Some questions.

[Lost_one]

I think this is in the correct place.

1.In the book of Revalations, it talks about a group of beings called Elders. They sound like they are sitting on chairs/throwns around the throwns of the Godhead. Do we know who these Elder are?

2.What is the differance between Angels and Arch-Angels and do we know how many there are of each?

3. Again, in the book of Revalations, the writer discribes heaven or more to the point, the court of heaven. Has anyone ever tried to recreate this vision in art or on computer? Also Jesus is discribed as being very differant looking to what we believe his earthly form looked like, has this ever been done in art?

Im hoping you have understood me enough to answer.

Thanks

[RipplecutBuddha]

Excellent questions...I'll try my best.

1. We don't know specifically who these elders are (or will be...whichever is the case), at least I haven't heard any official declaration from the church about it, but we do know they are twelve of the Apostles. Whether they are the twelve apostles Jesus called in his life, or some other group such as the twelve called among the Nephites I can't say for sure.

2. Arc-angels seem to have a position of authority over angels in general. Remember that the word angel denotes a messenger, or someone sent to carry out a task assigned from higher up. Michael, the Arc-angel led the fight against Satan in the initial moments of the war in heaven, so it would be rational to conclude that he led the rest of us in that fight. Knowing that God has told us that heaven is a place of order helps me in this issue.

3. I don't know of any artwork that has attempted to portray this vision, but I think it would be interesting to see. As to Jesus' glorified appearance, I again don't know of any works of art that come to mind, but again I think it would be interesting to see. More to the point, I don't think either of these present a clear enough picture to lend themselves to artwork. For instance, Lehi's dream presented a very clear and concise picture in the mind that most people can easily grasp. The visions you mention, I believe, are filled much more with interprative commentary that makes rendering them visually much more complex.

[Hemidakota]

I think this is in the correct place.

1.In the book of Revalations, it talks about a group of beings called Elders. They sound like they are sitting on chairs/throwns around the throwns of the Godhead. Do we know who these Elder are?

2.What is the differance between Angels and Arch-Angels and do we know how many there are of each?

3. Again, in the book of Revalations, the writer discribes heaven or more to the point, the court of heaven. Has anyone ever tried to recreate this vision in art or on computer? Also Jesus is discribed as being very differant looking to what we believe his earthly form looked like, has this ever been done in art?

Im hoping you have understood me enough to answer.

Thanks

List the verses.

[Lost_one]

Rev 1:12-16

Rev 4:10

I cant find the discription of heaven just now, But its very colourful, every wall is a differant colour and jewel like.

[Hemidakota]

The first one is reference for the Seven Candlesticks. Are you referring to the 24-elders?

[Hemidakota]

Rev 4:4. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

In these verses John rounds out his vision. Surrounding the central point of light stands another circle, not vertical like the rainbow, but horizontal. It is composed of twenty-four seats, or more accurately, thrones. Upon these sit, in majesty of their own, Elders.

The title John gives them (Greek presbuteros,used to designate prominent political and religious leaders) suggests that while mortal they had been men of importance, probably leaders within the congregations. They "had been faithful in the work of the ministry and were dead; [they] belonged to the seven churches, and were then in the paradise of God" (D&C 77:5). Actually the men may have yet been alive as John wrote for what John saw was their future state. 11 These men won the promise God holds out for all: "He will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion. And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things" (D&C 78:21-22).

The number and dress of the Elders suggests that John used them to represent the final reward of all the faithful. The number twelve represents priesthood. Here its multiple is used to suggest fullness. There were twenty-four priestly courses and Levitical orders among the Jews, whose heads were also called Elders (see 1 Chr. 24:7-18; 25:9-31). According to Hailey, "the number twenty-four suggests a combination of the twelve patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles, thus representing the redeemed of both covenants now united through Christ."

The Patriarchs and Apostles are later linked in the description of the New Jerusalem (see Rev. 21:12, 14), where the names of the apostles are placed on the foundation stones and the names of the patriarchs are inscribed over the gates. Further, there is a certain homogeneity depicted between the Old and the New Covenant for the redeemed sing the song of Moses and the Lamb (see Rev. 15:3). In John's vision the Elders hold the two patriarchal offices of priest and king. Their white garments represent priestly holiness and their golden crowns and thrones royalty. That they represent all the faithful seems apparent from Revelation 20:6, where those who come forth in the first resurrection are kings and priests.

Out of the throne around which the the Elders sat "proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices" (v. 5, KJV). In his attempt to capture the power of the rays and currents that flowed from the throne, John adopted the imagery of a great storm. The word translated "voices" (Greek phn)in the KJV could well be translated as sounds, tones, or noises. These mighty phenomena symbolize divine power, majesty, and glory that almost overwhelm the beholder. Lightning, thunder, and noises also combine to give another aspect of the authority of God. To Sinai, Jehovah had come in the midst of thunders and lightnings and with the voice of the trump (see Ex. 19:16-19). Thus, they manifest the presence of God. But on later occasions when he manifested himself in this manner, it was in judgment against his enemies (see Rev. 8:5; 11:19; 16:18; Ps. 18:13-14; 144:6). Though God is a God of mercy, he is also a God of judgment. Only when justice is satisfied can mercy claim her own (see Alma 42:22-25).

Associated with these powers, John sees "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven servants of God" (JST, v. 5), imagery and wording that echo Ezekiel 1:13 and Zechariah 4:2. Here again we meet, symbolically, the seven men who presided over the churches. John depicts them as lamps burning before the throne of God, acting, it would appear, as God's witnesses in judgment upon the unfaithful portion of the church

But the burning lamp stands are not the only things near the throne. John saw before it a sea of glass like crystal, perhaps similar to the "molten sea" or brass basin in Solomon's temple (cf. v. 6 and 1 Kgs. 7:23-26). The adjective glass-like (Greek hualinos) suggests the idea of clear, calm, shimmering. Crystal had a long association with glory and fire (see Ex. 24:9-10, 17; Ezek. 1:22, 27). The two symbols are allied but not quite the same. Glass is a manufactured product while crystal grows in nature. Thus the "glass" of the sea suggests a produced state of purity, and the "crystal," what is native in God's holy nature. The word sea (Hebrew ya'm) referred to both thefresh-water ocean, the source of all life and fertility according to tradition, and to a basin of holy water in the temple. Thus the sea of glass becomes a perfect symbol for this earth "in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state" (D&C 77:1). In that state it will be one of the celestial orbs, a source of the power of life for worlds and a retainer of holiness. [Opening the Seven Seals: The Visions of John the Revelator by Richard Draper]

[Hemidakota]

REV 4:10. The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Chapter four concludes in a tremendous symphony of worship and praise to God. The Seer declares that the living creatures never cease to extol God (v. 8) and then states that, "whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to him who sits on the throne, . . . the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him" (vv. 9-10, AT). The idea is that all beings in heaven worship God constantly. The Elders reverence their Creator by casting their crowns before him. In this way they acknowledge that their authority is delegated from God. The act of casting the crowns before the throne of God symbolizes the full devotion of the Elders to the law of consecration and stewardship. They act as stewards over their domain but consecrate all back to him.

For a discussion of this law, see Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973), 223-59.

[Hemidakota]

Cherubim Seraphim and Angels

Question: "I am somewhat confused in regard to the difference between cherubim and seraphim and angels, as recorded in the Bible. Who and what are the cherubim and seraphim mentioned in the Old Testament?"

Answer: These are terms that are sometimes applied to angels. The Lord set cherubim, according to the Hebrew Ha-Kerubim, to guard the way to the tree of life, when Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden of Eden. There is no doubt that these were heavenly beings, or angels, as the plural form is used. However, down through the years this has been a mystery. Dr. Adam Clark in his Commentary says in speaking of the cherubim:

But what are these? They are utterly unknown, conjectures and guessers relative to their nature and properties are endless. What these were we cannot distinctly say, it is generally supposed, that a cherub was a creature with four heads and one body; and the animals of which these emblematical forms consisted were the noblest of their kind. The lion among the wild beasts; the bull, among the tame; the eagle, among the birds and man at the head of all.

According to dictionary definitions which have come to us through the ages of apostasy, there is a prevailing notion that angels are superior beings to human beings. A seraph is an angel of the highest order and cherub denotes "(1) a beautiful child or infant, one of the order of angelic beings ranking second to the seraphim in the celestial hierarchy, and held to excel in knowledge. The archangel holds highest rank."

The simple truth gathered from modern revelation is that these beings that guarded the way to the tree of life were angels. Evidently faithful personages belonging to this world who had not, at the time, received the privilege of partaking of mortality, for the Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that "there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong to it." (D. & C. l30:5.)

Cherubim As Symbolic Figures

The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant were placed there as symbolic figures, representing guardians, whose wings protected the altar. These, like the figures seen by Ezekiel, were symbolic, not necessarily living beings, and by them the Lord was teaching Ezekiel a lesson in relation to his mission to Israel. The same is true in relation to the several beasts seen by the Revelator John. All of these visions by symbolic representation had something to do with history which the Lord was revealing, the full meaning of which has not been made clear to our understanding.

Just when the notion arose that angels have wings may not be very clear. There is a prevailing idea today, which arose during the centuries of apostasy, that angels are superior to human beings in their nature-in fact, that they belong to an entirely distinct and different race. Angels are ministering servants who carry messages from our Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ. All angels coming to Adam after the fall were spirits belonging to this earth who had not yet obtained bodies of flesh and bones. After men had been translated as was Enoch, they, as translated beings, could and did come to minister unto the prophets. Thus it could have been a translated being who was sent to Jacob and with whom he wrestled. That he wrestled with the Lord is an untenable notion. (See Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 1, pp. 163-168.)

Speaking of angels, the Prophet Joseph Smith has revealed the following:

There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones-

For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.

Secondly: The spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. (D. & C. 129:1-3.)

[Hemidakota]

Captain of the Lord's Host

1. Christ himself is the chief soldier in his own army; as Commander, he carries the title captain of the Lord's Host. By this name he appeared to Joshua, who seeing "him with his sword drawn in his hand," and hearing him say, "As captain of the host of the Lord am I now come, . . . Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, what saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy." (Josh. 5:13-15.) What further direction was then given has not been preserved for us.

It is profitable to compare this appearance of our Lord to Joshua with his appearance to Moses in the burning bush at which time the ground also was hallowed by the personal presence of Deity (Ex. 3) and also to compare it with the ministry of the angel whom John attempted to worship but was restrained with the command: "See thou do it not: worship God." (Rev. 19:9-11.) Among righteous messengers from the spirit realms, none but Deity will accept worship from mortals, and none but the Lord himself hallows a spot so that mortals are commanded to remove their shoes.

Although not in those words so named in the scriptures, Michael or Adam may also properly be designated, captain of the Lord's Host, for he, under Christ, led the armies of heaven when Lucifer rebelled (Rev. 12:7-9), and he, under Christ, will again lead the hosts of heaven in "the battle of the great God," when Lucifer and his hosts are cast out eternally. (D. & C. 88:111-116.)

Mormon Doctrine (B. McConkie)

Edited June 9, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Archangels

An archangel is a chief angel. Michael (Adam) is the only one so designated in the scriptures proper. (D. & C. 29:26; 88:112; 107:54; 128:21; 1 Thess. 4:16; Jude 9) And certainly he is the chief of all angels, the head (under Christ) of the heavenly hierarchy.

The Hebrew celestial hierarchy, however, is said to consist of seven archangels. The names of two of these, Michael and Gabriel, are found in the Bible and in latter-day revelation. (Jude 9; Luke 1:5-38; D. & C. 128:21.) The name of a third, Raphael, is found in the apocryphal book of Tobias and in the Doctrine and Covenants. (Tob. 12: 15; D. & C. 128:21.) The names of the other four - Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and Jerahmeel - are found in the so-called Book of Enoch, a noncanonical apocalyptic work. (Enoch 21.) Apocryphal sources give the names of the last three as Izidkiel, Hanael, and Kepharel.

In reality, we know very little about the organization that exists among angelic beings; that a perfect, proper, and complex organization does exist is obvious, but the positions held by the various ministers in that celestial hierarchy have not been revealed in our day.

Mormon Doctrine (B. McConkie)

Edited June 9, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Angels

God's messengers, those individuals whom he sends (often from his personal presence in the eternal worlds), to deliver his messages (Luke 1:11-38); to minister to his children (Acts 10:1-8, 30-32); to teach them the doctrines of salvation (Mosiah 3); to call them to repentance (Moro. 7:31); to give them priesthood and keys (D. & C. 13; 128:20-21); to save them in perilous circumstances (1 Ne. 3:29-31; Dan. 6:22); to guide them in the performance of his work (Gen. 24: 7); to gather his elect in the last days (Matt. 24:31); to perform all needful things relative to his work (Moro. 7:29-33) - such messengers are called angels.

These messengers, agents, angels of the Almighty, are chosen from among his offspring and are themselves pressing forward along the course of progression and salvation, all in their respective spheres. The following types of beings serve the Lord as angels:

1. Pre-existent Spirits. - Before men were first placed on this earth, there was war in heaven. "Michael and his angel fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels." (Rev. 12:7.) All the angels here involved were the spirit children of the Father. The angel who appeared to Adam, the first man, and asked him why he was offering sacrifices apparently was one of these spirits from pre-existence (Moses 5:6-8), for no angels minister to this earth except those who belong to it (D. & C. 130:5), and up to that time no one had been either translated or resurrected.

2. Translated Beings. - Many righteous Persons in the early days of the earth's history were translated. (Inspired Version, Gen. 14:26-36.) Enoch and the whole city of Zion were among these. (Moses 7:18-69.) These translated Personages became "ministering angels unto many planets." (Teachings, p. 170.) Many of the angels who ministered to righteous men anciently, without question, were translated beings. The Three Nephites, after their translation, became "as the angels of God" (3 Ne. 28:30), and have continued to minister and appear unto mortal men from time to time. John the Revelator ministered as a translated being to the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery in connection with the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. (D. & C. 7; 27:12-13.) It could well be that Paul had translated beings in mind when he said that "some have entertained angels unawares." (Heb. 13:2.)

3. Spirits Of Just Men Made Perfect. - Part of the "innumerable company of angels" in "the heavenly place" are the "spirits of just men made perfect." (D. & C. 76:66-69; Heb. 12:22-24) These are the spirits of men who have worked out their salvation, but are awaiting the day of the resurrection. (D. & C. 129.)

4. Resurrected Personages. - Many instances of ministration by resurrected angels have occurred since the coming forth of our Lord from the tomb. (Matt. 27:52-53; Hela. 14:25.) These angels, having bodies of flesh and bones (D. & C. 129), have played an indispensable part in the restoration of the gospel. Peter, James (D. & C. 27:12-13; 128: 20), John the Baptist (D. & C. 13), Moroni, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael (D. & C. 128:20-21), Moses, Elijah, and Elias (D. & C. 110:11-16; 133: 54-55) all came to earth as resurrected personages to confer their keys, powers, and authorities again upon men. Moses and Elijah, who the first instance had been translated, "were with Christ in his resurrection." (D. & C. 133:55.)

It is of these angels, and others of like righteousness, that the revelation says: "Then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him" (D. & C. 88:107), meaning that these worthy saints and angels shall receive exaltation. They shall be gods. But those angels who did not abide in the fulness of the gospel law shall, after their resurrection, continue as "angels of God forever and ever." Such group shall be "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." (D. & C. 132:16-17.)

5. Righteous Mortal Men. - Even certain righteous mortal men are called angels in the revelations. The King James version gives an account of "two angels" rescuing Lot from Sodom. In the account these angels are called "men" and the wicked inhabitants of Sodom so considered them. (Gen. 19.) The Inspired version tells us that actually there were "three angels," and that these "angels of God" in reality "were holy men." (Inspired Version, Gen. 19.)

Also in the King James version, the Lord is quoted as saying such things as, "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write" (Rev. 2:1) such and such, meaning that the message should be written to the bishop or presiding elder, such individual being designated as an angel. (Rev. 2:8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14.) In the Inspired version this rather unusual usage of the name angel is changed so that the quotation reads, "Unto the servant of the church of Ephesus write." (Inspired Version, Rev. 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14.) This inspired rendition more accurately accords with the manner in which we ordinarily use words today.

Mormon Doctrine (B. McConkie)

[Hemidakota]

Again, in the book of Revelations, the writer describes heaven or more to the point, the court of heaven. Has anyone ever tried to recreate this vision in art or on computer? Also Jesus is described as being very differant looking to what we believe his earthly form looked like, has this ever been done in art?

As John turned, he saw a figure resplendent in glory standing in the midst of seven lamp stands. The latter image recalls the menorah, the seven-branched lamp stand of the temple (see Ex. 25:31-37; Zech. 4:2). Here, however, each lamp has its own base. Even so, the figure of the temple cannot be far off, for Solomon placed ten separate lamp stands in the Holy of Holies during the temple dedication (see 1 Kgs. 7:49). Tying the vision even closer to the temple was the figure's dress. The words John used to describe the robe are the same as those in the Septuagint for the costume of the high priest (see Ex. 28:4; 29:5; Dan. 10:5). This is combined with the symbol of royal office: the golden girdle or clasp worn just under the armpits. 21 Thus, John seems to present the Savior as both high priest and king, offices associated with the temple and the fullness of priesthood (see D&C 124:28).

John describes the glorious figure as "like unto a Son of man" (v. 13, KJV). The phrase "son of man" is found in all the Standard Works usually referring to the Savior, though the Old Testament (see Num. 23:19; Ps. 8:4; Isa. 51:12) uses it primarily to distinguish mortals from Gods, especially when the context is one of judgment. The term emphasizes the anthropomorphic nature of deity. But Moses 6:57 suggests that John may have had in mind a higher meaning. There the name is capitalized "Son of Man," showing that it is a proper name or title. According that passage, "in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness" is the name of God, "and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge." Therefore, the name designates he who is the Son of the Man of Holiness....

REV 4:1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

...John's experience perhaps would have been similar to that of Joseph Smith, who reported, "The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire" (D&C 137:1-2). The purpose for John's elevation was for perspective. From this post he could better see "things which must be hereafter."

Opening the Seven Seals: The Visions of John the Revelator by Richard D. Draper

[Lost_one]

Hemidakota: Wow, Thank you so much for all that effort. I have read through all the posts and although I understood most of what you have said. I will have to go through each post again, more slowly. I really dont want to miss anything. The Book of Revalations is my absolute favourite book. I just love how it is written. I may not always understand the symbolism, But the imagery brought to mind by it is epic.