A few questions about the plan of salvation

[deblldo]

Hi All,

Was hoping you could answer a couple of questions for me. I understand the Lds teaching of the plan of salvation (well not totally or else i wouldnt be here lol).

It all makes perfect sense to me but there are a few things that i cant reconcile. If we all agreed on the plan of salvation in heaven then what part did satan play? why did he tempt Eve? Did God decide to use him anyway despite his dis-obedience or did satn just play into God's hands?

Also if God came up with the plan of salvation why did He tell Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of good and evil? Was He just setting a test to see if we really wanted to go through with it? I hope im explaining myself enough?

I know this is all basic doctrine for you guys and i apologise if you have gone through this lots of times , but i appreciate your time.

thanks

deb

[Misshalfway]

What part did Satan play in the counsel in heaven?

Well, he was a heavenly politician so to speak. He wanted to be chosen as Jesus was and he presented his salvation platform. He also wanted not only Christ's glory, but Father's as well. His plan was not even to have a savior really. He wanted to guarantee or force people to be obedient/saved. Because agency is an eternal principle, we were given the opportunity to choose. So....I suppose his role was to establish opposition in all things.

And in the garden, I think God allowed Satan to do what his kind do. If you want to say God is using Satan to test us, then I think that would be accurate too. It is clear that we must know the bitter to appreciate the sweet and Father knew that evil must be introduced into the world. Now....I am not sure if Eve had another choice. Perhaps instead of taking the fruit she could have taken her quandry to Father and asked his opinion. But it is clear that the events of the fall opened the door to the atonement. Otherwise none of us would have been born let alone saved.

You may want to search the BofM and maybe even a little Moses for a scriptural view. Maybe even add a little study guide to your reading.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Hi All,

Was hoping you could answer a couple of questions for me. I understand the Lds teaching of the plan of salvation (well not totally or else i wouldnt be here lol).

It all makes perfect sense to me but there are a few things that i cant reconcile. If we all agreed on the plan of salvation in heaven then what part did satan play? why did he tempt Eve? Did God decide to use him anyway despite his dis-obedience or did satn just play into God's hands?

Also if God came up with the plan of salvation why did He tell Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of good and evil? Was He just setting a test to see if we really wanted to go through with it? I hope im explaining myself enough?

I know this is all basic doctrine for you guys and i apologise if you have gone through this lots of times , but i appreciate your time.

thanks

deb

"did satn just play into God's hands"?

Yes.

"Also if God came up with the plan of salvation why did He tell Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of good and evil?"

In order to fall Adam had to violate a commandment, if God had told him to eat of the Tree, and Adam did, he would have been obedient to God and thus not in transgression, and there would have been no Fall.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Hi All,

Was hoping you could answer a couple of questions for me. I understand the Lds teaching of the plan of salvation (well not totally or else i wouldnt be here lol).

It all makes perfect sense to me but there are a few things that i cant reconcile. If we all agreed on the plan of salvation in heaven then what part did satan play? why did he tempt Eve? Did God decide to use him anyway despite his dis-obedience or did satn just play into God's hands?

I think God would have found some way of giving us the opposition we need, even if Lucifer had been a good boy in the premortal life.

There are some who theorize that Satan is actually playing the part assigned to him by God - ie after God asked for a messiah, he asked for an adversary. *shrug* This goes against accepted belief and, in the end, why Satan is Satan doesn't really matter to our eternal salvation.

Also if God came up with the plan of salvation why did He tell Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of good and evil? Was He just setting a test to see if we really wanted to go through with it? I hope im explaining myself enough?

Adam needed to break the law in order for the plan to move forward - ie mortality, children, the Light of Christ (conscience) etc. Adam can't break a law if there is no law to break - therefore God gave Adam the commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree.

Moses 5

" 10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

I might also say that there are some who consider the Garden of Eden and Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to be allegorical - ie Adam transgressed not by eating an apple, but by partaking of knowledge that God had forbidden him. In any event, the purpose, meaning, and result of the whole matter is the same.

I hope I'm not being too confusing :)

[sixpacktr]

In the Book of Mormon, we learn from the prophet Lehi that there must be an opposition in all things. I know that other religions do not hold to the concept of a pre-mortal life as we in the LDS faith do, so some of this may seem 'strange' to you, but it makes sense to me, and so I will try to explain as I understand it, with some scriptural back up for why I believe what I do.

Satan wanted God's glory (Moses 4: 1-4). He put forth a plan, in direct contrast to our Heavenly Father's plan (which was also Jesus' plan, who is like the Father in all things, so much so that he told Phillip that if you'd seen Him (Jesus) you'd seen the Father, because their actions would be identical in whatever situation they may be found in). Satan, in my opinion (My OPINION, so take it with as much salt as you wish) had the same complex most younger brothers have: he was living in Christ's shadow (in his mind), and let's face it, that is an awfully long shadow! He wanted glory, honor, etc., etc., just like some (not all) younger brothers trying to impress their parents, and so he came up with an alternate plan: I'll get them all back, mortality will be taken care of by ME, but I want the glory and honor because I'm doing it all. So, the conflict of good and evil, to me, begins as a family feud between brothers (to be put very simply), one righteous and loving, one jealous and a glory hound.

We chose sides there. All of us on earth chose Christ's plan. We wanted to be tried and prove to our HF that we would choose him in spite of the odds. In order for us to be tried, there had to be an opposition. As we all know, we don't really know what we'll do until we are put in a position where we have to choose, sometimes when no one is looking. Whether to steal, or lie, or whatever, if we aren't tested in our resolve, there is no real test. So Satan plays a role, but not the one he wanted. He, instead, is now trying to frustrate the plan that HF and Jesus championed, and again, IMO, he is trying to prove that his plan was better by destroying (as best as he can) those that follow Christ (in particular. See 1st Peter 5: 8-9). So while Satan plays a role, he wasn't 'foreordained' to that by HF. He chose it, and is allowed to tempt and try us (see the entire Book of Job) so that we can prove to God we will be faithful.

As for the fruit and the Garden and Adam and Eve's part, our HF allows us agency in all things. He couldn't force them to partake and suffer the consequences (mortality, sickness, hard work, etc) but had to have them make the choice themselves (Moses 3: 16-17). So he set up the test, and allowed them to make the decision themselves. Again, IMO, we waited with bated breath for them to partake and that a great cheer went up as they did so (again IMO), as we LDS believe that part of the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve was their ability to have children, and thus give us an opportunity to come to earth and thus prove to God we would obey him in all things.

Does that help at all?

Edited August 5, 2009 by sixpacktr

[Justice]

As you can tell by the answers given, these questions require some background in order to answer properly.

We, meaning all who were born on earth, agreed to Father's plan. However, there was also a part that didn't. Satan, and all those that followed him, had and exercised their agency. God did not force any of them to rebel against Him. They chose to.

The 2 things we needed in order to progress, or to be like Father:

1. A physical body

2. Knowledge of good and evil

Satan's role was that he thought he could give us those 2 things differently than what Father proposed. He wanted to take away the agency of man and provide for thier salvation in a different way.

However, there is only one way it can be accomplished.

We came to earth, gained a body and the knowledge of good and evil, and must rely on the Savior to redeem us.

Satan and his followers came to earth without a body and have had their agency removed.

If you think about it, both sides got exactly what they wanted.

If you read Alma 12 you can get some wonderful insight into what Satan's plan was.

[breecatasnana]

Hi All,

Was hoping you could answer a couple of questions for me. I understand the Lds teaching of the plan of salvation (well not totally or else i wouldnt be here lol).

It all makes perfect sense to me but there are a few things that i cant reconcile. If we all agreed on the plan of salvation in heaven then what part did satan play? why did he tempt Eve? Did God decide to use him anyway despite his dis-obedience or did satn just play into God's hands?

Also if God came up with the plan of salvation why did He tell Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of good and evil? Was He just setting a test to see if we really wanted to go through with it? I hope im explaining myself enough?

I know this is all basic doctrine for you guys and i apologise if you have gone through this lots of times , but i appreciate your time.

thanks

deb

I suppose there may be more than one answer to some of these questions, but for what it is worth here is my two cents. Our desire was to become more like our Heavenly Parents--to grow up you might say. The plan of salvation was to give mankind (Heavenly Father's children) a chance to leave God's presence, and learn through experiences. It was also to give man a chance to obtain a body, like our Heavenly Parents had, and learn how to use and control it. The goal: to prove ourselves and to come more like our Heavenly Parents if we so choose.

Since this was our desire our Father called a family meeting and told us how our wishes could be obtained, but that it would require a Savior, because during our learning and growing process we would mess up and need to be redeemed from justice. Through a Savior justice could be satisfied and mercy extended to us, so we could return to our heavenly home.

At this point Satan came up with what he thought was a better plan. If mankind was forced to do good then they would not owe justice any thing and a Savior would not be required, and not one soul would be lost. He was so proud of himself for coming up with a plan he thought was better than Heavenly Father's that he wanted Heavenly Father's glory.

At this point Jesus stepped up and said let's go with Heavenly Father's plan, and I will volunteer to be that Savior. He gave all the glory to the Father.

Heavenly Father rejected Satan's plan, because it would defeat the whole purpose. We could not grow to become like our Heavenly Parents if we were denied the very learning experiences that would bring this about. So Jesus was chosen to be the Savior. Satan rebelled and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven sided with him.

In order for man to have the necessary experiences for his growth he would have to fall. This had to be man's choice, not something God did to man. By giving man the tree of knowledge man was allowed to choose whether to partake of it and become mortal and go through life's learning experiences; or not to partake of it and remain in innocence forever. God warned Adam and Eve what would happen if they partook of the tree, they would become mortal and die, but He allowed man to choose.

Now, no one can choose unless there is opposition, a choice between various things, so the tree of life was also placed in the garden presenting a choice for Adam and Eve. They could partake of the tree of life and live forever in innocence, never progressing or growing beyond that point, or they could partake of the tree of knowledge becoming as the Gods knowing good and evil, and become mortal learning how to use that knowledge to choose good.

One must also be enticed by various things in order to make a real choice, so Satan was sent here to entice us in one direction while the Holy Ghost entices us in another. Opposition allows us choices in all things. We learn by choosing and going through the consequences of those choices, good or bad.

As for Satan I believe he was just continuing what he had done in Heaven. Trying to get us to rebel aganist Heavely Father as he had, so we would be miserable like him. I would think he thought He was getting Adam and Eve to go against God's will. He had to know that he could not win them over if He did not get them to disobey, so even if he knew it was part of God's plan for Adam and Eve to fall he still had to get them to do it if he would have even a chance of winning them over. The fall was a chance for Heavenly Father's children to grow to become like Him, and was also Satan's only chance to win any more of Heavenly Father's children over to his side. It all comes down to giving man choice, and man can use that choice to become like God or like Satan. Satan is playing into God's hands by enticing man, thus giving man a choice, but in turn Satan will get some followers by enticing man to follow him. It is simply a continuation of the war that started in heaven.

Penny

[deblldo]

Hi,

thabkyou to you all, very helpfull,and brought back some of the conversations i had with missionaries. Its hard some times to stop thinking how i have been taught and to start thinking more logical, makes sense now thanks again,

deb