When Did Terri Shiavo Die?

[StrawberryFields]

I think that for many of us this is a huge debate.

Using our knowledge as Christian members (I think that covers most of us), when did Terri die?

Did she die in 1990?

Did she die March 31, 2005?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 07:35 AM

I think that for many of us this is a huge debate.

Using our knowledge as Christian members (I think that covers most of us), when did Terri die?

Did she die in 1990?

Did she die March 31, 2005?

I believe she died when Father in Heaven took her spirit. When that was, only she and the Lord would know. I could guess that it was sometime between 1990 and 2005.

Honestly, we could debate this till the cows come home, but it wouldn't ever come to a difinitive answer. How could we know except the Spirit told us, and since it really isn't our business, the Spirit probably won't tell us.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 1 2005, 08:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 1 2005, 08:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 07:35 AM

I think that for many of us this is a huge debate.

Using our knowledge as Christian members (I think that covers most of us), when did Terri die?

Did she die in 1990?

Did she die March 31, 2005?

I believe she died when Father in Heaven took her spirit. When that was, only she and the Lord would know. I could guess that it was sometime between 1990 and 2005.

Honestly, we could debate this till the cows come home, but it wouldn't ever come to a difinitive answer. How could we know except the Spirit told us, and since it really isn't our business, the Spirit probably won't tell us.

Amillia,

Thank you for your reply.

I believe the same thing that you do about a person dies when Heavenly Father takes their spirit.

I tend to believe that we don't actually die until our hearts stop beating.

You take someone who has a near death experience, and for a time, their spirit leaves their body right?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 1 2005, 09:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 1 2005, 09:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 08:58 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 07:35 AM

I think that for many of us this is a huge debate.

Using our knowledge as Christian members (I think that covers most of us), when did Terri die?

Did she die in 1990?

Did she die March 31, 2005?

I believe she died when Father in Heaven took her spirit. When that was, only she and the Lord would know. I could guess that it was sometime between 1990 and 2005.

Honestly, we could debate this till the cows come home, but it wouldn't ever come to a difinitive answer. How could we know except the Spirit told us, and since it really isn't our business, the Spirit probably won't tell us.

Amillia,

Thank you for your reply.

I believe the same thing that you do about a person dies when Heavenly Father takes their spirit.

I tend to believe that we don't actually die until our hearts stop beating.

You take someone who has a near death experience, and for a time, their spirit leaves their body right?

Yes, but are they dead for real? What about Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead or brought back by the Lord as in NDE?

It really is God's territory isn't it? I think there are some things we just shouldn't have any control over, yet we think we are wise enough to give and take life, even if it isn't real life we are giving.

It is all part of our testing. We are given knowledge, but with all of our getting of this knowledge, are we getting understanding? I really don't think we are doing too well in that catagory.

I think we have to have courage to change what we can, serenity to accept the things we cannot change and wisdom to know the difference. I think wisdom is both knowledge and the use of it to the benefit, not damage, of all people.

However, agency of man, keeps all the world swirling around in some pretty questionable decisions. We all do stupid things, we all make bad decisions, and sometimes we all are fooled into thinking we know better than someone else how it should be done.

But sometimes we can look back upon those times and see that we really didn't know better.

[Guest JRodan]

When will this subject die, REALLY?

Can you say, "obsessive"?

[Amillia]

Well no one is forcing you to open these threads.

[Guest JRodan]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:32 AM

Well no one is forcing you to open these threads.

No? Well, who's forcing you then? (and please don't roll your eyes at me; I may be tempted to call a paramedic)

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:24 AM

What about Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead or brought back by the Lord as in NDE?

I do believe that Lazarus was really dead and it was the Lord who brought him and others back to life.

In the medical community, they pronounce someone dead after their heart stops beating... so they are alive until that point right?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by JRodan+Apr 1 2005, 09:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JRodan @ Apr 1 2005, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:32 AM

Well no one is forcing you to open these threads.

No? Well, who's forcing you then? (and please don't roll your eyes at me; I may be tempted to call a paramedic)

No one is forcing me and I am not the one complaining ~ and go ahead ~ call the paramedics your footing the bill right?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by JRodan+Apr 1 2005, 09:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JRodan @ Apr 1 2005, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:32 AM

Well no one is forcing you to open these threads.

No? Well, who's forcing you then? (and please don't roll your eyes at me; I may be tempted to call a paramedic)

She is right you know.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 1 2005, 09:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 1 2005, 09:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:24 AM

What about Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead or brought back by the Lord as in NDE?

I do believe that Lazarus was really dead and it was the Lord who brought him and others back to life.

In the medical community, they pronounce someone dead after their heart stops beating... so they are alive until that point right?

I don't know if the heart is the pivital link to life or not. My son's spirit left his body while his heart was still pumping. They call it an out of body experience as well.

He floated up to the ceiling of the school and looked down on his body. To those around him, he was just unconscious. So what is death of the body? What about the stories of Alma the elder? He lay as if dead.

What about the stories of those Ammon converted? What is death? Can we really know? I think in Terri's case it was a good thing to stop the farcical mimic of life and allow a complete end to her existence ~ for her, not her husband or parents, but for her anad I think her husband was concerned for her, not himself.

[Guest JRodan]

Here we go...

[Guest JRodan]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:38 AM

No one is forcing me and I am not the one complaining

Are you kidding? You're complaining about me complaining, aren't you?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by JRodan+Apr 1 2005, 09:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JRodan @ Apr 1 2005, 09:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:38 AM

No one is forcing me and I am not the one complaining

Are you kidding? You're complaining about me complaining, aren't you?

I am telling you that you don't have to be here. Is that complaining? LOL

Twisiting things around doesn't get you anywhere but deeper in, so, if you really don't like the discussion, unscrew yourself from the hole you have dug yourself into and boogie!

[Guest JRodan]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 1 2005, 09:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 1 2005, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -JRodan@Apr 1 2005, 09:47 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:38 AM

No one is forcing me and I am not the one complaining

Are you kidding? You're complaining about me complaining, aren't you?

I am telling you that you don't have to be here. Is that complaining? LOL

Twisiting things around doesn't get you anywhere but deeper in, so, if you really don't like the discussion, unscrew yourself from the hole you have dug yourself into and boogie!

Yeah, if you're going to start talking about floating to the ceiling and sane stuff like that, I guess it's high time this stooge took a stage left. See ya in the looney-toons!

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:43 AM

I don't know if the heart is the pivital link to life or not. My son's spirit left his body while his heart was still pumping. They call it an out of body experience as well.

He floated up to the ceiling of the school and looked down on his body. To those around him, he was just unconscious. So what is death of the body? What about the stories of Alma the elder? He lay as if dead.

What about the stories of those Ammon converted? What is death? Can we really know? I think in Terri's case it was a good thing to stop the farcical mimic of life and allow a complete end to her existence ~ for her, not her husband or parents, but for her anad I think her husband was concerned for her, not himself.

Yes, I remember you telling me about that on IM.

My point is that a spirit can leave(for a limited time only) without a person being dead. It is the heartbeat that determines life.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by JRodan@Apr 1 2005, 09:45 AM

Here we go...

Thanks for posting today! I mean it has really been a long time since I have had a good belly laugh from a post on LDS Talk!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 1 2005, 11:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 1 2005, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:43 AM

I don't know if the heart is the pivital link to life or not. My son's spirit left his body while his heart was still pumping. They call it an out of body experience as well.

He floated up to the ceiling of the school and looked down on his body. To those around him, he was just unconscious.  So what is death of the body? What about the stories of Alma the elder? He lay as if dead.

What about the stories of those Ammon converted? What is death? Can we really know? I think in Terri's case it was a good thing to stop the farcical mimic of life and allow a complete end to her existence ~ for her, not her husband or parents, but for her anad I think her husband was concerned for her, not himself.

Yes, I remember you telling me about that on IM.

My point is that a spirit can leave(for a limited time only) without a person being dead. It is the heartbeat that determines life.

I don't know if it can really be considered life if the heart beat contnues ~ when there is no brain activity. God has to decide I guess.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Amillia+Apr 1 2005, 11:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Apr 1 2005, 11:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Apr 1 2005, 11:09 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 1 2005, 09:43 AM

I don't know if the heart is the pivital link to life or not. My son's spirit left his body while his heart was still pumping. They call it an out of body experience as well.

He floated up to the ceiling of the school and looked down on his body. To those around him, he was just unconscious.  So what is death of the body? What about the stories of Alma the elder? He lay as if dead.

What about the stories of those Ammon converted? What is death? Can we really know? I think in Terri's case it was a good thing to stop the farcical mimic of life and allow a complete end to her existence ~ for her, not her husband or parents, but for her anad I think her husband was concerned for her, not himself.

Yes, I remember you telling me about that on IM.

My point is that a spirit can leave(for a limited time only) without a person being dead. It is the heartbeat that determines life.

I don't know if it can really be considered life if the heart beat contnues ~ when there is no brain activity. God has to decide I guess.

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not, so for now let's just place that right here*

If I understand this, if the body or (shell as it has been described) remains alive with a heart beat...but because a brain lacks activity the person is considered dead right? It just doesn't sound right.

To me a people are alive until their spirit leaves their body.

You see I have this belief that our bodies merely house our spirits. We are not our bodies; we are the observer inside of the body.

If you were to say "I am so sorry" and really mean it... try it now, and say it out loud. Did you do anything when your hands? If it didn't work this time, try it again when you express something sincere and meaningful. When I do this I usually put my hand close to my heart. It is an instinct and I believe that we do this because first, it is our heart felt words, and second because that is where the observer is. It is the observer who controls our brains and our brains control our bodies.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not

No, it's not. She did have some brain activity. If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period. Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going. It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

If Terri Schiavo truly had "no brain activity," she would have had to be on a heart-lung machine, wouldn't have responded to stimuli, couldn't have opened and closed her eyes, and couldn't have made noise.

Now, it does look like she had little or no higher brain activity, as her cerebral cortex, where the higher brain functions associated with consciousness are mostly operate, was pretty much shot.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 05:13 PM

No, it's not. She did have some brain activity. If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period. Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going. It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

If Terri Schiavo truly had "no brain activity," she would have had to be on a heart-lung machine, wouldn't have responded to stimuli, couldn't have opened and closed her eyes, and couldn't have made noise.

Now, it does look like she had little or no higher brain activity, as her cerebral cortex, where the higher brain functions associated with consciousness are mostly operate, was pretty much shot.

Exactly.

And, she had a flat EEG, showing total lack of cortical activity.

A flat EEG. even in the presence of brainstem activity, breathing and heartbeat is generally what is considered to be the definition of clinical death.

Terri, the person, died in 1990, hope lingered longer than the 12 months after which a PVS patient has essentially zero chance of recovery.

I WISH I could say I believed Terri's spirit had left her body at the time it "died"; at the time of the cardiac incident that sent her into a coma, and then into the PVS. But, the one thing that sickens me the most about the whole ghoulish busiiness of going to all ends to keep her alive is the thought of her soul, her eternal spirit, somehow trapped in that ghastly shell all those years.

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 03:13 PM

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not

No, it's not. She did have some brain activity. If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period. Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going. It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

I would have to dispute that.

Think about those that watch TBN or are Benny Hinn fans.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 1 2005, 05:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 1 2005, 05:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 03:13 PM

I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not

No, it's not. She did have some brain activity. If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period. Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going. It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

I would have to dispute that.

Think about those that watch TBN or are Benny Hinn fans.

I think those guys must, if nothing else, have functioning brain stems. Although it is hard to believe. B)

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Idacat+Apr 1 2005, 05:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Idacat @ Apr 1 2005, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 05:13 PM

No, it's not.  She did have some brain activity.  If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period.  Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going.  It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

If Terri Schiavo truly had "no brain activity," she would have had to be on a heart-lung machine, wouldn't have responded to stimuli, couldn't have opened and closed her eyes, and couldn't have made noise.

Now, it does look like she had little or no higher brain activity, as her cerebral cortex, where the higher brain functions associated with consciousness are mostly operate, was pretty much shot.

Exactly.

And, she had a flat EEG, showing total lack of cortical activity.

A flat EEG. even in the presence of brainstem activity, breathing and heartbeat is generally what is considered to be the definition of clinical death.

Terri, the person, died in 1990, hope lingered longer than the 12 months after which a PVS patient has essentially zero chance of recovery.

I WISH I could say I believed Terri's spirit had left her body at the time it "died"; at the time of the cardiac incident that sent her into a coma, and then into the PVS. But, the one thing that sickens me the most about the whole ghoulish busiiness of going to all ends to keep her alive is the thought of her soul, her eternal spirit, somehow trapped in that ghastly shell all those years.

Dr. Cranford, the doctor retained by Michael Schiavo to examine Terri Schiavo, said on a CNN interview that Terri "had a flat EEG." People on the pull-the-tube side took that and ran with it, concluding that Terri was "brain dead."

Right after Dr. Cranford said Terri had "a flat EEG", Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's medical corresponent, remarked:

"Dr. Gupta: He said that and I was a little surprised that he said that. I mean that is a very clinical thing when you say someone's EEG is flat that means they are brain dead. That's a really important term for transplant surgeons before they take someone's organs. Terri is not brain dead. I think just about anybody that looks at her can tell that. What exact state she is in. I don't know. I've never examined her but the video along shows that she is not brain dead."

That made me go "hm", as it's been my understanding that a totally flat EEG means a person is totally brain dead, with no electrical activity at all. That couldn't be the case with Terri -- the autonomic reflexes keeping her breathing going and her heart beating alone would cause some electrical activity to show up.

So I went searching for some more facts. Apparently Dr. Cranford was partially right. One EEG, limited to the cerebral cortex, was flat, or nearly so. (I haven't been able to find out for sure, and I'm not a radiologist anyway so I wouldn't know how flat "flat" is.) Another one -- I assume for the brain stem, or from the small part of her cortex that remains -- showed activity.

I don't think Dr. Cranford was accidentally imprecise in his language. He is a retained expert in a legal proceeding. Wanna guess how often retained experts in litigation give opinions counter to the interests of the litigants who hire them?

I think Dr. Cranford intentionally sought to give the impression that Terri was brain dead, or clinically dead. That is simply not the case. She was diagnosed as PVS, meaning that her higher brain functions were shot. That is different from brain death, and I wish the tube-pullers would keep that straight. I mean, if they're going to be posturing as lovers of reason and science as opposed to those awful benighted Christers on the other side, they need not to fudge on the facts.

A flat EEG. even in the presence of brainstem activity, breathing and heartbeat is generally what is considered to be the definition of clinical death.

I would be extremely surprised if that were the case. Please provide a citation for that statement from a legitimate scholarly source. I'm the only one allowed to be a know-it-all around here.

Here's the relevant part of a definition from a medical dictionary:

"The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1980 formulated the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards." This definition was approved by the American Medical Association in 1980 and by the American Bar Association in 1981."

QED. Terri Schiavo had independent respiration, and a functioning brain stem. Legally and medically, she wasn't dead until she was dehydrated.

Whether her spirit remained in her body is a subject for the theologians, none of whom frankly have any real basis for their opinions and therefore whose speculations are entitled to no more weight than any of ours. I say no.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Apr 1 2005, 07:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Apr 1 2005, 07:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Idacat@Apr 1 2005, 05:37 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 1 2005, 05:13 PM

No, it's not.  She did have some brain activity.  If a person has a heartbeat that continues by itself, there is brain activity, period.  Specifically, the autonomic system, operating from the brain stem, is the only thing that keeps the heartbeat and breathing going.  It's impossible for a person with no brain activity to have an independent heartbeat.

If Terri Schiavo truly had "no brain activity," she would have had to be on a heart-lung machine, wouldn't have responded to stimuli, couldn't have opened and closed her eyes, and couldn't have made noise.

Now, it does look like she had little or no higher brain activity, as her cerebral cortex, where the higher brain functions associated with consciousness are mostly operate, was pretty much shot.

Exactly.

And, she had a flat EEG, showing total lack of cortical activity.

A flat EEG. even in the presence of brainstem activity, breathing and heartbeat is generally what is considered to be the definition of clinical death.

Terri, the person, died in 1990, hope lingered longer than the 12 months after which a PVS patient has essentially zero chance of recovery.

I WISH I could say I believed Terri's spirit had left her body at the time it "died"; at the time of the cardiac incident that sent her into a coma, and then into the PVS. But, the one thing that sickens me the most about the whole ghoulish busiiness of going to all ends to keep her alive is the thought of her soul, her eternal spirit, somehow trapped in that ghastly shell all those years.

Dr. Cranford, the doctor retained by Michael Schiavo to examine Terri Schiavo, said on a CNN interview that Terri "had a flat EEG." People on the pull-the-tube side took that and ran with it, concluding that Terri was "brain dead."

Right after Dr. Cranford said Terri had "a flat EEG", Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's medical corresponent, remarked:

"Dr. Gupta: He said that and I was a little surprised that he said that. I mean that is a very clinical thing when you say someone's EEG is flat that means they are brain dead. That's a really important term for transplant surgeons before they take someone's organs. Terri is not brain dead. I think just about anybody that looks at her can tell that. What exact state she is in. I don't know. I've never examined her but the video along shows that she is not brain dead."

That made me go "hm", as it's been my understanding that a totally flat EEG means a person is totally brain dead, with no electrical activity at all. That couldn't be the case with Terri -- the autonomic reflexes keeping her breathing going and her heart beating alone would cause some electrical activity to show up.

So I went searching for some more facts. Apparently Dr. Cranford was partially right. One EEG, limited to the cerebral cortex, was flat, or nearly so. (I haven't been able to find out for sure, and I'm not a radiologist anyway so I wouldn't know how flat "flat" is.) Another one -- I assume for the brain stem, or from the small part of her cortex that remains -- showed activity.

I don't think Dr. Cranford was accidentally imprecise in his language. He is a retained expert in a legal proceeding. Wanna guess how often retained experts in litigation give opinions counter to the interests of the litigants who hire them?

I think Dr. Cranford intentionally sought to give the impression that Terri was brain dead, or clinically dead. That is simply not the case. She was diagnosed as PVS, meaning that her higher brain functions were shot. That is different from brain death, and I wish the tube-pullers would keep that straight. I mean, if they're going to be posturing as lovers of reason and science as opposed to those awful benighted Christers on the other side, they need not to fudge on the facts.

A flat EEG. even in the presence of brainstem activity, breathing and heartbeat is generally what is considered to be the definition of clinical death.

I would be extremely surprised if that were the case. Please provide a citation for that statement from a legitimate scholarly source. I'm the only one allowed to be a know-it-all around here.

Here's the relevant part of a definition from a medical dictionary:

"The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1980 formulated the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards." This definition was approved by the American Medical Association in 1980 and by the American Bar Association in 1981."

QED. Terri Schiavo had independent respiration, and a functioning brain stem. Legally and medically, she wasn't dead until she was dehydrated.

Whether her spirit remained in her body is a subject for the theologians, none of whom frankly have any real basis for their opinions and therefore whose speculations are entitled to no more weight than any of ours. I say no.

Interesting post PD

Still very sad.