The Righteous VS. The Good

[drjackcv]

To summarize, the question I think is more profitable to the person in front of us is, "What can you do for the Saviour and his children?"

[drjackcv]

Almost everyone, if not "all people" want to be needed more than they want to be needy. They will appreciate the person who can show them how to help others more than the person who says, "How can we help you." -- except in emergencies.

[Matthew0059]

drjackcv-

I don't know how you came across this thread, but it brings back memories. The "Maxel" that started this thread is me; I had my handle changed some time after posting this for personal reasons. It has offered a chance for me to reflect on the growth and follies of recent years. Thank you!

IIRC (I don't have time to read through the whole thread), the purpose of the thread was to generate discussion about what 'level' (Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial) of soul would be considered 'righteous' in regards to the Lord not destroying a town 'for the sake of the righteous' (as He promised Abraham he would not destroy Sodom if he found a certain number of 'righteous' people dwelling therein). My understanding has matured and grown quite a bit since then. To my understanding (which is faulty; the Lord is the Great Judge) Terrestrial souls are caught up in the great battle between the Telestial souls (wicked) and the foreordained "Celestial" souls (members of the Church of the Firstborn who either do or do not know they belong thereto). Every Creation is a testing period for all involved- for Terrestrial souls the test is will they join themselves to the just and honorable things of God- thereby winning the oppurtunity to "go up higher" after this world has passed away- or will they allow themselves to be blinded by the "subtle craftiness of man" and beholden themselves to an erroneous assumption of what is "just and honorable" in the sight of God? They key to happiness for Terrestrial souls is to find and follow the prophet of God and begin working on a personal connection to the Lord. According to this understanding, there may very well be many Terrestrial souls who perished in Sodom who had 'failed' the test of finding the truly honorable things of God, but who would still be redeemed, in due time, through the Atonement of Christ.

You have brought up some interesting topics that I have been thinking about lately, and will devote a single post to each one. Yes, I am actively planning to doublle-post: my apologies!

Rescuemom, you asked how we judge who is a Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial soul. I submit that, unless the Spirit of the Lord reveals that information to you, it is impossible to tell. There are certain patterns to know who, among the Key Figures of the History of the World (prophets such as Adam, Enoch, Moses, Joseph Smith; Jesus and Satan; et al) are Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial souls that are not given to the children of men right now, but I believe can be found among the "lost" sacred texts if one is guided by the Spirit of the Lord.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Matthew0059

[Matthew0059]

The Church is the terrestrial kingdom. Much better than the telestial, but not celestial. We have many celestial souls in the Church, but the Celestial kingdom is somewhere else. We also have many honorable, intelligent, friendly, helpful Terrestrial souls in the Church -- and they are perfectly welcome in the Church and in the Millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ.

A Living Dispensation (with the Dispensation King, or Lawgiver, at its head) is a terrestrial organization. If the Dispensation continues in all the "goodness" (commandments) it has received, it will eventually bring forth a Zion city wherein Christ Himself can dwell- that is the grand purpose of evey Dispensation, I believe. IMO, at this point that Zion city becomes a Celestial-level organization, and must be seperated from the Earth to prevent it from overtaking the Earth.

If that Living Dispensation is not true to all the statutes given to it, it fails to bring forth a Zion city and eventually fades away into apostasy (such as former-day Israel after Moses and Joshua). Such a Dispensation will begin turning away from the Truths it was given by the Lawgiver- eventually denying, in its core, the Lawgiver's authority and allowing corruption to officially overtake it (such as the Greek Sanhedrin choking the final breaths out of the Mosaic religion; or how the formation of the Catholic Church choked out what few faithful Christians were left in the Roman Empire).

In the scriptures of every great religion that I have studied, the doctrine of this life being a testing and proving is fundamental. The exams in any class are probationary, and generally not fun. This is an exam, and every grade is happiness. Even Perdition & Sons will enjoy their own place (D&C 88:32). Now that's a Great Plan of Happiness! What kind of God would promote such a plan? (2 Ne 26:24; 1 Ne 11:22, 23)

I think this is a very good perspective. Edited September 26, 2011 by Matthew0059

[drjackcv]

The Prophet taught that Enoch's city was terrestrialized, not celestialized, when it was taken up. ("History of Joseph Smith," Deseret News, Vol. V, No. 11; quoted in John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, p.72-75)

The more I study and ponder the Plan of Salvation, the more convinced I am that God is in actual fact omniscient, seeing the end from the beginning in detail, and seeing the heart of every intelligence that He selected out to receive spirits, bodies and probation in this round of Salvation.

Apostle Orson F. Whitney's oft quoted conference address of April, 1929 led me to a most fruitful question several years ago: How can God make this unequivocal promise to the "parents of wayward children"? This portion of his talk has been quoted at length by prophets and apostles ever since. It's sound doctrine, and indeed comforting.

This life is a time of testing, not spiritual evolution. Learning is a distant second purpose for this probationary state. Probation means proving, testing, demonstrating to myself and to the universe just who I am at the very core, demonstrated primarily by what I believe (lieve = liebe = love. Be-lieve is to be thoroughly in love).

I don't think we prove anything to God.

I do think that foreknown Terrestrial souls have valuable and joyous parts to play in building the Lord's kingdom on earth. They are righteous, and have several (perhaps many) traits in common with Celestial souls. At least 1) They are honorable, 2) they receive Jesus Christ, 3) they want to be self-reliant and to share with others, 4) they want to know the truth. The first 3 are from latter-day scripture, the 4th is from Aristotle.

I believe they need to be honored, welcomed and invited continually to serve in the church, invited to come unto Christ, but not made to feel guilty if they only want to come to be with him, not to be like Him, one in Him. (Look up the word "in" in your college dictionary.)

A dear friend came to me the other day crying, literally, about an honorable, congenial mutual friend who has decided to stop attending church. Because my friend wants more than anything to be one in Christ, she can't imagine anything but heartbreak in any kingdom but the Celestial. But there is no heartbreak in the other kingdoms of glory, is there? Only joy, salvation and glory that surpasses all understanding. God and the heavens weep because of our short-term sufferings during this probation, but not because of our final destinations. Our loving Father is happy about what He has set in motion. The Great Plan of Happiness makes the Celestial kingdom happy, the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms happy, Outer Darkness happy, and it makes God happy.

The free, untrammeled use of agency makes all people happy eventually. That's the Plan that I see through a glass darkly.

[Matthew0059]

The Prophet taught that Enoch's city was terrestrialized, not celestialized, when it was taken up. ("History of Joseph Smith," Deseret News, Vol. V, No. 11; quoted in John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, p.72-75)

Thank you for the source! It was enlightening. What I meant by the city of Zion being 'celestial' was that the laws upon which it was structured were 'celestial' in nature. What that means is that, so long as the inhabitants followed that law (which they did) the city of Zion would be a 'celestial' organization- or, in other words, one that by its very nature progressed and expanded (Telestial organizations decrease and lose Light and Truth; Telestial organizations remain the same; Celestial organizations expand and increase in Light and Truth). The inhabitants, who kept all the commandments they were given, would have been by definition 'terrestrial' (holding true to the Light and Truth they had received).

Apostle Orson F. Whitney's oft quoted conference address of April, 1929 led me to a most fruitful question several years ago: How can God make this unequivocal promise to the "parents of wayward children"? This portion of his talk has been quoted at length by prophets and apostles ever since. It's sound doctrine, and indeed comforting.

I agree- although I've never read it until just now when I looked it up. I believe that, if we could have the veil of this temporal Creation drawn back, we would see how each one of us has had hands and lives in multiple Creations.

This life is a time of testing, not spiritual evolution. Learning is a distant second purpose for this probationary state. Probation means proving, testing, demonstrating to myself and to the universe just who I am at the very core, demonstrated primarily by what I believe (lieve = liebe = love. Be-lieve is to be thoroughly in love).

Yes... State of Probation vs. State of Progression.

I personally believe that those souls that we may call "terrestrial" (that are good and honorable men of the earth but don't join the Church nor achieve any Priesthood in this life) aren't as "old" as what we call "celestial" beings.

Oh, and I'd be wary of Greek philosophy. Socrates, Aristotle, et al. were evil, evil men and Greek philosophy and statecraft is directly responsible for much of the evil in the world.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Matthew0059

[Matthew0059]

By the way, how did you come across this thread? Just curious.

[drjackcv]

Thanks for your thought, Matthew.

I found this thread googling something, probably with regards to Celestial/Terrestrial Common Denominators.

I see that you and I diverge in who we think members of the Church are. McConkie and others have been pretty clear, I thought, that there are many terrestrial souls in the Restored Church who are destined for just that kingdom. Again, keys in the lockers at the temple have no place in a celestial-populated environment, do they? Really, they draw the mind toward Telestial and worse.

I was baptized at age 8, but did not consciously make the covenant until I'd been out in the mission field for several months! Unbelievable, but true. Maybe I'm the only one? I'd already been through the temple by then, of course, and then made the baptismal covenant. It boggles the mind.

[Telestial organizations decrease and lose Light and Truth; Telestial organizations remain the same; Celestial organizations expand]

I'm not at all sure that's true. What are your references for that statement?

My speculation is that the Celestial person will be allowed to progress in all directions, 360 degrees on any 3-D tangent.

Terrestrials souls will be dammed/damned in some directions, but free to continue progressing in most others (perhaps 270 degrees on any tangent.

Telestials will have eternal progression (I postulate) within more limited boundaries, but where God and Christ are they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76:112)

In outer darkness, there will be...I have no idea. I suppose that even a snake gets more wily and tough over time. What exactly "unpardonable sin" and "not forgiven...neither in this world, neither in the world to come" mean, I don't know either.

In any case, God promises unequivocally that anyone who repents will be forgiven. Then He states unequivocally that some sins will not be forgiven -- and also that there is no progress from one kingdom to the next. Both ideas, of course, are true.

The only way I can see to reconcile them is to reject "spiritual evolution". Some souls simply are incapable of repenting, worlds without end. "Gods in embryo" may look (spiritually) more like salamanders than like our heavenly parents, but not be salamanders hoping to evolve into a different species.

[Matthew0059]

I see that you and I diverge in who we think members of the Church are. McConkie and others have been pretty clear, I thought, that there are many terrestrial souls in the Restored Church who are destined for just that kingdom. Again, keys in the lockers at the temple have no place in a celestial-populated environment, do they? Really, they draw the mind toward Telestial and worse.

Honestly, looking around me and awakening to the "awful situation" our country is in, and then applying the same Eternal Principles to where the Church is, and then by some very personal revelation... I fear that the current "make-up" of Church membership is far more Telestial than Terrestrial or Celestial. One former bishop/stake president I have been in contact with over the years guessed (and I have reason to trust his judgment) that at least 60% of the members were under the influence of the 'spirit of Antichrist' as he called it (meaning that they are not really followers of God, that they love the world more than Him, they are blinded by the craftiness of men and will refuse to escape that blindness; etc.).

I was baptized at age 8, but did not consciously make the covenant until I'd been out in the mission field for several months! Unbelievable, but true. Maybe I'm the only one? I'd already been through the temple by then, of course, and then made the baptismal covenant. It boggles the mind.

I didn't fully make the covenant in my heart until I was about 20 as well. Since then, it's been an interesting ride!

[Telestial organizations decrease and lose Light and Truth; Telestial organizations remain the same; Celestial organizations expand]

I'm not at all sure that's true. What are your references for that statement?

My first source for it was someone from another forum. The fuller doctrine is that "things in a Telestial kingdom decrease; things in a Telestial kingdom remain the same; things in a Celestial kingdom increase". Also, the 'kingdom' of Outer Darkness is the result of the loss of all Light and Truth from its inhabitants. Things in such a kingdom don't transmit or reflect Truth (Light).

I'll get back to you for the references to this; I have to run. They're in the D&C, in the sections that explain the differences between the 3 Kingdoms of Glory.

[drjackcv]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts & observations with us, Matthew. I appreciate your refreshing candor.

Moses, during his interview with Satan (Mos. 1:12-22), tried several times to dismiss the dragon. At one point old Scratch got mad and commanding, and Moses "began to fear exceedingly, and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell." Hell, then, would appear to be a place where the big dog hates you, wants and has the power to do you damage. The Prophet Joseph taught that Satan has more power to the extent that he has more knowledge than we. Jos. F. Smith taught that knowledge is different than intelligence (light and truth), which is what you said. But we need to be clear that Satan will still have enough knowledge of truth to have power in Outer darkness, and lots of it. Cain even more.

I think you overestimate the number of Telestial souls in the Church. Nephi saw our day, where even the humble followers of Christ do err, being taught by the precepts of men. (I take your caution about Greek and other philosophers seriously.)

I look around the world and certainly the Church and see that most people, the vast majority everywhere I've lived (USA, Canada, Samoa, Germany) are honorable. They don't love to lie, although they do it sometimes under duress. Heck, I've done it! Most of them are trying to pay their bills, help others, raise their children in light and truth. Take a careful look around your ward, including the less-active members, and see if you can fill the fingers of one hand with those who practice witchcraft, are pimps or are totally useless, irresponsible liars. There are lots of fornicators sleeping around and shacking up, but that's way different than adultery, which is home wrecking disruption of an existing family. Again, Orson F. Whitney's Apr 1929 conference address comes to mind.

In genealogy we consider a common law pairing (living together, shacking up) to be a marriage. The children are sealed without question to their parents. As I understand it, baptism, temple marriage and sealings are celestial ordinances. As far as I know, they have nothing to do with the Terrestrial kingdom. So we have to assume that God considers at least some of these people to be Celestial candidates. That means they kept the law of the Celestial kingdom. Wow!

Many people refuse to join the Church because their parents/family object. Sometimes that's just an excuse, but sometimes it's the true reason. How can we fault a man who refuses to break his mother's heart? Is that Cel, Ter or Tel? For myself, I feel for such people, wish them well, and leave them in God's loving hands. My faith can be boiled down to Marion D. Hanks's maxim, "All the rules will be fair, and there will be pleasant surprises along the way."

The world is a telestial organization -- and even it is increasing in fits and shocks. The Church is a terrestrial organization -- far better than the world, comprises primarily of Celestial and Terrestrial (righteous) people. The Celestial organization is somewhere else, though there are Celestial souls levening every nation and culture, in and out of the Church of Christ. That's how it looks from the rock I'm sitting on.

PS. Is Alma 12:11 the reference you're thinking of?

[Matthew0059]

Moses, during his interview with Satan (Mos. 1:12-22), tried several times to dismiss the dragon. At one point old Scratch got mad and commanding, and Moses "began to fear exceedingly, and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell." Hell, then, would appear to be a place where the big dog hates you, wants and has the power to do you damage. The Prophet Joseph taught that Satan has more power to the extent that he has more knowledge than we. Jos. F. Smith taught that knowledge is different than intelligence (light and truth), which is what you said. But we need to be clear that Satan will still have enough knowledge of truth to have power in Outer darkness, and lots of it. Cain even more.

I'm actually of the opinion that the end destiny of Satan, Perdition, and the Sons of Perdition is to return to native intelligence (without self-awareness; the removal of their 'I AM' component that makes us Gods and Gods in embryo). But I do agree that for now, Satan and Cain and the rest have far more power than any one of us individually. Even Michael (Adam) had to repel Satan by commanding him in the name of Christ to depart.

I think you overestimate the number of Telestial souls in the Church. Nephi saw our day, where even the humble followers of Christ do err, being taught by the precepts of men.

Maybe. It's possible that I'm wrong- and that would be fantastic! I am not in the habit of saying to myself "so-and-so is a Telestial soul" or "so-and-so is a Terrestrial soul". It would be wonderful if the majority were just and honorable people.

In genealogy we consider a common law pairing (living together, shacking up) to be a marriage. The children are sealed without question to their parents. As I understand it, baptism, temple marriage and sealings are celestial ordinances. As far as I know, they have nothing to do with the Terrestrial kingdom. So we have to assume that God considers at least some of these people to be Celestial candidates. That means they kept the law of the Celestial kingdom. Wow!

I agree. My maternal great-grandfather may be one- there's signs that he had dementia of some sort, and he had his women (no more than one at a time though; he was always faithful although rarely married) but my mother remembers his great, magnanimous spirit. He lived and died without the Gospel. Even many of the Founding Fathers of America, who we know to be righteous men, had their mistresses and vices. Yes, there is a price to pay for temporal sins- but a small one compared to the great glories that await us!

The world is a telestial organization -- and even it is increasing in fits and shocks.

It exists in a telestial atmosphere, but the Earth itself "filleth the measure of its creation" and therefore abideth the "law of a celestial kingdom" (D&C 88:19).

The Church is a terrestrial organization... The Celestial organization is somewhere else, though there are Celestial souls levening every nation and culture, in and out of the Church of Christ. That's how it looks from the rock I'm sitting on.

Amen!

PS. Is Alma 12:11 the reference you're thinking of?

It's not what I was thinking of, but it does hint at the nature of (how I understand) Telestial kingdoms. D&C 88:19-29 and D&C 93:27-28 speak of the laws governing celestial kingdoms (receiving light until that Perfect Day). My reasoning is this:

-A being is under condemnation for not receiving Truth and Light that is manifest to it

-The Law given to all beings is to receive Truth and Light

-Those who keep this Law fulfill the Celestial requirements

-Damnation is the punishment that attends condemnation

Therefore, those who refuse the Light received (Telestial) cannot abide the laws of a higher kingdom and are doomed to lose the Light they have received (decrease).

Therefore, those who refuse some greater Light but keep the lesser Light cannot abide the laws of a higher kingdom but do not lose all the Light they have received (stay the same).

Therefore, those who receive all Light manifest to them fulfill the measure of their Creation and continue to receive Truth and Light until they are Whole and Perfect (increasing).

The above line of reasoning (and it's not as solid as I'd like; in somewhat of a rush here again- sorry!) leads me to believe that there is an oppurtunity for progression between kingdoms sometime after this Creation is over. I adhere to the idea that the phrase "Eternal Lives" as found in the D&C refers to multiple mortal lives (that is, being born of woman many times on different Creations). I can't prove that by the scriptures, though.

-God bless, Matthew