Do You REALLY Know? Nope.

[Snow]

I know you are mistaken. I don't have a need to prove it, because I experience it. Whether or not you understand or believe it is immaterial. You and your beliefs are unimportant in my world. I have the proof I require. You have chosen to dismiss that type of proof. That is not for me to worry about.

Au contraire. I don't dismiss any proof. If there is any, let's have it. I am eager to hear it.

[Honorentheos]

Just because someone else does not understand how I know or that I know, does not change the fact that I know.

I think that the most interesting aspect of the OP is that it suggests an objective way of determining if a person actually did know rather than just believed.

For example, most americans have knowledge concerning nutrition and the effects of eating certain ways. And many if not most have access to eating in a manner after their choosing rather than being reliant on fate or good fortune to bring them a meal.

Yet, most americans are in a less-than-ideal situation when it comes to health, LDS not excluded. Ice cream should be in the WOW.

Why is this? You could argue it is not lack of knowledge since most if not all americans do know enough to "know" that eating that bowl of ice cream may lead to a shortened life span or at least a bigger waist size.

But the truth is, when a doctor looks a man in the eye and says, "If you don't change your eating habits, the problems that prought you into my office will kill you in a year" that man has a new ability to eat right and change. Why?

He/she didn't "know" that their eating habits would effect "them"...they just had broad bits and pieces of information on nutrition.

I think that if you actually KNEW God existed, you wouldn't have to say it. If you know how to eat right, no amount of big-bones in your family will obscure this from people around you. It will be pretty obvious. You might not be a size 4, or wear 32" waist pants or whatever, (or a monk) but it will still be obvious.

Judging from your contempt of Snow, I have my doubts regarding your level of actual knowledge of God. You may have a good deal of information regarding what the LDS church teaches about God, and you may have had expriences that confirm that you are on the right track. But I don't think you actually know God. Not in any real sense.

[Gatorman]

Well, this type of discussion leads back to any type of knowledge. How do we know that the sky is really blue? What if it is really orange?

Or, one of my favorite lines from a movie, essentially ends with, imagine what we will know tomorrow. Not everyone knows the same things at the same time. That does not mean that the facts are any less true or that because only a few have the knowledge, that it is not true. Did the fact that the Queens and Kings of the world not 'knowing' about gravity mean that Sir Isaac Newton did not know it. Did him teaching it to them change that somehow? So, even the word know can have different understandings. So, perhaps the OPs position on Snow is more strict. But, it does not change my position on know. Nor does it make either of us wrong. So, yes, it may be semantics.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

A lot to read through, and I'm lazy... So if somebody's already quoted this, my bad.

Luke 22

31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Even seeing God does not make you converted and does not add to your righteousness. Consider Laman and Lamuel and all the incredible experiences they had. I would agree that "knowing" and "believing" are two different things. However I would suggest that knowing without believing has no greater impact on your actions than believing without knowing.

John 7

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Mark 9

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

I think a lot of people say they "know" because it makes them feel better about something they're really uncertain about. Others say it to sound more spiritual and impress people. Very few say it who actually do know. All of the misuse of the phrase really belittles its intended meaning.

I know the scriptures bring joy and peace.

I know Jesus the Christ lives.

Everything else I struggle with. I never was very good at the whole faith thing.

:edit:

We don't break the rules around our parents or others, not because we know they exist, but because they offer IMMEDIATE consequences. The consequences of sin are not always - in fact they are rarely - immediate.

:/edit:

Edited August 31, 2009 by puf_the_majic_dragon

[Honorentheos]

Did the fact that the Queens and Kings of the world not 'knowing' about gravity mean that Sir Isaac Newton did not know it. Did him teaching it to them change that somehow? So, even the word know can have different understandings.

I think this is a pretty good example, actually.

Before Newton, I'm sure people figured out that what went up came down. Newton, being the conceited giant of thinker he was figured out the relationship of this phenomena to mass and made more than a few pretty accurate models for using this to predict certain future events.

But he was wrong in a way and it took Einstein to develop the current model that is even more accurate.

But IT isn't perfect yet, either. Over 90% of the observed gravity in the Universe is unaccounted for and we are almost guaranteed to have to revise our model yet again.

Some argue that this is reason for dismissing science in favor of other kinds of knowledge. I would suggest that, despite his errors, Newton was on the right track and lead to Einstein, who will in turn lead us to the next level of understanding. Religion, when it gets out of it's better realm, seems to be backtracking instead.

I think momentum is in Newton's et. al's favor here.

[john doe]

I'm tiring of these fights. All you people who attack Snow for his statements that you don't know something are missing the point. The fact is, unless you have actually seen God here in this life, then you don't know He exists. You may see the evidences and feel the Spirit testifying the truthfulness to His existence, but those are not true knowledge. They are strong belief or faith. To be honest, I believe those are more desirable in a person than a person who has to have absolute knowledge before believing. Thomas doubted, but Christ told him that those who have faith in Him would be blessed. Joseph Smith knew, Sidney Rigdon knew. The other few who were blessed to see Him in vision knew. The rest of us believe in faith. I believe that the believing in faith can many times be more powerful than the pure knowledge. I think it is partly a blessing that many of us don't gain that perfect knowledge because that would mean that some of those who do gain that perfect knowledge and turn away from it would be in deep trouble at the judgement bar.

Or am I missing your point also, Snow?

[Justice]

Prove that you know and I'll gladly acknowledge that I am mistaken.

I prove that I know by telling you that I know, without lying or deception.

Either you believe I'm telling the truth, or you believe that I'm lying. Either way, I still know.

I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God because I have read it and prayed with real intent to know that it's true. I have felt the witness born by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now, I have told you I know and how I have come to know. Only those who have come to know can understand that I do know and how I came to know. If you do not know, then my words will seem empty, vain, and as dogma (a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds).

The old saying "it takes one to know one" seems to apply here.

Do I know all things? Certainly not. But, I do know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that Jesus Christ appeared to the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. I know it as sure as I'm sitting here typing these words to you.

Am I perfect? No, far from it. But, I recognoize my weaknesses and imperfections. I strive daily to overcome them.

I am weak, but I know.

[Gatorman]

Thank you Justice. You have said what I was trying to get across so much more clearly.

I prove that I know by telling you that I know, without lying or deception.

Either you believe I'm telling the truth, or you believe that I'm lying. Either way, I still know.

I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God because I have read it and prayed with real intent to know that it's true. I have felt the witness born by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now, I have told you I know and how I have come to know. Only those who have come to know can understand that I do know and how I came to know. If you do not know, then my words will seem empty, vain, and as dogma (a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds).

The old saying "it takes one to know one" seems to apply here.

Do I know all things? Certainly not. But, I do know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that Jesus Christ appeared to the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. I know it as sure as I'm sitting here typing these words to you.

Am I perfect? No, far from it. But, I recognoize my weaknesses and imperfections. I strive daily to overcome them.

I am weak, but I know.

[Snow]

I prove that I know by telling you that I know, without lying or deception.

Either you believe I'm telling the truth, or you believe that I'm lying. Either way, I still know.

That's not proof nor does it make much sense.

Now, I have told you I know and how I have come to know. Only those who have come to know can understand that I do know and how I came to know. If you do not know, then my words will seem empty, vain, and as dogma (a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds).

It's not that your words SEEM as dogma. They are, in point of fact, dogma, by definition.

Read what you wrote. It's pure dogma.

Why do you think you know when I don't know. That is, why has God singled you out but failed to single me out for such knowledge?

[Gatorman]

That is difficult to know Snow. Perhaps because Justice has shown greater faith. Perhaps because Justice needed to know at some point, based on experience. Perhaps because Justice spent more time listening than talking. By your reasoning, how come Joseph Smith knew? How come Sidney Rigdon knew? Perhaps Justice has some greater purpose. Or, perhaps, as the scriptures teach, it is possible to know by the Spirit. His words seem reasonable and correct to me. I get his point. He knows things I don't. I probably know things he doesn't. And, we both can know things as well. But, that does not mean we can help you know. In some cases, especially this, knowing is not a matter of physical senses, as it were. It is a matter of evidence given by the Spirit. As such, we can teach OF it, but, we can not give it to you. That is your responsibility, not ours. And, that is the journey the scriptures say that we are to be on. We are on a journey to know that these things are true for ourselves. To do that, I kneeled in prayer, I went to the temple, I pondered quietly, I ignored the world and the intelligence of men. These are some of the things that helped me prove and know that the Gospel is true, that Christ lives, and the Heavenly Father is real. I can not prove it to you, because, the evidence is personal.

That's not proof nor does it make much sense.

It's not that your words SEEM as dogma. They are, in point of fact, dogma, by definition.

Read what you wrote. It's pure dogma.

Why do you think you know when I don't know. That is, why has God singled you out but failed to single me out for such knowledge?

[Honorentheos]

I prove that I know by telling you that I know, without lying or deception.

Either you believe I'm telling the truth, or you believe that I'm lying. Either way, I still know.

I would offer a third option. You are using the word, "know" incorrectly to describe belief. When you were describing the second person (Either you believe...) you were more correct.

It's a lot easier to see these things in others than in one's self.

[Justice]

Why do you think you know when I don't know. That is, why has God singled you out but failed to single me out for such knowledge?

My honest answer is I don't know.

I am a thinker. I ponder an awful lot about the question you just asked, why some know and some don't. And, even more specifically, why is it I know?

I don't know.

Why doesn't God just show Himself to everyone and prove He exists?

I don't know.

It has something to do with faith, and not having knowledge until we're ready for it.

I don't know why God has chosen me to reveal this to. I don't view myself as anyone special. In fact, I believe there are others who could and would do far greater things with this knowledge. I am still trying to overcome this natural world. There are some things in it very diffciult for me to give up.

Snow, from the bottom of my heart, I don't know. I wish I knew. I wish I could tell you what you need to hear.

You (or someone) said that Joseph Smith knows because he saw God. Well, I know that Joseph Smith saw God. I just do. I can tell you what the scriptures teach about coming to know and how it's supposed to happen. I never really had to work hard at coming to know. I seem to have always known. I am thankful every day and night for this knowledge I have.

I think maybe I needed to know, for some reason, to help me be better. I think the Lord has to work a little harder for me than He does most. And, I'm so very grateful that He has shown me this tender mercy.

[Justice]

I would offer a third option. You are using the word, "know" incorrectly to describe belief. When you were describing the second person (Either you believe...) you were more correct.

It's a lot easier to see these things in others than in one's self.

You know, I believe those who "just" believe will be dealt with more mercifully at the last day than those who know. So, I'd love to take your bait and say I just believe. But, if I did, I would be lying to you, to myself, and to God.

I really do know. It scares me sometimes to think I do. But, the more I think about it and the deeper I ponder, I can't escape it.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Justice

[Honorentheos]

Now, I have told you I know and how I have come to know. Only those who have come to know can understand that I do know and how I came to know. If you do not know, then my words will seem empty, vain, and as dogma (a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds).

The old saying "it takes one to know one" seems to apply here.

One of the other problems I have with this is I have seen it posted by many a former member of the LDS faith as well.

I think I understand both views and, while I lean to one more than the other, I am pretty certain that both sides still just believe they are the ones that have it right. It just seems like knowledge from the inside.

[Snow]

Well, this type of discussion leads back to any type of knowledge. How do we know that the sky is really blue? What if it is really orange?

Good question.

We don't have to rely on dogma or whether one person who claims it is blue or another person claims it is orange.

"Blue" is the word that we have assigned to what we perceive as being evoked by visible light whose spectrum is dominated by energy with a wavelength of about 440 to 490 nanometers. You don't have to guess and it's not dogma. You an actually measure it, predict it, and reproduce it

[Snow]

Repeat

While ya'll are chewing on what's been written so far, let's also try a different tact...

Certainly you are aware that there are Catholics and Evangelicals and Muslims who also KNOW that they and their version of theology are correct and true. They know just as undoubtedly and certainly and absolutely as do Mormons...

CHALLENGE to all who claim that they "KNOW:"

Please explain objectively and non-dogmatically why the Catholics and Evangelicals and Muslims sorely mistaken in their "knowledge" and you are not.

[Snow]

My honest answer is I don't know.

I am a thinker. I ponder an awful lot about the question you just asked, why some know and some don't. And, even more specifically, why is it I know?

I don't know.

Why doesn't God just show Himself to everyone and prove He exists?

I don't know.

It has something to do with faith, and not having knowledge until we're ready for it.

I don't know why God has chosen me to reveal this to. I don't view myself as anyone special. In fact, I believe there are others who could and would do far greater things with this knowledge. I am still trying to overcome this natural world. There are some things in it very diffciult for me to give up.

Snow, from the bottom of my heart, I don't know. I wish I knew. I wish I could tell you what you need to hear.

You (or someone) said that Joseph Smith knows because he saw God. Well, I know that Joseph Smith saw God. I just do. I can tell you what the scriptures teach about coming to know and how it's supposed to happen. I never really had to work hard at coming to know. I seem to have always known. I am thankful every day and night for this knowledge I have.

I think maybe I needed to know, for some reason, to help me be better. I think the Lord has to work a little harder for me than He does most. And, I'm so very grateful that He has shown me this tender mercy.

You may not have the answer - but I do.

I have every bit as much of understanding and "knowledge" as anyone here. I just am able to separate my religious enthusiasm, conviction and dogma from fact and knowledge.

[Gatorman]

Good question.

We don't have to rely on dogma or whether one person who claims it is blue or another person claims it is orange.

"Blue" is the word that we have assigned to what we perceive as being evoked by visible light whose spectrum is dominated by energy with a wavelength of about 440 to 490 nanometers. You don't have to guess and it's not dogma. You an actually measure it, predict it, and reproduce it

Good. So, how would you feel, Snow, if at that day you gain perfect knowledge, you find out that the sky is orange. That knowledge you have would prove to have been wrong. So, did you truly know? You evoke things that can be seen, perceived, measured. Well, I can't measure wavelength. I don't have the tools or equiptment. Does it change the fact that those equipped with the tools and equiptment can measure nanometers? I don't understand light that deeply, so I don't 'know' it. Does that change the facts for you Snow? No. Just because I can't prove it does not mean it is not true. Same as here. Just because you don't understand this or understand how we can know it and prove it for ourselves, does not make it less true.

Call it dogma. Call it faith. Call it whatever you want. I could really care less Snow. As I said earlier, it is pointless to try to go any further. It is a journey you have to make on your own. Until you know, you likely won't understand how others know. You will be like many others, looking for the answer. I do wish you well on that journey. But, you lack of knowing does not change it. I know Christ lives, just the same as I know I live. It is part of me. It exists IN me. Not a belief. A certain knowledge. I know I will have the opportunity to work towards celestial glory. Here is the kicker Snow. I knew most of the things we are taught in the BoM and in church...BEFORE I ever read the book of Mormon. Now, explain that. How can I KNOW, without ever having been taught. I was raised around the Episcopal and Catholic churches. I knew infant baptism was wrong. I knew Christ died to deal with Adam's sins. How could I 'know' that if I was not taught it? How do I prove I knew it? I don't. I am satisfied with my own understanding that I know it. I share that fact and knowledge with the world. Then, I leave you to your agency to accept it, deny it, ponder it, or ignore it. But, in the end, I know what I know.

[Snow]

I'm watching the show Psych right now.

A priest just said: "You may not believe that exorcisms are real. But trust me, I KNOW, I can testify to it.

Okay.

[Justice]

Once I was in an interview with a High Councilor. He opened the interview with "What do you think of the Book of Mormon?"

I was overpowered. I couldn't speak. All I could do is sit there and cry.

I am a very logical and rational person. I was a mechanical designer for 24 years. I assisted engineers with the design of new products. I used math and logic. I am not easily taken into stories, theories, or statements that have little to no factual basis.

Yet, here I am.

[Gatorman]

Repeat

While ya'll are chewing on what's been written so far, let's also try a different tact...

Certainly you are aware that there are Catholics and Evangelicals and Muslims who also KNOW that they and their version of theology are correct and true. They know just as undoubtedly and certainly and absolutely as do Mormons...

CHALLENGE to all who claim that they "KNOW:"

Please explain objectively and non-dogmatically why the Catholics and Evangelicals and Muslims sorely mistaken in their "knowledge" and you are not.

The same way people had knowledge of the earth being flat. The same way Newton had knowledge of gravity. But, now we are talking semantics. The facts of today can easily be the myths of tomorrow. But, by the argument, we have no sure knowledge. Your science knowledge is just as unreliable as our faith knowledge. The knowledge is only as good as the evidence at hand and the methods to test. Everything pointed to a flat earth, as far as the people of that day could understand, comprehend, and measure. The scientists of that day thought they were very smart. Many of them look like simpletons to us today in their methods and mistakes. Imagine the geniuses of the future as they look back at us and think us the simpletons, because of the science we have today.

For whatever reason, I can not provide you the evidence and proof I have. Can I admit I may be wrong? Sure. But, that does not mean I don't know. It means I recognize that my knowledge is limited to my current understanding, etc. If to know means to have perfect knowledge, then, we know nothing at all. Because, we will not have perfect knowledge of anything until the time it is made known to us.

[Snow]

Call it dogma. Call it faith. Call it whatever you want. I could really care less Snow. As I said earlier, it is pointless to try to go any further. It is a journey you have to make on your own. Until you know, you likely won't understand how others know. You will be like many others, looking for the answer. I do wish you well on that journey. But, you lack of knowing does not change it.

You are kinda missing the point.

I've been a faithful, devote, obedient, studious, prayerful Mormon for decades and decades. I understand from experience exactly what others say they know and how they know it. In this case I speak from a position of experience and authority.

On the other hand, if you have even a sliver of a thread of evidence to the contrary - I'd most wholeheartedly welcome it.

[Gatorman]

You are kinda missing the point.

I've been a faithful, devote, obedient, studious, prayerful Mormon for decades and decades. I understand from experience exactly what others say they know and how they know it. In this case I speak from a position of experience and authority.

On the other hand, if you have even a sliver of a thread of evidence to the contrary - I'd most wholeheartedly welcome it.

I can not give you my proof Snow. Just as I can not give you my testimony. I can share my testimony. I can share what I know. But, Snow, there is nothing I can hand you to measure and study, beyond the things you already have. This is a knowledge that you have to achieve for yourself. You want sceintific knowledge to prove something that is not scientific. But, science is not the only knowledge. And, you speak from a position of your own experience. But, your authority is no more than my own. Unless you are claiming to be the Holy Spirit, Heavenly FAther, Christ, or some authority who is given to know my heart and mind, and not merely make assumptions based on teh evidence you see, then, you do not have the position of authority and experience you think you do.

[Justice]

You may not have the answer - but I do.

I have every bit as much of understanding and "knowledge" as anyone here. I just am able to separate my religious enthusiasm, conviction and dogma from fact and knowledge.

The word I fall back on is truth.

I believe many things we have come to accept as truths may not be. If it was determined through experiment that a thing is what it is, then we can always learn more and change our views. But, when God reveals truth, we can be 100% concinved it is true and it will not change. It's not easy to do. It requires faith.

So, attach whatever word you will to it, probably all apply. But, the truth is that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Believe it or know it, it is truth that will never change.

[Snow]

Once I was in an interview with a High Councilor. He opened the interview with "What do you think of the Book of Mormon?"

I was overpowered. I couldn't speak. All I could do is sit there and cry.

I am a very logical and rational person. I was a mechanical designer for 24 years. I assisted engineers with the design of new products. I used math and logic. I am not easily taken into stories, theories, or statements that have little to no factual basis.

Yet, here I am.

I suppose that you are making a point about the power of spiritual experiences. We don't much talk about them publicly but privately when I do talk to others, it is clear to me that the experiences I've been blessed with are typically much deeper and robust than those that most/many others in the Church experience. I don't deny the spiritual experiences but do understand the difference between them, faith and knowledge.