Cal Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 6 2005, 01:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 6 2005, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Taoist_Saint@Apr 6 2005, 12:40 PM <!--QuoteBegin--JRodan@Apr 6 2005, 05:30 AM Originally posted by jimmy_l:Snow, do you get upset when somebody deliberately misquotes somebody from your church or takes a quote ridiculously out of context? (Kimball consulting with his good buddy and convicted murderer Mark Hoffman)In 1960, future Prophet Spencer W. Kimball gave a speech at the LDS General Conference. Here's an excerpt... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today...they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people....For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised....The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation." "At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl -- sixteen -- sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents -- on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather....These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated." Source: Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, 922-923. So is that out of context or this as disturbing as it sounds? It's out of context. In or out of contexts, it's pretty hard to defend it, based on today's social values and standards. Let's not defend it, let's just say it was his own benighted opinion, to which he is entitled, and is not binding on the church membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Have a nice summer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 6 2005, 02:39 PM Yes they will. But then those who have a true prophet don't have to make excuses do they! D&C 130: 15 "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old (Dec 1890 - Dec 1891), thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."Yeah....so what's your excuse? Yes, but, it doesn't say whether JS will see God because he returns to earth, or he will see God because he (JS) has died and gone to heaven. I think that is what PD is refering to.As for me, I am worried more about my first going than Christ's second coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 6 2005, 03:21 PM So he didn't know what "God" was actually telling him? And I thought Mormons believed a "stupor" of thought wasn't from God.... Well, if it WAS God talking to him, who are we to question it, and if it wasn't, why does it matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Apr 6 2005, 04:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Apr 6 2005, 04:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Apr 6 2005, 03:53 PM I may sound quite skeptical of SOME claims by SOME Mormons, but, I also find some of the criticisms of Mormonism, equally or maybe more disingenuous. I agree with you.I don't believe in the Church at all, but I also think that alot of anti-Mormon criticism is silly...especially when made by non-Mormon Christians.But I made that last comment because I seem to remember you being sort of "anti" last year...or was it longer...I have been away from this forum for so long.But sorry if I am being to personal...it is possible that I am thinking of someone else. No, you probably are thinking of me. I do have a tendency to overplay the devil's advocate bit. I'm not really as skeptical of Mormonism as my posts sometimes sound. As a way of life and as part of my own cultural heritage, everything taken in its totality, Mormonism, IMHO, is one of the most amazing social experiments in the history of mankind. If anything was "God inspired", it was. It ain't perfect, and some of the "History" that LDS promote is a bit bogus, but I would find it hard to believe that a divinely inspired religion wouldn't have its human flaws and anomolies.I don't believe in a lot of things that some people who claim to be the best of mormons believe. I don't think that much of anything in Genesis should be taken very seriously, for example. I also don't think that JS got it all right in the things he claimed to be translating. But I DO think that there was inspiration in the totality of it all---warts and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Have a nice summer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Apr 6 2005, 04:25 PM Ok, fair enough :) Pardon me for not remembering if you have already told us, but were you ever a Mormon? If so, how did you come to leave mormonism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Who said anything about "stupor of thought"? Well, if God told me something, Im pretty sure I'd understand it. Whereas "God" told Smith something, and he was still left in the dark. He asked a question that no man is to have the answer to, and got a puzzle in answer; it sure wasn't the false prophecy critics try to paint it for. Turns out he saw "the face of the Son of Man" much sooner than he thought he would... If no man is to have the answer, then why did "God" give one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by Outshined@Apr 6 2005, 03:52 PM Who said anything about "stupor of thought"? He asked a question that no man is to have the answer to, and got a puzzle in answer; it sure wasn't the false prophecy critics try to paint it for. Turns out he saw "the face of the Son of Man" much sooner than he thought he would... Exactly.God was being deliberately ambiguous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 God was being deliberately ambiguous. Yeah....God was just pretending... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 6 2005, 07:02 PM Well, if God told me something, Im pretty sure I'd understand it. I wouldn't be so sure. His mind is a bit above yours.If no man is to have the answer, then why did "God" give one?Doesn't look like He did; He just gave JS something to think about, didn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amillia Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 6 2005, 03:39 PM Yes they will. But then those who have a true prophet don't have to make excuses do they! D&C 130: 15 "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old (Dec 1890 - Dec 1891), thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."Yeah....so what's your excuse? He didn't live that long ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Good news everyone..... Jeffs isn't a true prophet. We're all still here, and Christ has not come. Congratulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amillia Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 6 2005, 07:02 PM Who said anything about "stupor of thought"? Well, if God told me something, Im pretty sure I'd understand it. Whereas "God" told Smith something, and he was still left in the dark. He asked a question that no man is to have the answer to, and got a puzzle in answer; it sure wasn't the false prophecy critics try to paint it for. Turns out he saw "the face of the Son of Man" much sooner than he thought he would... If no man is to have the answer, then why did "God" give one? You have got to be kidding right? You know you have just closed the door on understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 6 2005, 06:31 PM God was being deliberately ambiguous. Yeah....God was just pretending... No he wasn't. He was gently telling Joseph Smith that He wasn't going to give him the answer Joseph was asking for, and that Joseph shouldn't be asking to know something that the Lord had previously said no man was to know.I suppose you think the Lord was "just pretending" when He used vague parables in the New Testament. (Who knows what the Parable of the Unjust Steward is supposed to mean, anyway?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amillia Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 7 2005, 10:26 AM Good news everyone..... Jeffs isn't a true prophet. We're all still here, and Christ has not come. Congratulations. Didn't you hear on the news last night? They were claiming that they never stated that there was a end of the world thing happening. It was all our fault and the medias fault that we got that wrong impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Have a nice summer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 You have got to be kidding right? You know you have just closed the door on understanding. No, Im not kidding. Tell me why God would say 2000 years ago that no man, not even the angels in heaven, knows the time of the 2nd coming. And then would turn around and tell joseph smith that if he lived until 1890-91, he would see Him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 PD, No he wasn't. He was gently telling Joseph Smith that He wasn't going to give him the answer Joseph was asking for, and that Joseph shouldn't be asking to know something that the Lord had previously said no man was to know. But that's just it. He did give him an answer. If he lived till he was 85, he would see Him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 7 2005, 02:20 PM PD, No he wasn't. He was gently telling Joseph Smith that He wasn't going to give him the answer Joseph was asking for, and that Joseph shouldn't be asking to know something that the Lord had previously said no man was to know. But that's just it. He did give him an answer. If he lived till he was 85, he would see Him! And Joseph Smith specifically noted in verse 16 that this message could mean multiple things, including (1) that the Lord would appear on the earth at the Second Coming or (2) that Joseph Smith would himself die and see the Lord within 85 years of his birth. Which he did, when he died in 1844. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushka Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Taoist Saint, thanks for the link to your story...it's very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Have a nice summer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushka Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Yes I just noticed... Btw...I read one or two Jack Kerouac books back in the 80's, must admit that I couldn't quote from any now...but I might get round to re-reading them one day...I just wondered what the link was between your story and his Dharma Bum book? I can't recall reading that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Have a nice summer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushka Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Thanks Tao...you might have inspired me to go and search for that book...I need some interesting stuff to read, too many text books sitting around me at the moment, for my liking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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