12-year-old Girl Gets Divorce

[john doe]

Reading comprehension tests, useful, but of little value if the teachers don't identify the ones with problems and spend extra time to make sure they understand what they read. Such a pity. You may want to have your parents complain to your school about your lack of comprehension skills, and see that they get you into a remedial course. How many years do you have left before graduation from high school?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Normal Bob@Jul 4 2005, 08:46 PM

You don't think that having sex with a 12 year old falls into the pedophilia category, or just not when discussing people that belong to your religion?

You are the only person to even mention sex with a 12-year-old.

Don't blame me for your chain of thought...

Just for giggles, though, why don't you provide the name of the "member of my church" who had sex with a 12-year-old and proof that he did so? It's your accusation, so it shouldn't be so hard to provide proof, right?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Normal Bob@Jul 5 2005, 12:00 AM

Are you saying that Joseph Smith might have been bisexual?  Ewwww!

See what I mean, John?

Not an adult...

And dodges facts like they were bullets.

I'm starting to get an idea of where we've seen this poster before.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by john doe@Jul 5 2005, 12:19 AM

Reading comprehension tests, useful, but of little value if the teachers don't identify the ones with problems and spend extra time to make sure they understand what they read. Such a pity. You may want to have your parents complain to your school about your lack of comprehension skills, and see that they get you into a remedial course. How many years do you have left before graduation from high school?

[Normal Bob]

Originally posted by Outshined@Jul 5 2005, 05:49 AM

Just for giggles, though, why don't you provide the name of the "member of my church" who had sex with a 12-year-old and proof that he did so? It's your accusation, so it shouldn't be so hard to provide proof, right?

here are some, tell me if you need more.

http://www.childpro.org/ldscases.htm

LDS/Mormon

Legal cases and case studies

·          James Adams-January, 1996 West Virginia-   

This case was filed in Raleigh County Circuit Court in Beckley, WV in January, 1996. Adams was an "Ordained Elder" who sadistically abused his own children, even forcing them to make pornography which was confiscated by the state police. The suit seeks $750 million dollars from the LDS Church and other defendants. The mother who brought the case is identified only as Rebecca Doe. She alleges that LDS Church leaders had known about the abuse since 1989 but did nothing about it until Adam's arrest in 1994. Adams was sentenced to 76 to 185 years in prison. In 1997, the LDS Church sought removal to the United States District Court in Charleston, WV, claiming federal question jursidiction. In the fall, the federal court declined to accept jurisdiction and sent it back to state court. Also in the fall of 1997, the West Virginia Supreme Court, in a 4-1 decision, upheld a trial court ruling that prevented plaintiff's from serving subpoenas on Mormon President Gordon B. Hinckley and other high officials and from seeking detailed statements of LDS Church assets on the grounds they were too "oppressive and burdensome" on the Church...Read more info on the case

Plaintiff's Attorney:

Michael G. Sullivan

1720 Main St. Colombia,

SC +1 803 254-4669

·        Arlo Atkin-Maricopa County, Arizona in 1994

    This case arose in Maricopa County, Arizona in 1994. The plaintiff, Ellen LNU (last name unknown) had been molested twice by the time she was fourteen. Confused and distraught, she and her parents turned to Bishops Arlo Atkin and James "Jim" Stapley, the latter of whom is (was) a Mesa City Council member. Atkin took her into his home in Mesa where she would live with him and his family. Two months later Atkin began a sexual relationship with Ellen, following which she attempted suicide. But the relationship continued. Church members became suspicious. She moved back home with her family. A few months later, Ellen was pregnant with Atkin's child; she claimed she had been raped by another person. But her mother found sexually explicit love letters from Atkin to the girl. Atkin pleaded guilty, served 132 days in jail and was ex-communicated. Ellen gave birth to the child and put the baby up for adoption. Atkins violated probation by having contact with Ellen. The current status of this case is unknown.

·        Eric Patrick "Ricky" Avant-Norfolk, Virginia-

This case arose in Norfolk, Virginia,  Avant was a church cub scout leader. He sodomized eight boys. He had a prior conviction for sodomy, but the church never checked him out and never registered him with Boy Scouts of America which would have run a background check. The LDS Church settled in May 1992 for an undisclosed amount.

·        Christian Bearnson-Los Angeles, California November, 1993

A jury verdict was returned in Los Angeles Superior Court in November, 1993. This case arose in Pomona, California. The jury awarded actual and punitive damages. Shortly after the verdict, the LDS Church settled the case with the plaintiffs for an undisclosed amount and had the file sealed. The perpetrator was a Mormon Church Elder and the plaintiffs were two fourteen-year-old girls. Tammy LNU and Melody LNU were molested by Bearnson at a church-sponsored camp. Evidence was presented that Bishop Bradley Cutler attempted to cover up. Further, there was evidence that two other girls in 1990 had also been molested by Bearnson at a church camp out. The two other girls had gone to the prior Bishop, Robert Wise, who refused to believe their allegations about Bearnson and accused them of making up the allegations to get attention. Wise said, "Chris Bearnson is part of the priesthood and ... nothing like that happens in our church." Wise later denied having made the comment.

·        Gary Arthur Bishop

In Utah Gary Arthur Bishop sexually tortured and murdered five boys, ages 5-14. He was a Mormon Boy Scout leader.

·        John Charles Blome-Montgomery County, Texas, October 1998

This civil case was filed in Montgomery County, Texas and went to jury trial. The case settled for $4 Million after the Mormons were found negligent. A 13 year old boy who was molested by a Mormon Church youth leader in Magnolia Ward was awarded more than his own lawyers sought October 8, 1998. Blome molested many other boys from the same area and in other areas. Sheriff's deputies were upset that the Mormon Bishop tipped Blome to the pending investigation, and he burned evidence before it could be seized. In an earlier case against Blome the Mormon Church was also found negligent.

·        Steven L. Hammock-Salt Lake City, Utah in 1989

      This was filed in federal court in Salt Lake City, Utah in 1989. The plaintiff was Michelle Scott, and the case went to a bench trial in October, 1994. The judge awarded damages in "an amount still to be determined." The LDS Church was not a defendant in the case because this case went to the Utah Supreme Court on the issue of the breadth of the priest-penitent privilege. The court held that the privilege included all conversations and information received by a Bishop from a member regardless of whether it was confessional. The LDS Church was not required to disclose any information Hammock had divulged to them. It is unclear what evidence of knowledge on the part of the church the plaintiff had. Michelle Scott had been adopted by the Hammocks', and he abused her from age 6 to age 13. 

·        Cecil B. Jacobsen M.D.

      This is the infamous infertility specialist who was caught using his own sperm to impregnate his female patients. The story came out when several children were born with the same birth defect. He has since moved to Utah. The motive for his actions may have been the wacky Mormon belief that men are to have as many children as possible to increase their posterity in the afterlife when they will rule other planets in heaven.

·        Robert Gene Metcalf-Prescott, Arizona-1979 

This case arose in Prescott, Arizona and was filed in Maricopa County Superior Court in May 1993. In 1979, Gail Metcalf walked in on her husband, Gene Metcalf, and witnessed him having anal sex with a 13 year old boy who had been residing with them. He was sentenced to prison for six years for his misconduct with the boy as well as with Gail's children. She divorced him and the Church excommunicated him. His parental rights were not terminated, but a six-month no contact order was entered following his release from prison. In 1987, Gail Metcalf developed a brain tumor and needed extensive medical treatment. She contacted her local Bishop to discuss what will happen to her chldren while she is hospitalized. Her civil lawsuit alleges that she was ordered by her Bishop and the Stake President to send her children to live with Gene Metcalf and they would monitor the situation for her making certain the children were safe. She sent them to live with him for eight months when they were molested again. At his sentencing, there was heavy lobbying by politicians connected to the Church in defense of Gene Metcalf. Local Bishops involved and who may be named defendants are Grant Shumway and Don Excell. The case was resolved with an undisclosed settlement on behalf of the Metcalf children.

·        Ralph Neeley-Jefferson County, Texas 1995-

This case arose in Jefferson County, Texas (Port Arthur). In January, 1995, the Church settled for an undisclosed amount with the parents of an eight-year-old girl who was repeatedly molested at a Mormon ward (chapel) by Neeley. Neeley was a Mormon priesthood member and his Bishop knew about the allegations but failed to report it. Neeley's acts against the girl were so gross he got life in the criminal trial. Church leaders claim they encouraged Neeley to turn himself in to the police. John Charles Blome (case noted above) and Neeley were friends. Neeley went to prison first. This lesson of not reporting is one the Mormon Bishops might have learned the first time around since both cases involved the same Mormon authorities. Once again they allowed more children to be hurt while protecting the predatory pedophile. The case settled for an undisclosed amount.

·        John D. Parkinson, M. D-Stake President in Fairfield, California -

This case took place in Fairfield, California and was filed in Solano County Superior Court. John D. Parkinson was a Mormon Stake President who used his position of trust as a doctor and religious leader to molest and misdiagnose women and children who attended the Mormon Church. A female member became concerned about his care and collected accounts of his abuse and brought them to the Mormon leadership. He was protected by the Church higher authorities and this woman moved away branded as a troublemaker. This allowed him free reign among the membership and it took years to get his license to practice medicine removed. His license was removed in part for diagnosing women with cancer, prescribing chemotherapy, and then claiming he cured them when they did not have cancer in the first place. This did not stop him from practicing medicine however, and he has since been found guilty of practicing medicine without a license and other crimes related to the earlier allegations.

·        Lloyd Gerald Pond-Salt Lake City, Utah-March 1997

This case was filed in Third District Court in Salt Lake City, Utah. Pond was a Mormon Church spokesman, the host and executive producer of "Times and Seasons", a public affairs program of the LDS Church, broadcast nationally and overseas. The program focused on moral and social issues, including child abuse. Pond groomed an eleven year old girl, eventually photographing her nude and molesting her at age 13. He received a plea bargain which was criticized in the press for being too lenient. The bargain was considered special treatment because of his position and connections. A newspaper article from March 2, 1997 discusses the plaintiff's attempts to obtain discovery of the prosecutor's file in the Pond case and the resistance put up by the Salt Lake City District Attorneys office to the civil subpoena.

Plaintiff's Attorney

David K. Isom

                  60 E. Temple, #1680

                  Salt Lake City, UT 84111

                  +1 801 366-6000

·        Richard Kenneth Ray-Maricopa County, Arizona 1987

The case was filed in Maricopa County, Arizona about 1987. This case involved molestations of a two year-old girl whom Ray and his wife babysat for a year and a half. The suit alleged negligence for the Church's failure to report Ray to authorities and in counseling offered to Ray. This case was the subject of an Arizona Court of Appeals ruling that the priest penitent privilege waiver did not apply because the perpetrator later confessed to police. The court ordered Mormon Bishops to reveal what Ray had told them about prior molestations. The Church settled the case on January 9, 1990, the day of trial, for an undisclosed amount.

·        Michael Rex Shean-Santa Maria, California

      This case arose in Santa Maria, California. Shean was an attorney and Mormon Church leader who used his position as coach, attorney, and religious teacher to groom boys for seduction. The Stake President in the case was an FBI agent, Nolan Phillips, who should have been much more alert to the problem of a predatory pedophile in his flock. The Mormon Church was found negligent and settled for an undisclosed amount.

                  Plaintiff's attorney:

                  William Johnson

                  Bennett, Johnson & Galler

                  Oakland, CA

                  (510)444-5020

Peter Brackner- Purvis Mississippi

Lawsuit alleges child molestation in Columbia, Mississippi man who claims he was molested as a child by a Boy Scout leader is suing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Jason Dunaway, 24, is seeking $25 million and claims in his lawsuit that the Mormon church did nothing to prevent sexual attacks on him by scout master Peter Brackner of Purvis. Dunaway said a Mormon leader was told of the alleged sexual misconduct but did nothing. Dunaway was part of a boy scout troop sponsored by the Columbia Mormon church, according to his lawsuit filed Tuesday in Lamar County Circuit Court. He claims in the lawsuit that the molestation began when he was 11 years old in 1985. A similar lawsuit was filed this spring by a relative of Dunaway's.

John Clark, a Jackson attorney who has represented the Mormon church, said the church "abhors sexual abuse, spousal abuse, any kind of abuse."

·        LaVar Withers M.D.-Rexburg, Idaho-

This case is filed as a class action in the United States District Court for the District of Idaho and arose in Rexburg, Idaho, a Mormon controlled community. The suit does not name the LDS Church as a defendant but

names Madison Memorial Hospital, as well as Withers, and Rexburg

Medical Center. Over 125 women and children came forward to the Rape Crisis Response Center to tell of his abuse over a thirty year period. Numerous women had told their Bishops of his abuse through the years. Still the Mormon Church protected him and helped with his defense denouncing the women as dissatisfied troublemakers. His criminal sentence was extremely light considering his crimes: Thirty days suspended and a small fine. There were eight children in the criminal case. He preyed upon young women who were away from home for the first time attending the local Mormon college. All the victims, prosecutors, judges, doctors and law enforcement are Mormon, so it is unlikely the LDS Church will be named as a defendant for their negligent acts. This is a case where the County ought to sue the Mormon Church for not reporting. One would think the LDS Church would have learned from this case to report suspected abuse.

Unfortunately, the same LDS Church and the same hospital watched silently as a three month old baby, William Genther, was tortured to death. The child was brought to the hospital eight times with serious injuries and it was never reported to authorities. In one of the news accounts it states that the father's stepmother, Gleneen Genther, reported to church authorities that she feared for the infants life. They did nothing.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Meridiani@Jul 2 2005, 12:30 AM

Laurel, whether you are a moderator, or not, it makes no difference, to me.

One really cannot point the finger at others without pointing three (other fingers) back at themselves.

The "practice" of marrying off young girls is certainly common, in other countries: you are not in a position

to judge them, on this;.......

People, here at this forum, just will not consider anything that disrupts their "world".

Don't be a hypocrite, laurel!

If you feel free to judge OTHERS for marrying off 14-year-olds, then it is time, in my opinion, for you to take

a hard look at Joseph Smith's young teenage brides, too!

"What's good for the goose is good for the gander!"

And, to all the coyotes (predators, at this board who are offensive in attacking people, personally): here's a

'piece of meat, for you--come and get it, then!'

Can anyone, at this board, tell me what puts the cult in culture?

Meridiani~ Just to clarify something....I was the one who started the thread about the 12 year old, saying it was sick and wrong....SICK AND WRONG! I will stand by my opinion in that, I don't want LaurelTree taking crap from something I posted to start with.

And as for "People, here at this forum, who will not consider anything that disrupts their "world"~ another clarification....I am a 'people' at this forum....and I consider a lot of things that disrupt my "world"..... part of who I am. I would probably shock you with things I "consider" that have or may still disrupt "my world" as it is.

And as a coyote......if I see something I think is wrong... yes, I will attack if I feel strongly enough about it; but I have also been known to see the bait dangling in front of me.....and chose to walk away from it. Such as the question of "what puts the cult in culture?

As for Biz and Normal B........ I am sure that you both are intelligent enough to figure out for yourselves the "that was then" "this is now" differences with very little effort. What was "an acceptable age" to marry is now considered child rape (in America) Other countries it's another story, since they have different standards of acceptable ages for marriage.... but 12?

And as for the posts about the sicko's abusing children... I don't give a flying rat's butt is they are LDS or not....they were WRONG....and will be judged accordingly. Yes there are bad people in every religion...and the mormons are not immune to perverts within their ranks. Sad, but true.

[Normal Bob]

Here is an interesting article:

Many Mormon leaders and historians suggest that sexual relations and the marriage of Joseph Smith and his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball, fourteen at the time was "approaching eligibility."

There is no documentation to support the idea that marriage at fourteen was "approaching eligibility." Actually, marriages even two years later, at the age of sixteen, occurred occasionally but infrequently in Helen Mar's culture. Thus, girls marrying at fourteen, even fifteen, were very much out of the ordinary. Sixteen was comparatively rare, but not unheard of. American women began to marry in their late teens; around different parts of the United States the average age of marriage varied from nineteen to twenty-three.

In the United States the average age of menarche (first menstruation) dropped from 16.5 in 1840 to 12.9 in 1950. More recent figures indicate that it now occurs on average at 12.8 years of age. The mean age of first marriages in colonial America was between 19.8 years to 23.7, most women were married during the age period of peak fecundity (fertility).

Mean pubertal age has declined by some 3.7 years from the 1840’s.

The psychological sexual maturity of Helen Mar Kimball in today’s average age of menarche (first menstruation) would put her psychological age of sexual maturity at the time of the marriage of Joseph Smith at 9.1 years old. (16.5 years-12.8 years =3.7 years) (12.8 years-3.7 years=9.1 years)

The fact is Helen Mar Kimball's sexual development was still far from complete. Her psychological sexual maturity was not competent for procreation. The coming of puberty is regarded as the termination of childhood; in fact the term child is usually defined as the human being from the time of birth to the on-coming of puberty. Puberty the point of time at which the sexual development is completed. In young women, from the date of the first menstruation to the time at which she has become fitted for marriage, the average lapse of time is assumed by researchers to be two years.

Age of eligibility for women in Joseph Smith’s time-frame would start at a minimum of 19 ½ years old.

This would suggest that Joseph Smith had sexual relations and married several women before the age of eligibility, and some very close to the age of eligibility including:

Fanny Alger 16

Sarah Ann Whitney 17

Lucy Walker 17

Flora Ann Woodworth 16

Emily Dow Partridge 19

Sarah Lawrence 17

Maria Lawrence 19

Helen Mar Kimball 14

Melissa Lott 19

Nancy M. Winchester [14?]

And then we have this testimony:

"Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this."

- Joseph Smith's close confidant and First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 1887

Short Bios of Smith's wives:

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org

Did Smith have sex with his wives?:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

Whatever the average age of menarche might have been in the mid 19th-century, the average age of marriage was around 20 for women and 22 for men. And a gap of 15 to 20 years or more between partners was very unusual, not typical. Whatever biology might have to say, according to the morals of his time, several of Joseph Smith's wives were still inappropriately young for him.

It is a pure myth that 19th-century American girls married at age 12-14. You merely need to go to your local courthouse and ask to see the old 19th century marriage books. Take a look at and pay attention to the age at marriage. Sure a very few did, but it was far from the norm. The vast majority of women married after the age of twenty. The case is even true in pioneer Utah among first marriages. Mormon men in their twenties started out marrying someone their own age. Then later these older men married girls under twenty to be their plural wives. But the first wives were the age of the husband and married over the age of twenty. This is still the case is the rural Utah polygamist communities.

References:

Coale and Zelnik assume a mean age of marriage for white women of 20 (1963: 37). Sanderson's assumptions are consistent with a mean of 19.8 years (Sanderson 1979: 343). The Massachusetts family reconstitutions revealed somewhat higher mean ages. For Hingham, Smith reports an age at first marriage of 23.7 at the end of the eighteenth century (1972: Table 3, p. 177). For Sturbridge, the age for a comparable group was 22.46 years (Osterud and Fulton 1976: Table 2, p. 484), and in Franklin County it was 23.3 years (Temkin-Greener, H., and A.C. Swedlund. 1978. Fertility Transition in the Connecticut Valley:1740-1850. Population Studies 32 (March 1978):27-41.: Table 6, p. 34).

Jack Larkin, The Reshaping of Everyday Life, 1790-1840 (New York: Harper & Row, 1988), 63; Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, Good Wives: Image and Reality in the Lives of Women in Northern New England, 1650-1750 (NY: Oxford University Press, 1980), 6; Nancy F. Cott, "Young Women in the Second Great Awakening in New England," Feminist Studies 3 (1975): 16. Larkin writes,

Dr. Dorothy V. Whipple, Dynamics of Development: Euthenic Pediatrics (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1966)

[Outshined]

Poor Normal Bob; he's made wild claims he can't back up! As John said, there is no credible evidence that JS ever had sex with a 14-year-old, let alone the 12-year-old that you jumped into. The original conversation was about JS, so who is this 12-year-old he's talking about?

And those "many mormons" who married children? Sources?

Your other long cut-and-paste was of illegal activity, and included how many marriages? None. Nice try, but you can dig up such cases on any organization, doesn't really help your desperate cause. We could even find a nice list of criminals with your last name; it would have the same bearing on you that the pathetic list you copied has on the LDS Church. That is to say, none.

Helen Mar Kimball has been discussed here plenty; we even had a member at one time who went by the name. Sorry to let you down; I know you thought you were really dropping a bomb.

While McKeever and Johnson readily accept the insinuation that all of Joseph's relationships were sexual, they fail to consider or even recognize the speculative (and what at times has been described as the self-serving) nature of Compton's exploration of polyandrous marriages. Sources do not show nor is there any reliable evidence that the way Joseph practiced polyandry included sexual or familial relations. Compton's only hint of possible intimacy with a married wife is a second-hand late account in 1915 wherein a daughter of one of Joseph's married wives related a story told to her thirty-three years earlier, that she was Joseph's child. This debatable piece of evidence, taken at face value, has been plausibly interpreted as meaning either that Joseph was the biological father or that he was the father in merely a spiritual sense. Either way, if the married wife, Sylvia Sessions, meant with certainty that Joseph was the biological father, she obviously would have to have been restricting her relationship to Joseph and not her excommunicated first husband,63 thus demonstrating a faulty application of the definition of polyandry.

Although Joseph fathered some children through marriages with wives that had been single, a parallel case cannot be made which supports that type of intimacy with wives that had been married to others. While Compton finds evidence for sexual relations in some marriages, he admits the possibility that other marriages had no sexual relations, which marriages those are, he does not specifically say.64 Compton's ultimate position is that if there is no good evidence to prove a non-intimate relationship, then the union must be sexual. The broad and often speculative nature of Compton's work can be shown in his treatment of Zina Huntington Jacobs' relationship with Joseph: "Nothing specific is known about sexuality in their marriage, though judging from Smith's other marriages, sexuality was probably included."65 Speculation based on "probably included" hardly amounts to fact, although certain critics (such as McKeever and Johnson) seem to think it does.

The Case of Helen Mar Kimball

My father...taught me the principle of Celestial marrage, & having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth...my father introduced to me this principle & asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph.69

It was after this that Joseph was invited to teach and explain the principles of Celestial marriage. Upon learning of the principle for herself from Joseph, she willingly committed herself to the eternal link. Her marriage to Joseph was to ensure choice personal and family relationships. McKeever and Johnson lead the reader to believe there were other aspects to the marriage and issues with Joseph that would have caused her to take second thought on the arrangement. A non-sexual aspect to the marriage can be reasonably assumed as Helen continued to live with her parents after the sealing.70 This is in harmony with historian Stanely B. Kimball's interpretation that the marriage was unconsummated.71 Although Compton leaves this window of speculation open, even he does not indicate that Helen's initial or later perceptions were sexual in nature. It was, rather, the sacrifice of youthful interaction with her peers who now did not fully accept her that was troubling her as she was excluded from social scenes. This is made clear when she wrote, "They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold...Bar'd out from social scenes by this thy destiny."72

Opposite the suspicious anti-Mormon quote that both Compton and Van Wagoner share some odd regard towards, Helen's own words shed some light on her true retrospective feelings towards Joseph and plural marriage:

I did not try to conceal the fact of its having been a trial, but confessed that it had been one of the severest of my life; but that it had also proven one of the greatest of blessings. I could truly say it had done the most towards making me a Saint and a free woman, in every sense of the word; and I knew many others who could say the same, and to whom it had proven one of the greatest boons--a "blessing in disguise."73

Helen later wrote of the unwavering faith in her union with the prophet:

I have long since learned to leave all with Him, who knoweth better than ourselves what will make us happy. I am thankful that He has brought me through the furnace of affliction & that He has condesended to show me that the promises made to me the morning that I was sealed to the prophet of God will not fail & I would not have the chain broken for I have had a view of the principle of eternal salvation & the perfect union which this sealing power will bring to the human family & with the help of our Heavenly Father I am determined to so live that I can claim those promises.74

If there were still doubt as to her convictions, following the Prophet's death, she again entered into a marriage, which became plural, with Horace Kimball Whitney. Prior to Helen and Horace's ceremony in 1846, Horace stood before Helen as proxy for Joseph Smith to have their ordinances reconfirmed.75

Regardless of any source issues raised here, McKeever and Johnson attempt to portray a scandalous scene of teenage coercion on the part of Joseph, all the while ignoring the nineteenth-century context in which teenage marriages were found typical. The authors also fail to mention that such young marriages were common practice in the Protestant polygamist past, seemingly feeling no need to condemn their own past for the same thing they see practiced in early Mormonism. While McKeever and Johnson attempt to sensationalize Helen's marriage as exploitative, Compton points to such young marriages as being dynastic in nature.76

As a final note in understanding this aspect of plural marriage, it must be realized that polygamy had aspects of societal reform contained within. Such aspects were designed to raise society to higher standards of morality and spirituality. Included in this design was to remove women from the spectrum where they could otherwise become victims of wicked men. In 1884 Elder Charles W. Penrose described this as placing women in a position "to give them the opportunity to become honored wives and mothers, so that there might be 'no margin left for lust to prey upon,' no field for the tricks of the seducer and the adulterer, the corrupt and the ungodly."77 This is in harmony with George Q. Cannon's 1881 statement that "We desire to have no margin of unmarried women among us."78 This margin ran the spectrum of maturity, from old to, in this case, the younger age of Helen Mar Kimball.

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/morm201/m20117b.html

Interesting that Bob's op-ed article jumps to many conclusions on Helen's development without having actual knowledge of her, yet she herself never condemned JS or polygamy in later life...

You're trying hard, but no cigar.

By the way, cutting and pasting an article without giving credit to its creator is plagiarism. If you're going to steal material from the exmormon site, give them credit for their work, eh?

[Outshined]

As a teenager Helen Kimball had been a polygamous wife of Mormon founder Joseph Smith. She subsequently married Horace Whitney. Her children included the noted Mormon author, religious authority, and politician Orson F. Whitney. She herself was a leading woman in her church and society and a writer known especially for her defense of plural marriage. Upon Horace’s death, she began keeping a diary. In it, she recorded her economic, physical, and psychological struggles to meet the challenges of widowhood. Her writing was introspective and revelatory. She also commented on the changing society around her, as Salt Lake City in the last decades of the nineteenth century underwent rapid transformation, modernizing and opening up from its pioneer beginnings. She remained a well-connected member of an elite group of leading Latter-day Saint women, and prominent Utah and Mormon historical figures appear frequently in her daily entries. Above all, though, her diary is an unusual record of difficulties faced in many times and places by women, of all classes, whose husbands died and left them without sufficient means to carry on the types of lives to which they had been accustomed.

http://www.usu.edu/usupress/individl/Widow...39;s%20Tale.htm

[Outshined]

I knew you sounded familiar. I ask for proof of your lame assertions, you choke and start name-calling and using profanity. You haven't grown up yet.

It's not my fault you were trying to prove the unproveable, or that you don't understand LDS history.

Your "unbiased" source is the exmormon site? I need to get you a dictionary, kid.

Nice dodge of the facts; you give an opinion from exmormon, I give you quotes from Helen herself, and you run scared. I don't blame you; you're making claims you can't back up.

You really got desperate with your sources, but then again, you were trying to back up a lot of tripe, weren't you?

It was the name-calling, profanity, and some of your wording that gave away who you are.

[Outshined]

John Doe, I know you recognize the posts now. All that's missing is his pornographic avatar.

I had hoped he'd grow up before coming back.

[Outshined]

I think I'll post a reply to some of Bob's rant:

People get married, and then blah blah blah.

This segment illustrates that Bob does not understand what was going on. John Doe tried to explain it earlier, but it fell on deaf ears.

It happened, and it is still happening. Didn't you hear about the warrant for Warren Jeffs? Blah blah

Again, Warren Jeffs is not a member of our Church. That would be like calling David Koresh a Seventh-day Adventist, though I wouldn't expect Bob to know the difference.

Joseph Smith's plural marriages weren't legal either. That makes him.....a child molester......not the legal kind.

BZZT! Nope, sorry, but thanks for playing. They were Church-sanctioned and considered legal, with no evidence that any were consummated aside from his union with Emma. And you are still illustrating a lot of ignorance about the marriages.

Your apologetic tripe doesn't interest me. I prefer unbiased and HONEST sources.

In other words, you couldn't handle quotes from Helen herself. Run away, run away! You prefer "unbiased and honest sources", like the opinion piece from the exmormon site. The shame is that you don't realize how funny you are...

Are you going to sue me? If not, what is your problem?

The problem is that when you try to put yourself on a high moral ground, it doesn't help that you are stealing someone's material in the process. Just a little clue for you.

Sorry you weren't able to provide more substance, but it was at least entertaining. Have a nice day!

B) B)

[john doe]

Thanks, Outshined. I knew his garbage sounded familiar, but I must have missed the profanity you speak of. Maybe if he spent more time researching truths and less time looking through the trash for spout-off points, he could get a clue about things.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by john doe@Jul 7 2005, 10:30 PM

Thanks, Outshined. I knew his garbage sounded familiar, but I must have missed the profanity you speak of.

That post was deleted by the mods.