Premortal Existence Also Taught in Protestantism?

[Justice]

Same basic feelings I have, Hemi. Funny thing is I see it as logical and something you don't even have to open the Bible to deduce.

PC, as I said, IF it is as you say, that He knew us before He made us, and made us to be the way He knew us, then we are not accountable because we have no other choice but to be how He "imagined" us to be.

If we are not His offspring, then He "created" us from nothing and made us exactly how He knew we would be. Can any creation say, "I am not the way my creator made me?"

I like the question, "Who is man that God is mindful of him?" If He "created" us in any other way than by procreation, then we are little more than ants or zebras. And, He is not our Father, nor are we His children.

And, it is impossible that He would have sent His Son to die for us. What was He thinking? "I love these things I have 'created' just as much as I do my Own Son." What does that mean from His Son's perspective? What will it mean when we become His sons? Could He loved the next things He decides to "create" more than us?

He loves us because we are His seed; His offspring; His children. It makes no sense to me any other way.

[rameumptom]

You point out well the key criticism of Predestination. And, admittedly, many philosophers believe that Foreknowledge is little different. "If God knows it's going to happen, is there really any option?" My response is that Foreknowledge makes room for free will, and so yes, despite the reality that God knows what choices will be made, the choices are still grounded in individual volition. God may be the sole source of our existence, but he built in room for our ability to choose. A Sovereign God can do that.

This is why there are groups among both LDS and Protestants that believe in Open Theology - God knows all that there is to know, but does not know the future. God ends up being the master chess player, determining moves far out in advance as best he can, and making adjustments in his play to ensure His plan is essentially accomplished, while allowing mankind his free will.

There are others who believe in semi-compatibilism, which is harder to explain, but essentially is that God can ignore the future, which allows us the ability to have free will (at least, that's how I understand it).

There are LDS, such as Eugene England, who proposed that God does not know all things in futurity as it relates to his realm, but only in the things he has created.

Of course, for LDS, one of the things which gives us independent free will is the concept that we are made from matter that already exists independently of God. While he forms us, there is always the issue of independence of matter that throws things up in the air. With ex nihilo creation (and especially with predestination), we can only wonder why God didn't create all beings to be good and to be saved.

[EruditioSalvatus]

Amusingly enough, the more people discuss pre-existence and concepts of free will the closer it comes to some of the classic Gnostic traditions

Gnostics recognize that there is a piece of everlasting, divine spirit inside all humans but chalk up rancidness, evil, and cutting people off in the passing lane not to a free will tied to this divine spirit but to simple human decision making. Freedom of choice (will if you may) isn't something bestowed upon us like a driver's license but is an innate trait that all living things possess (except maybe lemmings).

Some people have a "fly in a wind tunnel" view of existence:

We, as humans, are flies and can move about as we wish but the current of the wind is so strong that we are being pulled to an inevitable point. Reaching the end of the tunnel, be that what it may, is the ultimate planned destination but that doesn't keep the flies from buzzing around, landing, or hitting their heads on the side wall as they choose.

[FunkyTown]

We have a catch-22. If this is so, then there is no free agency OR God is far more limited than we imagined. If creation could not choose evil, it would be defective in that it had no power or agency. Yet, you say that if it actually chooses evil, it's defective. What you demand of creation is that it be CAPABLE of evil, but that it be INCAPABLE of actually choosing evil. I would suggest that our ability to choose evil proves that God made us as the highest, most powerful of his creations.

I simply disagree with your requirement that creatures choosing evil indicates defectiveness. God intentional created us capable of evil, and yes, he knew who would and would not go down that dark path. But, by giving us free will, or agency, he granted us incredible potential--indeed towards the exaltation many of us expect to see one day.

I think his question is: "Why not simply create those beings that would end up back in Heaven? If he creates a being that he knows will end up in Hell, isn't he creating a being solely to be tormented, or whose torment acts as an abject lesson far too late for anyone to make a real choice?"

[EruditioSalvatus]

Yeah, it really is an amusing problem. Either god has a total lack of forethought or is inherently cruel.

Reminds me of a great demotivator:

[Justice]

You know, I realize that people claim to get truth from the Bible, and they claim the Bible teaches that God "created man" in His image, like he is some kind of artistic creation. But, where is reason and logic? Is God not logical? People think God can be illogical because we don't understand His ways. But, why do so many miss the fact that God does all things to teach us of Him? That is why He made male and female. It's just the way it is. It's the way His life is. It's not something He devised would be good for us.

Also, I don't understand why people believe there must have been a time when nothing existed. They claim there had to be a first man. Eternity suggest things have always been this way. God told us it has been. How then, at this moment in eternity, was it that God just now decided to create man? Hasn't He existed for eternity? Why didn't He think of it an eternity -1 ago?

Isn't it more logical that there have always been Beings having offspring (children) and doing whatever is necessary to give them opportunity to grow and progress? Why else would God reveal Himself from beyond the veil to us?

Moses 1:

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Why?

Why man?

Man is His offspring. It's the only answer that makes sense. And, this is the method it has always been accomplished.

What is so compelling about a being that has no body, no parts, fills the immensity of space, and was lonely one moment and decided to create something for Him to love, or something to love Him? It just doesn't add up. How can you *really* love that being?

What adds up is that there is male and female in eternity, Fathers and Mothers, and the most important thing to them is their children. Now that's love. And, that is how He has shown us it is by the manner in which He "created" us in His image.

Trying to believe there is no Mother in Heaven is very difficult for me, and leads me nowhere; leads me away from happiness.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Justice