someone that isn't the best for you.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by huma17+Feb 9 2005, 12:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (huma17 @ Feb 9 2005, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 9 2005, 11:52 AM

First, to be sealed for all time and eternity is this: Time is only for this earth so you are sealed for the time you are on this earth. All eternity is this: Christ's name is Eternal and his sealing is Eternal or His Sealing. It isn't talking about an amount of time after this life.

Eternity is only about 5-6 billions years. Then one starts a new eternity and life is one eternal round. (This can get a little hard on the brain cells lol) There is no best, just progress and experience. Even Christ learned obedience by the things which He suffered.  It is the stuff that perfections is made of.

Yes, I have understood eternity to mean a specific amount of time. When it talks about from eternity to eternity, it kind of gives you a hint. Or, when it talks about the eternitie(s) - plural.

Still, 5-6 billion years is a long time to be with someone that isn't the best for you.

You are the one who makes it the best or not. So it doesn't matter who you are with they will be the best because you have made up your mind to make it so.

[Guest curvette]

I'm thinkin that you have far too many questions worrying you to be thinking about the marriage thing for now. Take some time to resolve your questions about yourself and God, and then think about bringing someone else into the mix. (you may come to the point that you decide not to worry about those things anymore, but it's not a good time to enter into a lasting relationship right now.)

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by huma17@Feb 9 2005, 12:54 PM

Still, 5-6 billion years is a long time to be with someone that isn't the best for you.

You have a serious problem buddy.

you need to sort yourself out. I'm not just talking about religion but your lif in general. Life owes you nothing and you either take what you need or you complain about it on anonymous internet forums. It is not for your future, perect wife to help you overcome your issues, you need to do it for yourself before you get married.

Can you be the second person I sugegst reads this book today. "10 stupid things men do to mess up their lives", read it, it covers things like relationships, identifying wives, mistakes men make in choosing innaproriate partners, etc.

It won't answer all your questions here but it might help you see wallowing in victim status is not healthy for you or your potential future mate. It explains why.

[pushka]

Gosh...Huma17 has really opened up a can of worms about being married for Time and Eternity...where the concept originated from? Was it mentioned in the Bible, or was it revelation received by JS or another of the prophets of the LDS church...also the concept of eternity lasting 5-6 billion years...then recurring!! sounds a bit like a sci-fi fiction to me...again, was this scripture in the Bible or received revelation...remember, I don't believe in the LDS scriptures, so am asking from the point of view of somebody who may believe in the Bible at least.

If this was all received revelation, then I think that JS or whoever had it 'revealed' to them was making it all up to confuse the Saints, or to justify something or other that they wished to do within their own marriage, such as the polygamy issue, by stating that God ordered it...by the way, was polygamy allowed in the Bible? or was that JS revelation?

I agree that Huma17 is not ready for marriage for either time or eternity yet...he should concentrate on building his life and then finding a woman who appeals to him completely, on all levels...and leave the Time and Eternity issues till later.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 9 2005, 03:06 PM

I don't believe in the LDS scriptures, so am asking from the point of view of somebody who may believe in the Bible at least.

by the way, was polygamy allowed in the Bible? or was that JS revelation?

LOL

The bible is LDS scripture unless it is true that Shakespear really wrote it for King James. Then we have to wonder what is really true in the Bible. Of course King James refused to have many of the original books from the bible to be in his bible.

Polygamy was practiced by many in the bible. But as usual those who practiced it decided to add many more women to their harom than was ordained of God. MEN!

[pushka]

OK...Amillia, as you know, I'm sure, I was referring to the LDS scriptures that have been additional to the bible, eg. BofM, D&C, BofA, PoGP...and more? probably...yes, you're right we do have to question the validity of the content of the bible too...

As you say King James chose to have parts of the Bible omitted from his version, why do the LDS use this as THEIR chosen version? why not one of the others?

As to polygamy...okay, you say it was practised in the Bible, but many took more wives than God said they should? So you can supply me with Bible scriptures where God sanctions polygamy and states what number of wives each man is allowed?

Also, can you answer my other questions regarding the origins of the doctrine of Marriage for Time and All Eternity, and whilst we're at it, any reference to the planet Kolob being made in the Bible, and its being the closest planet to God?

Sorry to have gone off the subject here a little Huma17...also, I am very sorry that you had to lose your mother at an early age (I'm assuming you are quite young too...sorry if I'm wrong) and that your father remarrying and all that stuff about being sealed to both women, and both sets of children is so confusing and possibly upsetting to you...this is why I question the validity of the Doctrine...it causes so much heartache and confusion for so many!!! Why was it made???

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 9 2005, 06:27 PM

OK...Amillia, as you know, I'm sure, I was referring to the LDS scriptures that have been additional to the bible, eg. BofM, D&C, BofA, PoGP...and more? probably...yes, you're right we do have to question the validity of the content of the bible too...

As you say King James chose to have parts of the Bible omitted from his version, why do the LDS use this as THEIR chosen version? why not one of the others?

As to polygamy...okay, you say it was practised in the Bible, but many took more wives than God said they should? So you can supply me with Bible scriptures where God sanctions polygamy and states what number of wives each man is allowed?

Also, can you answer my other questions regarding the origins of the doctrine of Marriage for Time and All Eternity, and whilst we're at it, any reference to the planet Kolob being made in the Bible, and its being the closest planet to God?

Sorry to have gone off the subject here a little Huma17...also, I am very sorry that you had to lose your mother at an early age (I'm assuming you are quite young too...sorry if I'm wrong) and that your father remarrying and all that stuff about being sealed to both women, and both sets of children is so confusing and possibly upsetting to you...this is why I question the validity of the Doctrine...it causes so much heartache and confusion for so many!!! Why was it made???

OK...Amillia, as you know, I'm sure, I was referring to the LDS scriptures that have been additional to the bible, eg. BofM, D&C, BofA, PoGP...and more? probably...yes, you're right we do have to question the validity of the content of the bible too...

Absolutely. But we must look for the good must we not?

As you say King James chose to have parts of the Bible omitted from his version, why do the LDS use this as THEIR chosen version? why not one of the others?

I heard the answer to this once, but I'm not sure I remember the answer correctly. I will take a stab at it anyway. The King James version was claimed to be the most correct of all translations. The word changes of emporur to king was only one of many changes. This change was really only significant to the king or emporur.

Also, the books that were eliminated weren't considered doctrinal or significant enough to make the book larger and harder to reproduce. It is very good at keeping the words true to their original meanings. In the language from which it came, there were different words for love to indicate which kind of love it was referring to, but the english language didn't afford this. There were quite a few other words which had a similar problem, because languages don't always translate straight accross. For instance there is a phrase in French : il faut. In english the best we can do is : must or have to. But in French il faut is so much stronger with a insinuated threat if not complied with.

To be able to correctly translate scripture with it's intended message and all it's nuauces(sp) isn't as easy as it may seem.

As to polygamy...okay, you say it was practised in the Bible, but many took more wives than God said they should? So you can supply me with Bible scriptures where God sanctions polygamy and states what number of wives each man is allowed?

Here is just one example of a righteous man having many wives.

Judges 8

22 ¶ Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian.

23 And Gideon said unto them, I will not arule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall brule• over you.

24 ¶ And Gideon said unto them, I would desire a request of you, that ye would give me every man the earrings of his prey. (For they had golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites.)

25 And they answered, We will willingly give them. And they spread a garment, and did cast therein every man the earrings of his prey.

26 And the weight of the agolden• earrings that he requested was a thousand and seven hundred bshekels• of gold; beside cornaments•, and collars, and purple raiment that was on the kings of Midian, and beside the chains that were about their camels’ necks.

27 And Gideon made an aephod• thereof, and put it in his city, even in Ophrah: and all Israel went thither a whoring after it: which thing became a bsnare• unto Gideon, and to his house.

28 ¶ Thus was Midian subdued before the children of Israel, so that they lifted up their heads no more. And the country was in quietness forty years in the days of Gideon.

29 ¶ And Jerubbaal the son of Joash went and dwelt in his own house.

30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.

31 And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son, whose name he called Abimelech.

32 ¶ And Gideon the son of Joash died in a good old age, and was buried in the sepulchre of Joash his father, in Ophrah of the Abi-ezrites.

33 And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baal-berith their god.

34 And the children of Israel remembered not the LORD their God, who had delivered them out of the hands of all their enemies on every side:

35 Neither shewed they kindness to the house of Jerubbaal, namely, Gideon, according to all the goodness which he had shewed unto Israel.

Also, can you answer my other questions regarding the origins of the doctrine of Marriage for Time and All Eternity, and whilst we're at it, any reference to the planet Kolob being made in the Bible, and its being the closest planet to God?

The story is that the Nights Templar were the gardians of the Solomon's temple ceremony and that the Mason's are the decendant organization of these nights. The teachings of eternal marriage would have been among their things to guard as the world came apart into the dark ages. The Crusades were all about finding the holy grale and the temple nights and their sacred ceremonies and teachings. They were not successful.

But as you can see, Moses doesn't teach people to build arks and Noah doesn't teach people the ten commandments. Each dispensation has it's work and the work of JS was to restore all that had been lost over the last 6000.

Sorry to have gone off the subject here a little Huma17...also, I am very sorry that you had to lose your mother at an early age (I'm assuming you are quite young too...sorry if I'm wrong) and that your father remarrying and all that stuff about being sealed to both women, and both sets of children is so confusing and possibly upsetting to you...this is why I question the validity of the Doctrine...it causes so much heartache and confusion for so many!!! Why was it made???

It was given to become as the Gods. It may seem complicated here and now, but it is really simple when the Lord becomes involved because he know our hearts and will do what is best for us. The use of this doctrine for our day is that we need to purify our hearts to such an end that we will do even the hard things to understand, just to comply with him.

Consider Abraham being asked to sacrifice his only son through the chosen linage. It is no different. The Lord wants to prove our loyalty and obedience to him instead of trusting in the arm of flesh meaning, trusting in our own understandings.

[pushka]

Thank you for the Scriptural references Amillia...I do see in them that the men were taking more than 1 wife..many wives in fact..and that they were going against God's wishes...but the reference does not say that God wanted men to practise polygamy, nor does it state how many wives each man was allowed...please can you find THESE references to me, so that I know it is what God (in the Bible) wanted men to do.

Thanks for the explanation re the KJV version of the Bible being used...I think I remember being told the same reasons when I was attending the Lds church.

Once again, re marriage for time and all eternity, you have only been able to make reference to the 'revelations' that JS apparently received...that is no good to a non-believer who has read enough to believe little if any of what JS ever stated was from God and not just his own brain.

Have you referred to my question re Kolob at all being mentioned in the Bible..can you or anyone else help me here?

Thanks in advance :)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 9 2005, 07:35 PM

Thank you for the Scriptural references Amillia...I do see in them that the men were taking more than 1 wife..many wives in fact..and that they were going against God's wishes...but the reference does not say that God wanted men to practise polygamy, nor does it state how many wives each man was allowed...please can you find THESE references to me, so that I know it is what God (in the Bible) wanted men to do.

Thanks for the explanation re the KJV version of the Bible being used...I think I remember being told the same reasons when I was attending the Lds church.

Once again, re marriage for time and all eternity, you have only been able to make reference to the 'revelations' that JS apparently received...that is no good to a non-believer who has read enough to believe little if any of what JS ever stated was from God and not just his own brain. 

Have you referred to my question re Kolob at all being mentioned in the Bible..can you or anyone else help me here?

Thanks in advance :)

There are many teachings in the Bible which are not understood because of their presentation. I have come accross many, but haven't ever written them down because I didn't have a reason. I was studying only for me. I should write a book!

I don't think there has ever been anything written in the Bible as to the number of wives. But if there was it would be somewhere in the laws given to the people of Moses. They had a law for everything!!

However, on second thought, the laws of Moses were lower laws and the laws of eternal marriage are higher laws and therefore would be in the NT under the teachings of Christ and His apostles.

I will see what I can see.

Now, I don't understand why you missed this. I gave you some background to the temple ceremonies and covenants which were too sacred to just put out on the street. They were put under a special guard after the attack on Solomon's temple. These were the Knights Templar.

JS was given several experiences inwhich he was able to regain or restore the doctrines found in the Temple. I will research more for you. But just for you!

Kolob was revelation found in some of the writtings of the books missing in the bible. I will also look that one up. I haven't a lot of time right now, so don't think I won't answer if I don't get back to it tonight.

Forgotten Books of Eden

Book of Enoch

Missing Books of the Bible

[pushka]

Thanks again Amillia...I'm sorry I DID completely overlook your reference to the Knights Templar...actually I am currently very interested in researching them at the mo. as a friend of mine was talking about 'Breaking the Da Vinci Code' in which references to the Knights Templar are made...

Thanks also for your willingness to search the scriptures more regarding whether or not God wanted men to have polygamous marriages, and if so, what no. of wives was permitted.

Thanks for your links to the missing books of the Bible...I will investigate those more closely...:)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 9 2005, 07:25 PM

Thanks again Amillia...I'm sorry I DID completely overlook your reference to the Knights Templar...actually I am currently very interested in researching them at the mo. as a friend of mine was talking about 'Breaking the Da Vinci Code' in which references to the Knights Templar are made...

Thanks also for your willingness to search the scriptures more regarding whether or not God wanted men to have polygamous marriages, and if so, what no. of wives was permitted.

Thanks for your links to the missing books of the Bible...I will investigate those more closely...:)

The Knights Templar were a monastic military order formed at the end of the First Crusade with the mandate of protecting Christian pilgrims on route to the Holy Land. They had no relation whatsoever to the temple of Solomon. These things were fabrications of a later time.

As to polygamy in the Bible...there were three types of polygamy in the Old Testament. The most common was the Levirite polygamy. Women throughout most Old Testament times and places were NOT allowed to hold property. They were not even full human beings according to the law. (how does that strike the modern woman's sensibilities?) Levirite marriage ensured a widow without a son that she would be able to be supported by her dead husband's inheritance. She could NOT inherit the money or property. If she was widowed, having a son was her ONLY chance of being supported. A male relative was expected to marry his brother (or close relative)'s widow and father a child by her. She was bound in marriage to this man, but wasn't even usually expected to live with him after she produced an heir (unless they really liked each other.) After the heir came along, she could have her own tent or home, and enjoy the inheritance through her son. This was the type of marriage that Naomi arranged for Ruth. Through Boaz, Ruth and Naomi could enjoy Naomi's late husband's inheritance. Until then, they were completely desolate.

The second type of polygamy was simply cultural polygamy. Jacob was a cultural polygamist. He actually had only wanted Rachel, but was tricked into marrying Leah, and then given concubines by his wive's in order to concieve more children. This was also the type of polygamy that Abraham practiced. He didn't want Hagar--that was Sarah's idea.

The third type of polygamy was dynastic polygamy. Kings in that area of the world were expected to have lots of wives and children to build up the kingdom and ensure a plethora of heirs in the case of war. Nathan the prophet kept tabs on David, and only allowed him to marry wives of Israelite heritage so that the kingdom wouldn't be led into Idolatry by foreign wives. Obviously Solomon didn't jump on that bandwagon, and all of Nathan's work was for naught.

It's so simple when looked at from an historic perspective. God never commanded polygamy. It seemed to be okay with God because He seemed to allow it. It was part of the world and culture the Patriarch's and their descendants lived in.

[pushka]

Thank you Curvette...I have been reading more about the different types of polygamy and polygyny on forums from www.beliefnet.com in the Mormon debate forum, the Islam Marriage and Relationships forum and in the Judaism Marriage and Relationships forum...

How do you think this stands in these 'latter-days'? Do you think that JS was right to state that it was commanded that men practise polygamy (in spite of having to stop the practise when the US laws outlawed it), on the beliefnet.com Mormon Debate forum there is an argument where one person has quoted scripture from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (maybe you wont call it scripture, but it is transcripts of conversations), in which they state that God commanded them to practise polygamy...and others argue that God didn't command them to do it then, but it was commanded in the Bible, OT, and others, like yourself, say it was just a cultural thing that God didn't object to.

So, what do you think? Were JS and BY right to re-establish the practise amongst the early Lds or not?

Sorry I haven't had chance to investigate the other areas of debate, Knights Tempar and such...thanks for the history Curvette...I will continue to delve into that subject, Eternal Marriage and the missing books from the bible asap...and hopefullly find out a little more about Kolob, as someone also mentioned on beliefnet.com that if you google the word Kolob you cannot find any references to it other than from LDS sources, which seems a little strange...as if the planet was 'made up' by the prophets of this church???

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 10 2005, 01:08 PM

How do you think this stands in these 'latter-days'? Do you think that JS was right to state that it was commanded that men practise polygamy (in spite of having to stop the practise when the US laws outlawed it), on the beliefnet.com Mormon Debate forum there is an argument where one person has quoted scripture from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (maybe you wont call it scripture, but it is transcripts of conversations), in which they state that God commanded them to practise polygamy...and others argue that God didn't command them to do it then, but it was commanded in the Bible, OT, and others, like yourself, say it was just a cultural thing that God didn't object to.

So, what do you think? Were JS and BY right to re-establish the practise amongst the early Lds or not?

I'll tell you what I think. When the Lord wants the people to practice polygamy and they obey, they are blessed. When he doesn't want them to practice polygamy and they disobey and do it anyway, they are cursed.

There is a time and season for everything under the sun. JS was commanded to practice it as was others. Then there were situations which made the Lord take it away. It isn't all that complicated.

There is a scripture in the BofM which states that when it is ordained of God, it is good, when it isn't, it is evil.

When higher laws are taken from among the people, it is because of either one of two reasons. One, the people are not righteous enough, or else it is because the world they live in is too wicked.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 10 2005, 01:08 PM

...and hopefullly find out a little more about Kolob, as someone also mentioned on beliefnet.com that if you google the word Kolob you cannot find any references to it other than from LDS sources, which seems a little strange...as if the planet was 'made up' by the prophets of this church???

If the word Kolob was new with JS, it wasn't made up. The concept of God living on another planet isn't new, I know that. I am still searching, though my eyes are about to bug out of my head! LOL

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 10 2005, 12:08 PM

So, what do you think? Were JS and BY right to re-establish the practise amongst the early Lds or not?

That's a loaded question. I see little or no value in the type of polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith. Polygamy under the leadership of Brigham Young was an extreme hardship on many of the women, but it did produce a society of very hard working, industrious, healthy people. If I remove my emotions completely from this issue and view it in "survival of the fittest" mode, I can see some benefit to the descendants of polygamy.

However, being an extremely empathetic woman, I find it impossible to look at it without emotion. I do have a family line of early polygamists on my mom's side of the family, and reading the family history and what those women went through makes me cringe.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 9 2005, 07:08 PM

Kolob was revelation found in some of the writtings of the books missing in the bible. I will also look that one up. I haven't a lot of time right now, so don't think I won't answer if I don't get back to it tonight.

This is interesting. I haven't read much of the pseudepigrapha. Is Kolob actually mentioned by name in any of these books?