Believing Christ

[Dr T]

I think this IS where the LDS perspective departs because we believe we are not saved IN our sinful state, but FROM our sins.

Thanks 1/2ers. What do u mean by "not saved in our sinful state but from our sins."?

...after we prove ourselves worthy of the gift by becoming humble like a child and willing to give away our sins.

Meaning what? What do u mean by giving away our sins? Do you mean like, never doing that again? Would you say that you believe that we can be without sin ever again?

I can't actually get rid of the stain, but I can be humble enough to present myself as contrite. But if I do repent and Christ does change me, then aren't I absolutely worthy?

I have no problem with contrition. But I see us all as sinful, not able to keep the law, it points out how lacking we actually are am again thankful for what Christ did. Only a perfect, pure and sacrafice, which Jesus was could cover our sins and provide what is needed to God the Father (again not us). I repent also and turn and am growing day by day. I will never be perfect here on earth but can live with God only because of what Jesus did. For me it just comes back again and again to Him and not me with respect to salvation. Nothing I added or nothing I could do can make me more saved than I am now. I look forward to growing and becoming more Christ-like but know I can do my best even though that does not make me more or less accepted by Him because it is a gift. :)

[Dr T]

There was no thank you button when I typed this post. Thank you. It looks like we cross posted maybe.

But faith DOES bring results....so in that regard it is very much a cause/effect thing.

I'd agree that faith does bring results, we can grow in that way, get better and better at leaning to turn away from sin but like I said above, the Father requires perfection and since we've all sinned then we are unable to be sinless unless Christ was to cover us and forgive us for all sins.

And for the LDS, one can't expect salvation on belief alone. If I am not acting properly in my life, then I am under condemnation and in sin.

I'd agree that we ought not just sin and say, "Well we are covered for it" because I don't think that's true Christianity. We do not sin more so grace can abound more.

And thru the process of obedience, the miracle of Christ happens because we are changed spiritually to become more like Him. We don't have to be sinful anymore.

Yes, becoming more like Him is what I want too! :) You said, "We don't have to be sinful anymore." Is that to say that you Misshalfway do not sin anymore? I know you said we have to repent why would we need to repent if we are able to sin no more? I'm not trying to be nit picky but I'm really trying to see what you're saying. Thank you half-Z's

[Misshalfway]

What do u mean by "not saved in our sinful state but from our sins."?

Well, if I am saved in my sins then I am still unclean. If I am saved from my sins, then I am literally cleansed and changed from something corrupt to something whole, something sanctified/purified. This is the baptism of fire. Just like fire would purify the tip of a needle. Jesus is perfectly spiritually clean and it is his power that makes us clean too so that we can enter back into the presence of the Father and live the eternities in joy. So, in this way we literally become like Jesus. Do we clean ourselves thru good works? Absolutely not. But we cannot be cleaned without surrendering our will to his. Our will is the ONLY thing we can and must give to the process.

Meaning what? What do u mean by giving away our sins? Do you mean like, never doing that again? Would you say that you believe that we can be without sin ever again?

Yes. I mean never do that again. If I lie....repentance means I commit never to lie again. Does that mean that I will never lie again? Maybe maybe not. If my nature is changed, then I won't lie again. If I still have work to do on that skill, then maybe I need to repent over and over before that thing in me is finally conquered. But I can't call myself "saved" if I say I believe on way but my lead my life another. I believe that would be hypocrisy.

But I see us all as sinful

We do too. Being worthy and being perfect are two very different ideas. We won't be perfect ever in this life. BUT....we can be made clean and we can live in obedience. I may not be perfect, but I do live a moral life. I don't sleep with people who aren't my husband. That is easy for me. In that thing, I am worthy because I keep the law. Make sense? Living the law doesn't "save" me. Christ does. Obedience puts me in a position where Christ CAN save me. He won't save me in any other condition.

Nothing I added or nothing I could do can make me more saved than I am now. I look forward to growing and becoming more Christ-like but know I can do my best even though that does not make me more or less accepted by Him because it is a gift.

This is perhaps where I may part with you. There is more I can do. I can examine my life. I can take responsibility for my sinful choices. I can seek Jesus and petition him for forgiveness and mercy. I can pray. I can exercise faith. All these things DO make me more sancitfied because they invite the Lord's power into my life. Becoming more Christlike does mean something with regards to salvation because with more sanctification comes greater blessings -- blessings in this life and blessings in the hereafter.

We can't become perfect on our own. We could be obedient all day and never achieve any salvation. And even after Christ has made us clean, we still may walk in sin again. But I can be perfect IN CHRIST. And every time I sin, I can go to Him and become clean again.

We as LDS people don't say we are saved yet because we feel a decision like that can only be made after God has seen the course of our entire lives and can judge us on all we did, knew and had to work with. But we do live in a state of reassurance and hope that our afterlife will be with God.

[Misshalfway]

There was no thank you button when I typed this post. Thank you. It looks like we cross posted maybe.

I'd agree that faith does bring results, we can grow in that way, get better and better at leaning to turn away from sin but like I said above, the Father requires perfection and since we've all sinned then we are unable to be sinless unless Christ was to cover us and forgive us for all sins.

I'd agree that we ought not just sin and say, "Well we are covered for it" because I don't think that's true Christianity. We do not sin more so grace can abound more.

Yes, becoming more like Him is what I want too! :) You said, "We don't have to be sinful anymore." Is that to say that you Misshalfway do not sin anymore? I know you said we have to repent why would we need to repent if we are able to sin no more? I'm not trying to be nit picky but I'm really trying to see what you're saying. Thank you half-Z's

I love talking to you, T. You are like easy listening music. :)

No, that doesn't mean I won't sin anymore. That is why mormon people won't say they are saved because they know they will fail at some time and need to repent again. I am not saying that Christ changes us into him in one moment. He doesn't do that. But Christ has promised us that he will forgive us and cleanse us thru repentance and that he will make us more like him thru obedience. It is all a big giant life long process. No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven. What I mean when I say saved "from" our sins is that we must be made clean first. God doesn't require the perfection to enter the kingdom of heaven. If he did, then we all would be completely concentrated on works and Christ wouldn't have a job to do.

Again....works don't earn me anything. I do them because the Lord requires it. And because he requires works, they are essential to the process of becoming saved.

It is like building a house. I don't always have to rebuild the house every time I sin. I build the house.....and then I must work to keep it clean ( thru the atonement) while working on expanding the master suite ( with God as my architect). :)

Edited June 27, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Dr T]

Good thought 1/2y. I like that, "God as my arhitect" :)

[rameumptom]

Rameumptom....are you LDS?

Yep. I have been for 34+ years.

[rameumptom]

Good thought 1/2y. I like that, "God as my architect" :)

This is also how C.S. Lewis described it. Jesus, as architect and contractor, comes to work on our "house." We think he's going to just change out the carpets and add a little paint.

Instead, he knocks a wall out here, a wall out there. He adds wings to the house, and raises the roof to add several stories. All of this is very painful, and takes a lifetime. We thought we would be a little cottage, but Christ makes a mansion out of us.

No unclean thing can enter into heaven. Any of the heavens. All those who wish to enter into any of the mansions of God MUST be cleansed of all sin. This only occurs through repentance. We MUST give all our sins away to Christ, so that he can fully cleanse us. Otherwise, if we refuse, we reject Christ and the Holy Ghost, and are like refuse, to be tossed into Outer Darkness and suffer the 2nd death.

[Misshalfway]

Dr. T..... What are your thoughts on the law of the harvest with regards to all we have been talking about?

I am referring to scriptures like Galations 6:7 .... "Be not deceived; God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."