When Did Terri Shiavo Die?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 05:13 PM

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not

No, it's not. She did have some brain activity. If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period. Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going. It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

If Terri Schiavo truly had "no brain activity," she would have had to be on a heart-lung machine, wouldn't have responded to stimuli, couldn't have opened and closed her eyes, and couldn't have made noise.

Now, it does look like she had little or no higher brain activity, as her cerebral cortex, where the higher brain functions associated with consciousness are mostly operate, was pretty much shot.

The heart beat and the breathing was a function of the brain stem ~ strickly reflexes, not life.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 1 2005, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 1 2005, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 11:09 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:43 AM

I don't know if the heart is the pivital link to life or not. My son's spirit left his body while his heart was still pumping. They call it an out of body experience as well.

He floated up to the ceiling of the school and looked down on his body. To those around him, he was just unconscious.  So what is death of the body? What about the stories of Alma the elder? He lay as if dead.

What about the stories of those Ammon converted? What is death? Can we really know? I think in Terri's case it was a good thing to stop the farcical mimic of life and allow a complete end to her existence ~ for her, not her husband or parents, but for her anad I think her husband was concerned for her, not himself.

Yes, I remember you telling me about that on IM.

My point is that a spirit can leave(for a limited time only) without a person being dead. It is the heartbeat that determines life.

I don't know if it can really be considered life if the heart beat contnues ~ when there is no brain activity. God has to decide I guess.

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not, so for now let's just place that right here*

If I understand this, if the body or (shell as it has been described) remains alive with a heart beat...but because a brain lacks activity the person is considered dead right? It just doesn't sound right.

To me a people are alive until their spirit leaves their body.

You see I have this belief that our bodies merely house our spirits. We are not our bodies; we are the observer inside of the body.

If you were to say "I am so sorry" and really mean it... try it now, and say it out loud. Did you do anything when your hands? If it didn't work this time, try it again when you express something sincere and meaningful. When I do this I usually put my hand close to my heart. It is an instinct and I believe that we do this because first, it is our heart felt words, and second because that is where the observer is. It is the observer who controls our brains and our brains control our bodies.

I believe that the reason we were sent here was to be tested. How does one be tested when there is no brain activity, no thinking, no feeling, no existence?

Having already fulfilled one element of this life's purposes, gaining a body, it would be no longer to hang on to said body after the brain has stopped functioning.

I don't believe God measures life the way men do.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 1 2005, 10:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 1 2005, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 05:13 PM

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not

No, it's not. She did have some brain activity. If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period. Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going. It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

If Terri Schiavo truly had "no brain activity," she would have had to be on a heart-lung machine, wouldn't have responded to stimuli, couldn't have opened and closed her eyes, and couldn't have made noise.

Now, it does look like she had little or no higher brain activity, as her cerebral cortex, where the higher brain functions associated with consciousness are mostly operate, was pretty much shot.

The heart beat and the breathing was a function of the brain stem ~ strickly reflexes, not life.

The AMA and ABA, and the law, say different. It's not a very good life, I'll grant, but life in a PVS is still legally and medically life.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Apr 2 2005, 12:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Apr 2 2005, 12:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 10:52 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 05:13 PM

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not

No, it's not. She did have some brain activity. If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period. Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going. It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

If Terri Schiavo truly had "no brain activity," she would have had to be on a heart-lung machine, wouldn't have responded to stimuli, couldn't have opened and closed her eyes, and couldn't have made noise.

Now, it does look like she had little or no higher brain activity, as her cerebral cortex, where the higher brain functions associated with consciousness are mostly operate, was pretty much shot.

The heart beat and the breathing was a function of the brain stem ~ strickly reflexes, not life.

The AMA and ABA, and the law, say different. It's not a very good life, I'll grant, but life in a PVS is still legally and medically life.

Well they have been known to be wrong before.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 11:52 PM

The heart beat and the breathing was a function of the brain stem ~ strickly reflexes, not life.

Actually, from all I can find plowing through some of the most tedious stuff imaginable, PD's copied and pasted definition of legal/clinical death, no brain function, including no brainSTEM function defines legal/clinical death. So, with brainstem function, and no cortical function Terri would have been technically alive, but in the state called "persistant vegetative". I said this myself last night, or the night before, and posted a link for to the definition of PVS, so I don't know what came over me tonight except perhaps I was flustered by the mention of Dr. Sanjay Gupta, whom I loathe, and who is into the same kind of mumbo jumbo mysticism George Felos is criticized for.

And death is a clinical diagnosis, you don't need an EEG if you have a patient who is unable to breathe on their own and you know they have no brainstem function; the EEG measures primarily cortical function, and Terri's was "flat". Although the physician who said this on the Dan Abrams show (which I actually watched but ignored Dr. Gupta)may have been hired by Michael Schiavo, and was perhaps "dumbing down" his terminology to cater to the audience, he was still, IMO, right. To me this means Terri was a non thinking, non feeling, non functioning body kept breathing by a brain stem left intact by some awful fluke of fate.

Again, IMO, the fine line between "brain death" and PVS is what makes this case so sad and so moving for all of us; it takes more than the ability to breathe on one's own to make one "alive", and while I can see why grieving parents might go a little "mad" and seek to keep a daughter with them, here on this earth, in a state of breathing death, I KNOW, beyond any shadow of doubt that there are none, or close enough to none of those among us (not just here, I am speaking of "us" as people in general) who would choose that state of mindless rotting existence for ourselves.

I still think that the evidence tells that through all of this Michael Schiavo has acted with a much greater degree of grace and compassion than have the Schindlers, and, perhaps the greatest evidence we have for this has been his low profile and silence as the Schindler's played the crowd. And, in the end I think the Schindler's actions will finally betray them. we are seeing this now, with the selling of the list of contributors, and the literal attempt to pick a fist fight at Terri's actual deathbed on the part of Bobby Schindler.

A couple of things struck me in the National College of Neurology definition of PVS that I posted last night, maybe the night before. One, is that after 12 moonths, the chances of recovery from a PVS are nil. Yet, it is well documented that Michael kept trying therapies and experimental treatments well past that 12 month mark.

And, for those who claim Terri received sub standard, careless, or shoddy care: the expected lifespan of someone in a PVS is 2-5 years. Terri survived 15; this speaks to her having had exceptional care.

It is late and I am rambling I know, sorry.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 03:45 PM

You see I have this belief that our bodies merely house our spirits. We are not our bodies; we are the observer inside of the body.

Yes

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Idacat+Apr 2 2005, 01:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Apr 2 2005, 01:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 11:52 PM

The heart beat and the breathing was a function of the brain stem ~ strickly reflexes, not life.

Actually, from all I can find plowing through some of the most tedious stuff imaginable, PD's copied and pasted definition of legal/clinical death, no brain function, including no brainSTEM function defines legal/clinical death. So, with brainstem function, and no cortical function Terri would have been technically alive, but in the state called "persistant vegetative". I said this myself last night, or the night before, and posted a link for to the definition of PVS, so I don't know what came over me tonight except perhaps I was flustered by the mention of Dr. Sanjay Gupta, whom I loathe, and who is into the same kind of mumbo jumbo mysticism George Felos is criticized for.

And death is a clinical diagnosis, you don't need an EEG if you have a patient who is unable to breathe on their own and you know they have no brainstem function; the EEG measures primarily cortical function, and Terri's was "flat". Although the physician who said this on the Dan Abrams show (which I actually watched but ignored Dr. Gupta)may have been hired by Michael Schiavo, and was perhaps "dumbing down" his terminology to cater to the audience, he was still, IMO, right. To me this means Terri was a non thinking, non feeling, non functioning body kept breathing by a brain stem left intact by some awful fluke of fate.

Again, IMO, the fine line between "brain death" and PVS is what makes this case so sad and so moving for all of us; it takes more than the ability to breathe on one's own to make one "alive", and while I can see why grieving parents might go a little "mad" and seek to keep a daughter with them, here on this earth, in a state of breathing death, I KNOW, beyond any shadow of doubt that there are none, or close enough to none of those among us (not just here, I am speaking of "us" as people in general) who would choose that state of mindless rotting existence for ourselves.

I still think that the evidence tells that through all of this Michael Schiavo has acted with a much greater degree of grace and compassion than have the Schindlers, and, perhaps the greatest evidence we have for this has been his low profile and silence as the Schindler's played the crowd. And, in the end I think the Schindler's actions will finally betray them. we are seeing this now, with the selling of the list of contributors, and the literal attempt to pick a fist fight at Terri's actual deathbed on the part of Bobby Schindler.

A couple of things struck me in the National College of Neurology definition of PVS that I posted last night, maybe the night before. One, is that after 12 moonths, the chances of recovery from a PVS are nil. Yet, it is well documented that Michael kept trying therapies and experimental treatments well past that 12 month mark.

And, for those who claim Terri received sub standard, careless, or shoddy care: the expected lifespan of someone in a PVS is 2-5 years. Terri survived 15; this speaks to her having had exceptional care.

It is late and I am rambling I know, sorry.

Thanks ~ one thing about Michael still trying stuff after the 12 months ~ do we really know that it wasn't motivated by the parents through guilt that he had all this money to keep Terri, and then he lets her go after only 12 months?

We really don't know all that was really going on with the family ~ except judging from what is happening now and I would say it is a pretty safe bet that Michael was afraid not to keep trying when he still had money~cause of the parents.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 1 2005, 10:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 1 2005, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 11:09 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:43 AM

I don't know if the heart is the pivital link to life or not. My son's spirit left his body while his heart was still pumping. They call it an out of body experience as well.

He floated up to the ceiling of the school and looked down on his body. To those around him, he was just unconscious.  So what is death of the body? What about the stories of Alma the elder? He lay as if dead.

What about the stories of those Ammon converted? What is death? Can we really know? I think in Terri's case it was a good thing to stop the farcical mimic of life and allow a complete end to her existence ~ for her, not her husband or parents, but for her anad I think her husband was concerned for her, not himself.

Yes, I remember you telling me about that on IM.

My point is that a spirit can leave(for a limited time only) without a person being dead. It is the heartbeat that determines life.

I don't know if it can really be considered life if the heart beat contnues ~ when there is no brain activity. God has to decide I guess.

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not, so for now let's just place that right here*

If I understand this, if the body or (shell as it has been described) remains alive with a heart beat...but because a brain lacks activity the person is considered dead right? It just doesn't sound right.

To me a people are alive until their spirit leaves their body.

You see I have this belief that our bodies merely house our spirits. We are not our bodies; we are the observer inside of the body.

If you were to say "I am so sorry" and really mean it... try it now, and say it out loud. Did you do anything when your hands? If it didn't work this time, try it again when you express something sincere and meaningful. When I do this I usually put my hand close to my heart. It is an instinct and I believe that we do this because first, it is our heart felt words, and second because that is where the observer is. It is the observer who controls our brains and our brains control our bodies.

I believe that the reason we were sent here was to be tested. How does one be tested when there is no brain activity, no thinking, no feeling, no existence?

Having already fulfilled one element of this life's purposes, gaining a body, it would be no longer to hang on to said body after the brain has stopped functioning.

I don't believe God measures life the way men do.

Amillia,

I've actually given a good deal of thought to the religious implications of brain injuries, because I've seen how drastically they can alter a person's personality. You could go so far as to say that the very essence of a person can be changed utterly by a good smack on the head, or a few minutes underwater. My grandmother -- a sweet U of U sorority girl -- suffered from severe Alzheimer's and turned into someone entirely different -- nasty, paranoid, and bitter. Her consciousness in the last two years of her life was so utterly different from what had been before that it's hard for me to think that it was the manifestation of the same spirit that had animated her earlier.

Once you start entertaining the thought that a living, breathing human body is no longer "ensouled", how far do you go? That's not a slippery-slope argument; it's a sincere question. If a person in a PVS no longer has a spirit residing in the body, at what precise point does the spirit leave? The boundaries of PVS are fuzzier than most of the anti-tube people in this case would have us believe. Even if this were not true, what about the brain-injured person who's not quite PVS, but is almost so, having only the most rudimentary consciousness? (Barbara Streisand, for example.) Just how hard do you have to get your bell rung before the spirit gets blasted out?

My speculation is that intelligence -- the core of a person's consciousness -- can never be diminished by damage to the brain. (I think can can be diminished by spiritual decay, but that's another topic.) Might it be that, as a person's earthly body, including the brain, decays or is damaged so that the true self cannot be expressed through it, that the person's consciousness shifts to the spirit world, leaving only a toehold of life in the damaged body until it dies completely? Certainly my grandmother's experience was consistent with her spirit leaving her in stages. Since there is one school of religious thinking that holds that God exists outside of time (the Book of Mormon says yes; the Book of Abraham says no), I don't see any great problem with this. I don't think of a day a person spends on earth as a day spent outside of eternity; from an eternal perspective, everything happens simultaneously. So I don't think "Let that poor brain-damaged person get out of that body and into the eternities." The most important part of her spirit is probably already there.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Ida,

I still think that the evidence tells that through all of this Michael Schiavo has acted with a much greater degree of grace and compassion than have the Schindlers, and, perhaps the greatest evidence we have for this has been his low profile and silence as the Schindler's played the crowd.

Of course, when you're winning, you can afford to keep a low profile. Michael Schiavo was holding aces over kings from the minute Judge Greer handed down the original court decision.

[Amillia]

Since there is one school of religious thinking that holds that God exists outside of time (the Book of Mormon says yes; the Book of Abraham says no), I don't see any great problem with this. I don't think of a day a person spends on earth as a day spent outside of eternity; from an eternal perspective, everything happens simultaneously. So I don't think "Let that poor brain-damaged person get out of that body and into the eternities." The most important part of her spirit is probably already there.

I agree, but could you give me some references in the BofM and Abraham which don't agree, so I can read that for myself?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Idacat+Apr 2 2005, 12:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Apr 2 2005, 12:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 03:45 PM

You see I have this belief that our bodies merely house our spirits. We are not our bodies; we are the observer inside of the body.

Yes

I believe the soul consists of both the body and the spirit (see D&C 88:15; 93:33). I don't buy the Neoplatonist idea that matter is inherently corrupt, and that "spirit" exists most purely when it is separated from matter. The body -- God's creation, and His temple -- is part of the soul, and in the resurrection the corrupt body will be changed into -- not replaced by -- a glorious body like Christ's.

Now if it had been up to me, maybe I would have created man's material body with a sturdier noggin, so things like PVS wouldn't happen and present us with ethical quandraries like the Schiavo case.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 2 2005, 12:48 AM

Since there is one school of religious thinking that holds that God exists outside of time (the Book of Mormon says yes; the Book of Abraham says no), I don't see any great problem with this. I don't think of a day a person spends on earth as a day spent outside of eternity; from an eternal perspective, everything happens simultaneously. So I don't think "Let that poor brain-damaged person get out of that body and into the eternities." The most important part of her spirit is probably already there.

I agree, but could you give me some references in the BofM and Abraham which don't agree, so I can read that for myself?

Dang, you're up late on a Friday night. Give me a minute and I'll get the references.

(a few minutes later)

Alma 40:8 --

"Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men."

Abraham 3:4 --

"And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

To summarize and contrast: Alma says all of time is "as one day" with God. Abraham says a thousand years on earth is a year to the Lord. Alma says time is measured only to man, not God. Abraham says time is measured ("reckoned") to God, but that His time moves much more slowly than man's.

The New Testament seems more consistent with the Book of Mormon version. See 2 Peter 3:8 --

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

That is, 1 earth day = 1,000 divine years and 1,000 earth years = 1 divine day. But if 1 divine day = 1,000 earth years, 1 earth day can't equal 1,000 divine years. The only way to escape the mathematical impossibility is to understand that to God, all time has the same value, so that 1,000 divine years has the same value as 1 divine day. In other words, time is measured only to man. Abraham got it wrong.

[StrawberryFields]

Bitter farewell to Terri Schiavo

From Jacqui Goddard in Florida

Family complains of husband's 'heartless cruelty' in barring them from bedside

TERRI SCHIAVO’S parents claimed that her husband refused to let them be at her bedside when she died yesterday, as the bitterness that had surrounded her final days showed no sign of abating. Police barred Mrs Schiavo’s family from her room because her husband, her legal guardian, wanted to be there, said Frank Pavone, a priest and family friend.

Father Pavone said: “Bobby Schindler, her brother, said, ‘We want to be in the room when she dies’. Michael Schiavo said ‘No, you cannot’. So his heartless cruelty continues until this very last moment.”

The Schindlers’ advisers said that Schiavo’s brother and sister had been at her bedside a few minutes before the end came,but were not there at the moment of her death because Michael Schiavo would not let them into the room.

“Mr Schiavo’s overriding concern here was to provide for Terri a peaceful death with dignity,” George Felos, the husband's lawyer said. “This death was not for the siblings, and not for the spouse and not for the parents. This was for Terri." Father Pavone, who heads a group called Priests for Life, said: “This is not only a death with all the sadness that brings, this is a killing. We not only grieve that Terri has passed, we grieve that our nation has allowed an atrocity such as this.”

Mrs Schiavo, 41, died in a Florida hospice 13 days after her husband won a 12-year legal battle to have her feeding tube removed, against her parents’ wishes.

Her body was taken to the Pinellas County Medical Examiner’s Office for an autopsy that her husband believes will prove that she was in a permanent vegative state from which recovery was impossible. The case split America and triggered a constitutional showdown between the judiciary and Congress and her death provoked angry reactions.

President Bush, who had sought unsuccessfully to save Mrs Schiavo, said: “The essence of civilisation is that the strong have a duty to protect the weak. In cases where there are serious doubts and questions, the presumption should be in favour of life.”

The Vatican said the circumstances of Mrs Schiavo’s death had “rightly shocked consciences. A life was interrupted.”

Oustide the hospice Christian and pro-life activists wept and offered prayers. Some gathered around makeshift altars, singing hymns. A lone trumpeter played Amazing Grace.

The case that began as a family squabble swelled into a bruising national controversy, with political leaders trapped between pressure to save her from her parents and the pro-life movement, and calls from her husband and the right-to-die lobby to let her go.

In the end, it came down to a wrangle over which branch of government — legislative, judicial or executive — had the right to decide. The judiciary won, despite 11th-hour moves by Congress to pass a Bill supporting her parents’ fight that President Bush signed into law at 1am on March 21.

Mrs Schiavo suffered a lack of oxygen to the brain when she collapsed in her Florida home 15 years ago, apparently as the result of an eating disorder, and was left in a persistent vegetative state.

Most doctors said she would never recover. Michael Schiavo sued for medical malpractice, was awarded $1 million and three months later halted therapy and posted a “do not resuscitate” instruction on his wife’s medical records. He claimed that she had once told him that she would not wish to be kept alive artificially. In 1997, he moved in with a new girlfriend and fathered two children.

The Schindlers never accepted that their daughter could not recover and produced harrowing videotapes that appeared to show her responding to stimuli. They spent 12 years fighting to keep her alive, but after more than 60 court actions, and no fewer than six refusals by the Supreme Court to hear the case, they had no option but to watch her die.

The Schindlers’ lawyer, David Gibbs, said the family were relying on their strong Catholic faith for comfort. “While they are heartsick, their faith in God remains consistent and strong. They are absolutely convinced that God loves Terri more than they do and that while they grieve for Terri, she is at peace with Him.”

The link from above post. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11...1550026,00.html

[StrawberryFields]

Diversity of views on Terri Schiavo case

My heart goes out to Terri and Michael Schiavo and their families. No parent should have to watch a child die; no husband should have so prolonged a period of grief.

I wish the Schindlers and the Schiavos eventual peace, and I hope they can come to the realization that they have one thing in common: their love for Terri. That should be more than enough to allow them another of God's graces -- forgiveness.

ARLENE ROSS, Miami

The only beneficial outcome of the Schiavo issue could be that middle America will see how the emotions of Elián González felt to the Cuban community of South Florida.

JERRY GREEN, Miami

A majority of people in a poll responded that they would not want to live in a vegetative state like Schiavo. I have yet to hear of one poll that finds that the majority wishes to die by starvation like she did. Food and water aren't artificial means of life support.

C. SILVEIRA, Doral

It is unfair to question the principles and the sincerity of Gov. Jeb Bush and Sen. Mel Martinez in their attempts to keep Schiavo alive. It is even more unfair to question Michael Schiavo's motives and sincerity, which have been vindicated and adjudicated in our courts.

It is impossible not to feel empathy toward Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings. But in a country of laws like ours, tragedies like this require that we place our trust in our courts' ability to properly and fairly apply our laws.

JOSE MANUEL PALLI, Coral Gables

I pray that all the lawyers and judges (including our Supreme Court justices) can sleep at night after having murdered (by starvation and dehydration) Terri Schiavo. You wouldn't do that to an animal, but the judges let it happen to this woman. May God have mercy on us all.

GLADYS ALBEAR, Miami

To vilify the Supreme Court over its refusal to consider the Terri Schiavo case is to play into the hands of the religious right. Just because this nation's population is more than 50 percent Christian does not make it a Christian nation.

If you want a theocracy for a government, be forewarned, you will end up with as much restriction on your daily lives as there is in countries like Iran and Cuba.

DAVID WEINSTOCK, Coral Springs

As a critical-care nurse who has worked with acute and chronically brain-injured patients, I was interested in what President Bush had to say about the Terri Schiavo case. This is no rare case. Decisions about whether to prolong life are made by families every day. What is rare is for families to allow such manipulation and grandstanding from so many special-interest groups and politicians.

What does Bush mean by ''a culture of life''? Is he suggesting that we should fight to abolish the law that he signed as governor of Texas that allows Texas hospitals to discontinue life support against the family's wishes? When little Sun Hudson was allowed to die in a Houston hospital, no one in his family supported that decision. But there were no special congressional meetings for him; no public outcry by the president or conservative talk-show hosts. He died quietly; he and his nonwhite family victims of a system of inequality and legislation signed by our compassionate president that allows hospitals to choose profits over the patient's right to self-determination.

If Bush is a man who never changes his mind, then his stand on medically futile life support is already well-established. I conclude that the above quote is just another doublespeak message to Christian fundamentalists.

For the government to make end-of-life decisions for the patient, whether it's the law that Bush signed or Jeb Bush's manipulations, is an attack on the patient's right to choose. As a nurse, I would not try to direct a family's choice in such a matter. I value the freedom we have to choose whether or not our lives should be artificially maintained.

J. STEVEN REESE, R.N., Juneau, Alaska

This whole incident highlights a flaw in our system of checks and balances. If a judge has more power than parents to decide if they can feed their daughter, then he wields too much of it.

JOSEPH BILSTEIN, Surfside

The deep sadness that I feel about the tragic case of Terri Schiavo was momentarily replaced by anger upon reading the political threats issued by Randall Terry, who is described as a spokesperson for the Schindler family. How utterly and completely selfish can it be to hijack the Schindlers' desperate pleas and use the situation to threaten politicians with ``hell to pay''?

Such nasty politics dishonor the love of the parents for their daughter by a man who is using their pain and struggle to shift the limelight onto himself.

MARIA M. BLANCO, Houston, Texas

How ironic is the story of Terri Schiavo. A young woman who starved herself of nutrition was kept alive through force-feeding. The other irony is that the folks demonstrating outside her hospice are usually against stem-cell research, which may one day help incapacitated people. Life is always much stranger than fiction.

INGRID O'BRIEN, Santa Monica, Calif.

Just what did President Bush mean when he said that the Schindler family showed grace and dignity? I saw neither and felt so sad for their daughter. May Terri rest in peace, finally.

GREG MARTIN, Miami

Discussing the Terri Schiavo case with friends in a church group, we couldn't help wondering if this was a right-to-life issue or a right-to-die issue. But we agreed that we were appalled at the number of people who crawled out of the woodwork to use this poor woman and her family's suffering as a steppingstone for their own ego gratification and political ends. It has been a truly despicable spectacle in America, and I'm ashamed.

I hope that somewhere, somehow Terri Schiavo can take comfort in knowing that she has helped millions avoid the same fate by raising awareness of living wills. I hope she can be memorialized in a more-fitting way so her name may be associated with more positive feelings than the current negativity.

CHRIS FAIELLA, Palmetto Bay

It is outrageous that upon the death of Terri Schiavo, Gov. Bush offered his condolences only to her parents and siblings. Conspicuous in its absence was any expression of sympathy to Schiavo's husband, the ugly and obvious implication being an unfounded belief that Michael Schiavo isn't grieving and that he is a villain in this mess.

One would hope that Florida's leader would have the character and decency to magnanimously reach out to all in an effort to heal the deep divisions that those of his ilk have created over the Schiavo matter. His statement of ''compassion,'' however, makes it clear that he wishes to continue the divisiveness and rancor.

Upper Saint Clair, Penn.

We should all have a living will. Here's mine:

If I should be connected to life support, these are my instructions for withdrawal. If a video is made of me, I insist that it not be shown to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, for fear he should make a pseudo-professional, remote diagnosis and declare that I shouldn't be removed from my machine because he predicts that I will shortly be up and doing the River Dance.

If I am in a vegetative state and the governor uses my pitiful situation as a platform to garner religious extremists' support, I wish to be taken to the governor's mansion. Then unplug me and tell the religious busybodies that the governor did it.

If at the time of such a predicament our president should be the current or another of the Bush monarchy, and he is using me to pander to his right-wing constituency, please take me to Osama bin Laden's mansion, unplug me and tell the media that Bin Laden did it.

Perhaps then, some good will come of my tragedy, and the Bush family will redeem itself and hunt down true murderers.

LAURA HARDESTY, Coral Gables

Terri Schiavo's story may set a frightening precedent for how we will proceed with the elderly, the terminally ill and the mentally disabled. There is no shortage in nursing homes of elderly people with feeding tubes who would starve to death if not fed or given water. Will we remove their tubes without their expressed written wishes to do so?

What will we do with the mentally disabled? Like the elderly, they are costly and unproductive. The same could be said about the terminally ill in hospices who just will not die soon enough.

There is a danger here, this amoral preoccupation with aesthetic perfection and the equally detestable tendency to want to put away the burdensome in our society. Are we heading in the direction of legalizing the extermination of those considered unworthy of life?

MATTY CUMBRADO, Miami

Terri's parents and siblings would like to have a Catholic burial, not cremation (both allowed by the Catholic church), and to have her buried in Florida so they can visit her. It is time for Michael Schiavo to allow the Schindlers this last wish as he goes on with his life. May the Schindlers find the peace that only comes with God's company, and may Terri rest in His peace. May the Lord soften Michael's heart.

CARMEN CAMPA, Miami

Think about how horrible it must be to be so in love and married to the person you plan on spending the rest of your life with when this horrible thing happens and takes her away from you. Her body is there, but she is gone.

The easy way out for Michael Schiavo would have been to give over guardianship of his wife to her parents, get divorced and go on with his life. Instead, he consistently fought for what he said were his wife's wishes. It seems, given the long, difficult path he has had to follow, that we should really consider that his intentions were sincere and out of his love for Terri.

Sadly, in the current political climate many people seem to have forgotten how to look deeper at why a simple man continued to fight for his wife's right to die peacefully and instead want to make him out to be the demon. Maybe we need to look a little closer at ourselves and how we have behaved instead.

DEBORAH R. DEL CASTILLO, Miami

A woman bares her breast for one second on television, and we now have scores of new rules and regulations on ''decency.'' A woman dies after 15 years on artificial life support, and now we have the government legislating our relationships with our families and the way we can end our lives.

What is this, legislation by knee-jerk reaction?

MARCELO SALUP, Coral Gables

My husband asked me what treatment I would or would not want if I were ever in Terri Schiavo's condition. My answer to him was, ``If I can smile, please feed me.''

ALISA DE MOYA, Miami

the link to the above post http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/

[StrawberryFields]

Schiavo case widens divide between Congress and courts

- Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, April 2, 2005

House Republican leader Tom DeLay's threat of retaliation -- even impeachment -- against federal judges for failing to do Congress' bidding in the Terri Schiavo case was just the latest manifestation of hostility from Capitol Hill toward the courts. ...

link http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable

If anyone is interested to sign petition to impeach Judge Greer the link is:

http://www.petitiononline.com/

Then click the heading for Greer on right

[StrawberryFields]

Through Every Tragic Event We Are Given

An Opportunity To Rise Above

America has been blessed, even in the tormenting evil that has spread its darkness upon our courts and murdered an innocent woman, we have been blessed. We were bestowed with the gift of an innocent woman whom many of us never had the privilege of meeting and yet she profoundly touched our lives and therein is our blessing.

Today, we witness the worst of our nation and though our courts killed Terri Schindler-Schiavo, they cannot take our blessing from us. Deep within our heart , wiithin our soul, Terri lives and no court can remove that. The darkness cannot murder our resolve to see to fruition that justice will be restored. We witness today the failure of our courts, the failure of our government. What we do not witness nor should we allow ourselves to witness is our own failure to rebuild our courts and restore a moral nation. To fail would be to mar the life, struggle and death of Terri. That we cannot allow.

Our sorrow has brought us to tears. For our nation, we weep and we should weep because the death of Terri Schindler-Schiavo was murder. We weep because a court deprived a family of their daughter –of their sister –of their friend. Their grief is enormous as is their faith as was so evident in their continuous fight to bring her justice, which stands as a lesson for each one of us.

Let us remember Terri not so much as a victim now, but as our guide in our quest to bring our nation to its knees allowing our tears of sorrow to wash away, to cleanse our nation of the perverse and rampant corruption strangling our very core of being Americans. Let our tears today be a show of unity and spirit to one another enjoined in the life of Terri Schindler-Schiavo. Through her, she gave us the mandate to return to a moral and ethical nation -that directive must begin within our courts.

We rightly grieve today and awake tomorrow refreshed in our faith, in our determination that what Terri truly gave us was her will to live, and now that torch of life is ours to carry forward.

Theresa Maria Schindler Schiavo

December 3, 1963 ~ March 31, 2005

http://theempirejournal.com/331051_thank_y...i_schindler.htm

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 2 2005, 09:04 AM

Schiavo case widens divide between Congress and courts

- Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, April 2, 2005

House Republican leader Tom DeLay's threat of retaliation -- even impeachment -- against federal judges for failing to do Congress' bidding in the Terri Schiavo case was just the latest manifestation of hostility from Capitol Hill toward the courts. ...

link http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable

If anyone is interested to sign petition to impeach Judge Greer the link is:

http://www.petitiononline.com/

Then click the heading for Greer on right

I think what was done was the right thing. Did you happen to listen to conference today? Didn't you hear the talk about the little paper boy?

I think it is a lesson some need to learn.

[StrawberryFields]

Yes, I did hear the story about the paper boy and it was very sad. He was just an innocent child, doing his job the best that he could. Maybe he didn't receive the proper training of what it takes to keep the people on his route happy. I can only imagine what this has done to his family, neighbors, and those who know him. I was touched by this story as well.

On the other hand, since you asked, and as you can see from the petitions comments in the link above, Judge Greer is not an innocent young child.

Below is a statement you made in another thread about people protecting their own:

Amillia

Posted: Apr 1 2005, 09:29 AM

Consultant

Group: Members

Posts: 696

Member No.: 8309

Joined: 12-July 04

There is no way of knowing what was in the syringe. Even if my mother had asked, they wouldn't have told her the truth. When I told my brother about it, (he is in medicine) he got really angry that I would "take the dignity away from dad's death by suggesting such a thing"...

They protect their own you know?

--------------------

Sweetthing

Unfortunately, this is what has occurred here and Terri and her family, thus far, have been the one¡Çs paying the price. Well, it is time for that to change and for these people to be held accountable for their choices.

[StrawberryFields]

To start, take a closer look at George P. Felos, Attorney for Michael Schiavo

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:KsZlH...sociation&hl=en

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/bstock/20.../bs_0329p.shtml

[StrawberryFields]

Judge George Greer a conflict of interest?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_greer.htm

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Apr 2 2005, 01:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Apr 2 2005, 01:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 2 2005, 12:48 AM

Since there is one school of religious thinking that holds that God exists outside of time (the Book of Mormon says yes; the Book of Abraham says no), I don't see any great problem with this. I don't think of a day a person spends on earth as a day spent outside of eternity; from an eternal perspective, everything happens simultaneously. So I don't think "Let that poor brain-damaged person get out of that body and into the eternities." The most important part of her spirit is probably already there.

I agree, but could you give me some references in the BofM and Abraham which don't agree, so I can read that for myself?

Dang, you're up late on a Friday night. Give me a minute and I'll get the references.

(a few minutes later)

Alma 40:8 --

"Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men."

Abraham 3:4 --

"And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

To summarize and contrast: Alma says all of time is "as one day" with God. Abraham says a thousand years on earth is a year to the Lord. Alma says time is measured only to man, not God. Abraham says time is measured ("reckoned") to God, but that His time moves much more slowly than man's.

The New Testament seems more consistent with the Book of Mormon version. See 2 Peter 3:8 --

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

That is, 1 earth day = 1,000 divine years and 1,000 earth years = 1 divine day. But if 1 divine day = 1,000 earth years, 1 earth day can't equal 1,000 divine years. The only way to escape the mathematical impossibility is to understand that to God, all time has the same value, so that 1,000 divine years has the same value as 1 divine day. In other words, time is measured only to man. Abraham got it wrong.

What if the statement : time is measured only to man ~

actually means that only man is limited in time ~ (on this earth)?

Wouldn't that reconcile the statements?

BTW ~ thanks for these references! (I am always up late, I have teen agers!)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 3 2005, 08:50 AM

Yes, I did hear the story about the paper boy and it was very sad. He was just an innocent child, doing his job the best that he could. Maybe he didn't receive the proper training of what it takes to keep the people on his route happy. I can only imagine what this has done to his family, neighbors, and those who know him. I was touched by this story as well.

On the other hand, since you asked, and as you can see from the petitions comments in the link above, Judge Greer is not an innocent young child.

Below is a statement you made in another thread about people protecting their own:

Amillia

Posted: Apr 1 2005, 09:29 AM

Consultant

Group: Members

Posts: 696

Member No.: 8309

Joined: 12-July 04

There is no way of knowing what was in the syringe. Even if my mother had asked, they wouldn't have told her the truth. When I told my brother about it, (he is in medicine) he got really angry that I would "take the dignity away from dad's death by suggesting such a thing"...

They protect their own you know?

--------------------

Sweetthing

Unfortunately, this is what has occurred here and Terri and her family, thus far, have been the one¡Çs paying the price. Well, it is time for that to change and for these people to be held accountable for their choices.

My father was able to state he no longer wanted to live ~ and someone complied to his wishes about his life. It wasn't what my mother wanted, nor what I wanted, but that wasn't the case with Terri was it?

It was the parents who gave it into the hands of the judges, by interfering in a husband/wife relationship.

I would hate to have my fil or mil decide what should happen to my husband. It isn't their place anymore. ~ even if they think I am screwing up!

God had given a few statements about marriage ~ and none give the parents the power over either spouse after the marriage.

Matt. 19: 6

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

This next one is so important it is taught many times over:

Gen. 2: 24

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matt. 19: 5

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mark 10: 7

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

Eph. 5: 31

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be aone flesh.

Moses 3: 24

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be done flesh.

Abr. 5: 18

18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

When people over step their place, chaos occurs and that is what has happened when Terri's parents over stepped their place.

[StrawberryFields]

This link is especially disturbing. Terri doesn't appear to be in a PVS at all. She sounds like a disabled daughter trying the only way she can to communicate with her father. To imagine what she could have done IF she has been granted the rehab that she was entitled to. As with some brain injuries and having a trache especially, speech rehab is REQUIRED to be able to eat on your own and speak. Terri was very much alive as you can see from this movie.

http://www.apfn.org/Movies/ConversationWithTerri.wmv

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 3 2005, 09:46 AM

My father was able to state he no longer wanted to live ~ and someone complied to his wishes about his life. It wasn't what my mother wanted, nor what I wanted, but that wasn't the case with Terri was it?

Your right Amillia Terri could not tell anyone her wishes; she was disabled and was not allowed the rehab which the court ruled she was entitled to. Michael convinced the court that she had 50 years of live left and so the granted 750,000. to her rehab. That rehab money was spent on lawyers to see that she should die.

Michael: "money in the bank, I NOW remember that she didn't want to live like this, NOW kill her. ¡ÈA ¡ÈRight to die¡É attorney in place, money, in the bank, judge in back pocket, run with it!" Another problem with Michaels new found memory of Terri¡Çs wishes is that the ONLY ones remembering this were named Shiavo. Does that not send off an alarm to anyone else? The ones to profit from Terri¡Çs death NOW remember her saying this???

Too bad for Michael it took years 7 years before he won her death sentence and much of the money went to his fight to kill her. Yet Michael has another Ace up his sleeve A TV Movie. He will still be able to capitalize of the life and death of a wife he left so many years ago. I won¡Çt be surprised when Michael pulls another Ace; he has been stacking this deck for years.

Does anyone know why the real reason he did not divorce Terri when it was clear he had emotionally left her when he first began shacking up with other women?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 3 2005, 09:46 AM

It was the parents who gave it into the hands of the judges, by interfering in a husband/wife relationship.

I would hate to have my fil or mil decide what should happen to my husband. It isn't their place anymore. ~ even if they think I am screwing up!

God had given a few statements about marriage ~ and none give the parents the power over either spouse after the marriage.

Matt. 19: 6

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

This next one is so important it is taught many times over:

Gen. 2: 24

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matt. 19: 5

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mark 10: 7

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

Eph. 5: 31

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be aone flesh.

Moses 3: 24

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be done flesh.

Abr. 5: 18

18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

When people over step their place, chaos occurs and that is what has happened when Terri's parents over stepped their place.

Perfect! You are defending the sanctity of the marriage with Michael, the adulterer, with scripture?

Has the world become so blinded about what is moral that they can no longer see the things that are wrong? If so, his is a very scary place to be in.