Could Someone Give Me An Actual Ref?

[Amillia]

I can't find anywhere in the scriptures where it teaches the doctrine of intelligences being clothed in spirit body. It seems from Abraham 3:22-23 that spirit and intelligence are the same thing.

[Guest curvette]

I think "intelligence" is one of those words that can be used in several different contexts.

The Prophet Joseph Smith spoke of intelligences as follows: "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them" (TPJS, p. 354).

"God has taken these intelligences and given to them spirit bodies and given them instructions and training. Then he proceeded to create a world for them and sent them as spirits to obtain a mortal body, for which he made preparation. And when they were upon the earth, he gave them instructions on how to go about developing and conducting their lives to make them perfect, so they could return to their Father in heaven after their transitions."

– The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p 32

"Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual."

– Joseph Fielding Smith, as cited in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 13 2005, 12:57 PM

I think "intelligence" is one of those words that can be used in several different contexts.

The Prophet Joseph Smith spoke of intelligences as follows: "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them" (TPJS, p. 354).

"God has taken these intelligences and given to them spirit bodies and given them instructions and training. Then he proceeded to create a world for them and sent them as spirits to obtain a mortal body, for which he made preparation. And when they were upon the earth, he gave them instructions on how to go about developing and conducting their lives to make them perfect, so they could return to their Father in heaven after their transitions."

– The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p 32

"Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual."

– Joseph Fielding Smith, as cited in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism

D&C 93:28

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

D&C 93:29

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

D&C 93:30

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

D&C 93:31

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

D&C 93:32

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

D&C 93:33

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

D&C 93:34

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

D&C 93:35

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

D&C 93:36

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

FB: We know that God created our spirits. Intelligence was never created or made, and therefore we were also in the beginning with God. That is the beginning of creation since we too always existed.

[pushka]

Bible references too please!!! for us non-lds folks!!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Fatboy+Feb 13 2005, 08:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fatboy @ Feb 13 2005, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Feb 13 2005, 12:57 PM

I think "intelligence" is one of those words that can be used in several different contexts.

The Prophet Joseph Smith spoke of intelligences as follows: "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them" (TPJS, p. 354).

"God has taken these intelligences and given to them spirit bodies and given them instructions and training. Then he proceeded to create a world for them and sent them as spirits to obtain a mortal body, for which he made preparation. And when they were upon the earth, he gave them instructions on how to go about developing and conducting their lives to make them perfect, so they could return to their Father in heaven after their transitions."

– The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p 32

"Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual."

– Joseph Fielding Smith, as cited in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism

D&C 93:28

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

D&C 93:29

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

D&C 93:30

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

D&C 93:31

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

D&C 93:32

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

D&C 93:33

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

D&C 93:34

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

D&C 93:35

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

D&C 93:36

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

FB: We know that God created our spirits. Intelligence was never created or made, and therefore we were also in the beginning with God. That is the beginning of creation since we too always existed.

Where in these scriptures does it state that spirit was created?

I see the teachings of later prophets like pres. Kimball and JFSmith, but I don't see the teaching of JS saying anything about spirits being created and intelligences being given spirit bodies....

Of course coming from a prophet....it must be right....but why isn't there any scripture for this doctrine. It seems so fundamental. I mean it really isn't explained very well or given purpose.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 13 2005, 11:52 PM

Of course coming from a prophet....it must be right....but why isn't there any scripture for this doctrine. It seems so fundamental. I mean it really isn't explained very well or given purpose.

No, it isn't explained very well. It's one of those things that is lightly touched upon, but is so fascinating that people have speculated and added to the confusion over the issue. I don't think it really is fundamental in the sense that it's not pertinent to our salvation. Maybe we'll know more about it in the next life.

Pushka. I don't think there are Biblical scripture to support this. I think it's a pretty uniquely LDS doctrine (although I'm not sure.)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 14 2005, 09:06 AM

No, it isn't explained very well. It's one of those things that is lightly touched upon, but is so fascinating that people have speculated and added to the confusion over the issue. I don't think it really is fundamental in the sense that it's not pertinent to our salvation. Maybe we'll know more about it in the next life.

It may not be totally pertinent to our salvation in the sense that the only thing we must know is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but according to the D&C 130:18-19, we are to gain as much intelligence and knowledge as possible to ascend the higher levels of the Kingdom.

[pushka]

Thanks Curvette, I thought that might be the case...which is sad if you don't happen to believe that JS and SK were prophets...

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 14 2005, 08:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 14 2005, 08:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 13 2005, 11:52 PM

Of course coming from a prophet....it must be right....but why isn't there any scripture for this doctrine. It seems so fundamental.  I mean it really isn't explained very well or given purpose.

No, it isn't explained very well. It's one of those things that is lightly touched upon, but is so fascinating that people have speculated and added to the confusion over the issue. I don't think it really is fundamental in the sense that it's not pertinent to our salvation. Maybe we'll know more about it in the next life.

Pushka. I don't think there are Biblical scripture to support this. I think it's a pretty uniquely LDS doctrine (although I'm not sure.)

Please remember that scripture is given as men write what the Holy Ghost inspires them to write. Many scriptures not considered “canon” should still be considered scripture.

Or in other words, all the inspired words from prophets are scripture, and many prophets have been inspired to write many things not fully revealed in the Bible, or Book of Mormon, or any of the other “standard” works.

Thus the mystery is in how to know which words are inspired and which are not, and as I have often said, words alone seldom convey the thoughts those words were meant to convey.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Ray+Feb 14 2005, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Feb 14 2005, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 14 2005, 08:06 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 13 2005, 11:52 PM

Of course coming from a prophet....it must be right....but why isn't there any scripture for this doctrine. It seems so fundamental.  I mean it really isn't explained very well or given purpose.

No, it isn't explained very well. It's one of those things that is lightly touched upon, but is so fascinating that people have speculated and added to the confusion over the issue. I don't think it really is fundamental in the sense that it's not pertinent to our salvation. Maybe we'll know more about it in the next life.

Pushka. I don't think there are Biblical scripture to support this. I think it's a pretty uniquely LDS doctrine (although I'm not sure.)

Please remember that scripture is given as men write what the Holy Ghost inspires them to write. Many scriptures not considered “canon” should still be considered scripture.

Or in other words, all the inspired words from prophets are scripture, and many prophets have been inspired to write many things not fully revealed in the Bible, or Book of Mormon, or any of the other “standard” works.

Thus the mystery is in how to know which words are inspired and which are not, and as I have often said, words alone seldom convey the thoughts those words were meant to convey.

Thank Ray. You are right on all counts.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 14 2005, 11:22 AM

we are to gain as much intelligence

There's that blasted word again--used in a different context! :)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 14 2005, 03:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 14 2005, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 14 2005, 11:22 AM

we are to gain as much intelligence

There's that blasted word again--used in a different context! :)

lol it gets pesky doesn't it?

[pushka]

Okay...so I suppose it doesn't matter really, which religion you belong to...as long as you believe your prophets are the right ones (if your religion believes there are Modern Day Prophets), then you're okay, because nobody will really know till they reach those pearly gates :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 14 2005, 02:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 14 2005, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 14 2005, 11:22 AM

we are to gain as much intelligence

There's that blasted word again--used in a different context! :)

My family and I were discussing the idea of “intelligence” over dinner a few nights ago, and while we are all what I would consider to be “intelligent” people, we all had different ideas about what constitutes “intelligence”. That is, until we all saw the light.

I like to think of “intelligence” as a “ray” of light and truth that can be “seen” as well as “felt” when someone is aware of it. Sometimes a ray is expansive, dispersing light and truth over a large area, and sometimes a ray is narrow, dispersing light and truth over a more specific area, but each ray will be seen and felt to a certain degree by all those who are aware of it.

For example, the sun in our solar system radiates light and truth that can be seen and felt by all things that are aware of it, and while one thing might not be as aware of that ray as something else, perhaps because one thing is closer to that ray than something else, or while one thing may act upon that ray to a greater degree than something else, perhaps because two things act upon that ray in a different way, all things that are aware of that light will be able to “see” and “feel” that light to the degree that they are aware of it.

In other words, a ray of light is as “brilliant” as that light truly is, but not everyone will judge that light to be of the same brilliance.

We also used the CIA as an example, the goal of the CIA being to gather intelligence, and the amount of “intelligence” gathered to be understood as a “ray” of the light and truth which the intelligence brings to someone’s awareness.

Or in other words, someone who considers a source of intelligence to be in error will act upon that “intelligence” in some way other than the way someone else would act upon that intelligence when considering that intelligence to be true. And of course only the truth is true.

We also talked about how gathering intelligence can sometimes seem difficult, but once someone has been obtained a certain level of intelligence it is difficult to see how someone else cannot “see” or “feel” it, especially when being explained by someone who can clearly see and feel it.

Or in other words, someone with a certain degree of intelligence can easily see and feel things made aware by someone of the same or lesser intelligence, but someone who doesn’t have that same degree of intelligence will find it difficult to see and feel things being revealed by a greater intelligence.

And btw, to say that someone lacks intelligence should not imply that they are incapable of obtaining intelligence or more intelligence than they currently have. It simply means that someone does not see and feel the truth in the same way that someone who has that intelligence sees it and feels it.

Or in other words, someone who doesn’t see and feel the power of the Holy Ghost will not see and feel the light and truth that intelligence conveys.

Thus without the Holy Ghost, we cannot teach, and even with the Holy Ghost we can only teach those who can see and feel the intelligence the Holy Ghost can reveal.

[Ray]

Originally posted by pushka@ Feb 14 2005, 04:04 PM

Okay...so I suppose it doesn't matter really, which religion you belong to...as long as you believe your prophets are the right ones (if your religion believes there are Modern Day Prophets), then you're okay, because nobody will really know till they reach those pearly gates :)

I think it matters a great deal which religion you “belong to”, or what your religion is, because to involve yourself in a false religion would be a big waste of your time, not to mention that it wouldn’t help to teach you the truth. Simply believing that your prophets are the “right ones” won’t do you any good if they truly aren’t the right ones.

And FYI, there are many people who know the truth right now, without having to wait until they reach those pearly gates to find out. To believe that you wouldn’t be able to find out until then would be to believe that you remain in confusion until then, and that belief is sad and not at all inspirational. Do you honestly believe that God wants you to believe that?

I testify that I know the truth, whether you know it or not and whether you believe me or not. It is possible to know the truth, and I say that only because I have found it and I know it.

Jesus said “Ask and ye shall receive”, “Seek and ye shall find”, and He wasn’t just uttering some words that have no power. I testify that I know Jesus was telling the truth, not because I read those words in a book and simply believe those words were uttered by Jesus, but because I have received and I have found, just as the person who uttered those words said I would.

If you do not know these things to be true, it is best for you to simply say you do not know them to be true until you do know them to be true. And for your own sake, beware of giving a false witness for which you will be judged just as much as I will be judged for saying that I do know these things to be true.

It is possible to know the truth of things that you cannot “see” with your physical senses, because the Holy Ghost can reveal the truth of these things to you. I am a living witness, and just one of many who knows these things to be true.

And btw, to be more specific about what I claim to know, I know that:

Jesus is the Christ and only begotten son of God,

Joseph Smith Jr. was one of His many prophets, just as Isaiah and Nephi and Brigham Young were His prophets, and as President Hinkley is a prophet today.

The Bible and Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants contain many of our Lord's inspired words, as revealed to His prophets through the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church of Christ on the face of the Earth today, speaking of the church as a whole and not of individual persons.

I know many other things too, speaking of things which I can only know through the power of the Holy Ghost, but the statements above are the keys by which I know and can know all other things.

[pushka]

Okay Ray...thank you for sharing your testimony of your beliefs...

I would argue that you believe those things are the truth, rather than actually know them to be true, because of your faith...

I think the same of all religions and their members' beliefs that theirs is the true church.

Of course it would be futile to follow a false religion..for example the kinds of sects/cults that persuade their members to commit mass suicide, or forbid their members from having contact with their families once they have joined the cult, and then half starve them and make them beg on the streets to make money for their organisation...

I do not see any difference between your claims that you are receiving Revelation now, or the same claims being made by any other religions that they are receiving Revelation now.

As long as you are a 'religious' person, a follower of Jesus Christ, and try to live your life according to his teachings...sermon on the mount comes to mind here, then I feel you have just as much chance of getting to Heaven as the Mormons or any other religious people who's hearts are true. Of course atheists need not worry about reaching Heaven or descending to Hell, but they should live in the best way possible too...the most appropriate phrase from Jesus that I can think of would be (in my own words i think) : Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 14 2005, 05:04 PM

Okay...so I suppose it doesn't matter really, which religion you belong to...as long as you believe your prophets are the right ones (if your religion believes there are Modern Day Prophets), then you're okay, because nobody will really know till they reach those pearly gates :)

Doing what makes your own faith grow and allowing others the same priveledge will allow all to be a lot better off in the here after than it will be for those who went about trying to destroy the faith of others just because they didn't see things the same way. :)

[pushka]

I agree Amillia...but don't Mormons try to destroy the faith others have in their own religions when they try to convert them...quoting scriptures that agree with mormon beliefs which are at odds with other religions' beliefs? I believe this might have been raised in another topic somewhere recently.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 15 2005, 08:37 AM

I agree Amillia...but don't Mormons try to destroy the faith others have in their own religions when they try to convert them...quoting scriptures that agree with mormon beliefs which are at odds with other religions' beliefs?  I believe this might have been raised in another topic somewhere recently.

I think the difference between anti-mormons coming to this board and splashing sensational attacks against the church (with no valid alternative) and having missionaries go out and offering the people an understanding of the gospel in a positive light and asking them to pray and get an answer from God is the the same difference between positive and negative.

I have yet to see an anti ask me to pray and get an answer from God about all the negative stuff they throw out. It is nothing more than a mud slinging campaign from the anti mormons to the mormons. Not so with the missionaries message.

[Ray]

Originally posted by pushka@ Feb 15 2005, 07:37 AM

...but don't Mormons try to destroy the faith others have in their own religions when they try to convert them...quoting scriptures that agree with mormon beliefs which are at odds with other religions' beliefs? I believe this might have been raised in another topic somewhere recently.

I am a so-called Mormon, or Latter-day Saint, and I have never set out to destroy the faith of anyone in their own religion, nor have I ever tried to “convert” other people. What I have done, and what I continue to do, is try to clarify the idea of what faith is and what that faith should be centered in to be effective.

To put it simply, faith is an assurance that something is true, and faith or an assurance must be centered in something that is true to be effective. Otherwise a person has faith or an assurance that something is true when it truly isn’t, and that doesn’t do anybody any good.

In other words, I acknowledge that you and everybody else has the “RIGHT” to have faith or an assurance in anything you want to have faith in, but I encourage you to “Ask” and “Seek” for the truth in all things and have faith in only those things.

I hope you now truly understand my intentions.

From my own personal experiences, I have found that the truth can only be found through faith from God, or in other words, from receiving an assurance from God that something is true. Before I found that out, a lot of things seemed to make sense to me, or seemed to be quite possibly true, but I didn’t know for SURE whether or not something was true until I received faith or an assurance from God, and I now encourage everybody to do what I did because it worked for me, just as Somebody told me it would.

That’s all I’m really trying to say.

If you claim to have faith or an assurance that the Methodist religion is true, or that the Baptist religion is true, or that the Catholic religion is true, or that any other religion is true, you can claim to have faith or an assurance in that religion from now until forever and I won’t ever try to deny your right to have that faith, but I would encourage you to make sure that God would assure you of the same thing. And to make sure of that you need to receive an assurance from God letting you know what He will assure you of.

Or in other words, I recommend Asking God, and Seeking the truth from God, rather than making up your mind that something is true merely because it makes sense to you.

And now some questions for you to consider:

Do you honestly believe God would assure somebody that something is true when it isn’t true?

Do you honestly believe the Methodist religion AND the Baptist religion AND the Catholic religion AND the LDS religion are ALL true, considering the differences in these religions?

Considering the differences in these religions, how could God possibly assure people that each one of these religions is true?

Could it be that God isn’t assuring people that these different religions are true, but that He is assuring people that certain beliefs or doctrines held by a particular religion are true?

For example, the Methodist religion AND the Baptist religion AND the Catholic religion AND the LDS religion ALL espouse certain beliefs that are common to those religions, that Jesus is the Christ, for instance, and if that belief is true, God could be assuring all of the people in those different religions that that particular belief is true, WITHOUT giving His assurance that ALL the beliefs espoused by those religions are true.

And btw, I testify that Jesus is the Christ, no matter what somebody else may think, because God has given me His assurance that this is true.

[Amillia]

I think that it isn't the religion that is confirmed by Christ, but the essence of good in the people that he confirms. IOWs, someone can be LDS and not be faithful spiritually, and Christ won't confirm truth to them. While someone can be Catholic and have truth confirmed to them.

There are exmos who claim they never received a confirmation of truth of anything, even though they prayed about it, while some of other religions are given confirmations through the Spirit of the truths they espouse with their whole heart.

I contend that it is the heart of the people who are sincere and full hearted that receive confirmations that what they are doing is right or that their hearts are right.

However, when one, being totally sincere, is looking for not only a confirmation of the truth, but the only true church; they, if totally with their full intent of heart, might mind and spirit are seeking truth and the Lord's will on the most perfect level, they will receive the varification that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only fully complete church on the earth today.

Confused? LOL

What I am trying to say is, that it is possible for those of other faiths, who are righteous BUT not seeking for more, to receive a confirmation of what they are doing in another church to be sufficient for their spiritual needs on the premis they aren't seeking further but are good, sincere people who receive validation for what they are doing and the church they are doing it in, but they aren't told they have the only true church on the earth.

clearer? NO? Sorry. :)

[pushka]

Originally posted by Ray+Feb 15 2005, 10:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Feb 15 2005, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -pushka@ Feb 15 2005, 07:37 AM

...but don't Mormons try to destroy the faith others have in their own religions when they try to convert them...quoting scriptures that agree with mormon beliefs which are at odds with other religions' beliefs? I believe this might have been raised in another topic somewhere recently.

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray

@ Feb 15 2005, 10:21 AM

Could it be that God isn’t assuring people that these different religions are true, but that He is assuring people that certain beliefs or doctrines held by a particular religion are true?

For example, the Methodist religion AND the Baptist religion AND the Catholic religion AND the LDS religion ALL espouse certain beliefs that are common to those religions, that Jesus is the Christ, for instance, and if that belief is true, God could be assuring all of the people in those different religions that that particular belief is true, WITHOUT giving His assurance that ALL the beliefs espoused by those religions are true.

Thanks for your answers Ray and Amillia...I do appreciate them.

I am not trying to be an anti-mormon, mormon-basher or anything...I just find it difficult to imagine believing in your church, since I have found that I no longer believe the JS visions, revelations etc. I am not stating that anyone else ought not to believe these things, and if you find that prayer makes you believe them, that is fine...

I am not looking to find the one true church, however I do know that everyone who belongs to a certain religion believes that theirs is the one true church, the same as you do, and so shouldn't be judged harshly for this.

Ray, you made some really good points with your questions...I haven't quoted them all...as I said, I am not looking for one true church, I'm not convinced that there is one...I feel that following the teachings of Jesus and of some of the other spiritual leaders of other religions is a good way to live..I am not looking for any rewards or a place in Heaven however...but if I did belong to another religion and followed that same lifestyle, and my heart was true, then I would expect the same rewards.

Yes, I believe that God would be able to assure people that certain beliefs or doctrines, common to many religions are true...and that is why, if I am to be 'religious' at all, I would prefer to look at lots of different religions and think about...pray even, that those particular doctrines are true and are not going to be destructive to me or anybody else practising them...

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka+Feb 15 2005, 12:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pushka @ Feb 15 2005, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Feb 15 2005, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by -pushka@ Feb 15 2005, 07:37 AM

...but don't Mormons try to destroy the faith others have in their own religions when they try to convert them...quoting scriptures that agree with mormon beliefs which are at odds with other religions' beliefs? I believe this might have been raised in another topic somewhere recently.

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@ Feb 15 2005, 10:21 AM

Could it be that God isn’t assuring people that these different religions are true, but that He is assuring people that certain beliefs or doctrines held by a particular religion are true?

For example, the Methodist religion AND the Baptist religion AND the Catholic religion AND the LDS religion ALL espouse certain beliefs that are common to those religions, that Jesus is the Christ, for instance, and if that belief is true, God could be assuring all of the people in those different religions that that particular belief is true, WITHOUT giving His assurance that ALL the beliefs espoused by those religions are true.

Thanks for your answers Ray and Amillia...I do appreciate them.

I am not trying to be an anti-mormon, mormon-basher or anything...I just find it difficult to imagine believing in your church, since I have found that I no longer believe the JS visions, revelations etc. I am not stating that anyone else ought not to believe these things, and if you find that prayer makes you believe them, that is fine...

I am not looking to find the one true church, however I do know that everyone who belongs to a certain religion believes that theirs is the one true church, the same as you do, and so shouldn't be judged harshly for this.

Ray, you made some really good points with your questions...I haven't quoted them all...as I said, I am not looking for one true church, I'm not convinced that there is one...I feel that following the teachings of Jesus and of some of the other spiritual leaders of other religions is a good way to live..I am not looking for any rewards or a place in Heaven however...but if I did belong to another religion and followed that same lifestyle, and my heart was true, then I would expect the same rewards.

Yes, I believe that God would be able to assure people that certain beliefs or doctrines, common to many religions are true...and that is why, if I am to be 'religious' at all, I would prefer to look at lots of different religions and think about...pray even, that those particular doctrines are true and are not going to be destructive to me or anybody else practising them...

You make some very good points and ~ I didn't mean for you to feel that you were in the catagory of anti's. I enjoy discussing things with you!

[pushka]

Thanks Amillia...I really enjoy visiting this site and others and debating issues...and learning more as I join in the debates...:)

[Ray]

Originally posted by pushka@ Feb 15 2005, 11:47 AM

I am not trying to be an anti-mormon, mormon-basher or anything...I just find it difficult to imagine believing in your church, since I have found that I no longer believe the JS visions, revelations etc. I am not stating that anyone else ought not to believe these things, and if you find that prayer makes you believe them, that is fine...

Joseph Smith Jr. himself said that if he hadn’t seen those visions for himself, he also would not have believed them. He also said that if a minister of religion found him to be in error on certain issues, we would expect that minister to correct him in an appropriate way while trying to help him better understand the truth, indicating that the “appropriate way” would have been to fellowship him with LOVE while trying to explain things with patience and compassion.

I hope you know that I am also trying to fellowship you with love, pushka, and if at the end of the day we still do not agree on a particular issue, I hope you know that I do not and will not wish you any harm. I believe people should be judged and punished for nothing other than their own wrongful actions, and not their beliefs. But please remember that a bad attitude is also a wrongful action, and a bad attitude usually starts with a bad belief while leading to an even worse wrongful action.

I am not looking to find the one true church, however I do know that everyone who belongs to a certain religion believes that theirs is the one true church, the same as you do, and so shouldn't be judged harshly for this.

Perhaps once day when you Seek the one true church, you will Find it. It’s hard to imagine that you would ever be able to find it without looking.

Btw, I’ve talked to many people in other religions who claim to have found true religion, while asking them to explain to me how and why they believe their religion is the true one, and as of yet I’m still waiting for someone to tell me something good that I can’t find in my own religion as well. Or in other words, we (LDS) invite everyone in other religions to come to us and see if there is anything good that we can add to their religion, and as of yet, I haven’t found anything as good as what we have found and teach ourselves.

Ray, you made some really good points with your questions...I haven't quoted them all...as I said, I am not looking for one true church, I'm not convinced that there is one...I feel that following the teachings of Jesus and of some of the other spiritual leaders of other religions is a good way to live..I am not looking for any rewards or a place in Heaven however...but if I did belong to another religion and followed that same lifestyle, and my heart was true, then I would expect the same rewards.

You’re making a very good point here, pushka, noting that you would expect the same reward as anyone else who is living the proper lifestyle. Ultimately, we will all be judged only for our actions, based on the knowledge and understanding we had when we committed those actions. Just remember that actions start with a belief and, as I just said, a bad belief often results in a bad action. That is why I believe we should all Seek to know God’s will, to know and understand what He expects from us, instead of using our own thoughts to judge whether or not something is right or wrong.

Yes, I believe that God would be able to assure people that certain beliefs or doctrines, common to many religions are true...and that is why, if I am to be 'religious' at all, I would prefer to look at lots of different religions and think about...pray even, that those particular doctrines are true and are not going to be destructive to me or anybody else practicing them...

Heh, well, that’s one way to go about it, I suppose. You may find that will keep you busy for a very long time, though, because the last I heard there are over a thousand so-called Christian religions and hundreds of other religions not claiming to be “Christian” at all. I think it’s sad and a little silly to think that God wants all of us to investigate a certain number of the religions on Earth before being able to determine which religion is the right one, but if that’s the way you think you should go about it, have at it.