Romans...what Was It Saying?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Romans 8:13 “those who live by the flesh fail.”

[Guest arthur_lds]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 29 2005, 02:33 PM

Romans 8:13  “those who live by the flesh fail.”

←

Invested in each of us is a divinity. We are literally spirits begotten by Heavenly Father with divine attributes. We are literally "gods in embryo", as Spencer W. Kimball puts it. However, through transgressions of the Holy Law, man has become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and we must overcome these things.

We are exhorted to "Abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul." 1 Peter 2:11.

Selfishness, sexual immorality, hate, greed, and any other sin is a fleshly lust and it wars against the soul.

I recommend reading "The Dual Nature of Man," which I believe to be chapter 2 in the David O. Mckay "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" handbook.

God bless and good luck in your studying.

[Guest Omen]

Paul is talking to a people who had about the same philosophy as the Lamanites as described by Ammon in Alma. They supposed that whatever they did was fine and that there wasn't any consequences to living a carnal lifestyle. Paul was indicating to them that to life such an "eat, drink, and be merry" philosophy had eternal consequences, thus the reply that to live by the Spirit and forsake the carnal way of life would ensure a reward in the hereafter.

[Eric]

Romans 8:13 “those who live by the flesh fail.”

Actually, this verse simply means not to trust in the works of the flesh to save you. Apostle Paulk says in Philippians: "have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3-8]

Simply put....It means that we are not to trust in the flesh for salvation.

-eric

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by arthur_lds+Sep 30 2005, 07:36 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 29 2005, 02:33 PM

Romans 8:13  “those who live by the flesh fail.”

←

Invested in each of us is a divinity. We are literally spirits begotten by Heavenly Father with divine attributes. We are literally "gods in embryo", as Spencer W. Kimball puts it. However, through transgressions of the Holy Law, man has become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and we must overcome these things.

We are exhorted to "Abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul." 1 Peter 2:11.

Selfishness, sexual immorality, hate, greed, and any other sin is a fleshly lust and it wars against the soul.

I recommend reading "The Dual Nature of Man," which I believe to be chapter 2 in the David O. Mckay "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" handbook.

God bless and good luck in your studying.

←

Thank you for responding...

I love that phrase..."which war against the soul." That is powerful imagery...

I understand the 'overcoming the flesh...' but to fail... would you say it is referring to failing to gain a reward then?

I was thinking about it referring to more like our scripture to not rely upon the arm of flesh... what do you think?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Eric@Sep 30 2005, 06:12 PM

Romans 8:13  “those who live by the flesh fail.”

Actually, this verse simply means not to trust in the works of the flesh to save you. Apostle Paulk says in Philippians: "have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3-8]

Simply put....It means that we are not to trust in the flesh for salvation.

-eric

←

Well, that's one interpretation. Omen's is another. For example John Wesley says of Romans 8:13

"The deeds of the flesh - Not only evil actions, but evil desires, tempers, thoughts. If ye mortify - Kill, destroy these. Ye shall live - The life of faith more abundantly here, and hereafter the life of glory."

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Eric@Sep 30 2005, 08:12 PM

Romans 8:13  “those who live by the flesh fail.”

Actually, this verse simply means not to trust in the works of the flesh to save you. Apostle Paulk says in Philippians: "have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3-8]

Simply put....It means that we are not to trust in the flesh for salvation.

-eric

←

I appreciate all of you taking some time here.. and I am finding your reponses very enlightening...

So what you are saying here is that our physical works are not going to save us? Of course you are also saying within your thought that works like baptism etc... if done with spiritual confirmation and righteousness... will count... right?

I am still thinking that maybe this scripture is referring to something about our relying upon the Lord to have the strength to live righteously because on our own... we fail so often...

I was thinking of the power to endure given in Moroni... and that kind of thing... you know?

There is those scriptures like... all things are possible through Christ which strengthens me...

When I try and over come some fleshly habit ... like eating too much... when I do it by myself... I fail... but the one time I did it with the Lord as a complete partner... totally changing my mindset and being filled up with His love... being already full and given extra power to endure... I was successful...

Do you think this could apply to this scripture?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow+Sep 30 2005, 08:28 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Eric@Sep 30 2005, 06:12 PM

Romans 8:13  “those who live by the flesh fail.”

Actually, this verse simply means not to trust in the works of the flesh to save you. Apostle Paulk says in Philippians: "have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3-8]

Simply put....It means that we are not to trust in the flesh for salvation.

-eric

←

Well, that's one interpretation. Omen's is another. For example John Wesley says of Romans 8:13

"The deeds of the flesh - Not only evil actions, but evil desires, tempers, thoughts. If ye mortify - Kill, destroy these. Ye shall live - The life of faith more abundantly here, and hereafter the life of glory."

←

Could you build on that a little?

[Eric]

I accept the prophets interpretation.

-eric

[Snow]

Originally posted by Eric@Sep 30 2005, 06:49 PM

I accept the prophets interpretation.

-eric

←

Here's the problem with that:

First, it is hardly persausive to say that some unnamed and unquoted authority agrees with you. I wonder if you could provide us the name and exact quote please.

Second, you are probably confusing this verse with other scripture that cautions against relying on the arm of flesh as opposed to relying on the Lord. That's not this verse.

Third, you shouldn't pick one verse out of a book or chapter and interpret it in isolation. The first part of book of Romans illustrates God's grace and forgiveness, so much so that one might be fall into a trap of faulty thinking, namely, "Hey, the more I sin, the more God can forgive me. Cool. I can live any way I want to." But then in Chapter 6 Paul switches gears and reacts with outrage to that kind of liberal thinking. He then talks about Christian living and discusses why sin is so hard to overcome. Does God forgive everything, no matter how bad? What really happens when we become Christians - do we change or do we not?

If that is not enough Chapter 8 itself starts out addressing sin and sinful nature and sinful man. Chapter 8 is like a breath of fresh air. It is one of the most hopeful passages in the Bible telling us that sin can be overcome and that as the Spirit works along side us as we relate to God.

Some people don't always grasp the Elizabethan language of the KJV. It is sometimes useful to check modern langauge versions to gain understanding, besides which some modern versions are superior or at least more accurate translations. The NCV says: "If you use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit's help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." The NIV says: "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

In this case Omen's and Arthur's interpretation is correct.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow+Sep 30 2005, 10:29 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Eric@Sep 30 2005, 06:49 PM

I accept the prophets interpretation.

-eric

←

Here's the problem with that:

First, it is hardly persausive to say that some unnamed and unquoted authority agrees with you. I wonder if you could provide us the name and exact quote please.

Second, you are probably confusing this verse with other scripture that cautions against relying on the arm of flesh as opposed to relying on the Lord. That's not this verse.

Third, you shouldn't pick one verse out of a book or chapter and interpret it in isolation. The first part of book of Romans illustrates God's grace and forgiveness, so much so that one might be fall into a trap of faulty thinking, namely, "Hey, the more I sin, the more God can forgive me. Cool. I can live any way I want to." But then in Chapter 6 Paul switches gears and reacts with outrage to that kind of liberal thinking. He then talks about Christian living and discusses why sin is so hard to overcome. Does God forgive everything, no matter how bad? What really happens when we become Christians - do we change or do we not?

If that is not enough Chapter 8 itself starts out addressing sin and sinful nature and sinful man. Chapter 8 is like a breath of fresh air. It is one of the most hopeful passages in the Bible telling us that sin can be overcome and that as the Spirit works along side us as we relate to God.

Some people don't always grasp the Elizabethan language of the KJV. It is sometimes useful to check modern langauge versions to gain understanding, besides which some modern versions are superior or at least more accurate translations. The NCV says: "If you use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit's help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." The NIV says: "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

In this case Omen's and Arthur's interpretation is correct.

←

I believe you are right..

[Guest arthur_lds]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 30 2005, 06:31 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Eric@Sep 30 2005, 08:12 PM

Romans 8:13  “those who live by the flesh fail.”

Actually, this verse simply means not to trust in the works of the flesh to save you. Apostle Paulk says in Philippians: "have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3-8]

Simply put....It means that we are not to trust in the flesh for salvation.

-eric

←

I appreciate all of you taking some time here.. and I am finding your reponses very enlightening...

So what you are saying here is that our physical works are not going to save us? Of course you are also saying within your thought that works like baptism etc... if done with spiritual confirmation and righteousness... will count... right?

I am still thinking that maybe this scripture is referring to something about our relying upon the Lord to have the strength to live righteously because on our own... we fail so often...

I was thinking of the power to endure given in Moroni... and that kind of thing... you know?

There is those scriptures like... all things are possible through Christ which strengthens me...

When I try and over come some fleshly habit ... like eating too much... when I do it by myself... I fail... but the one time I did it with the Lord as a complete partner... totally changing my mindset and being filled up with His love... being already full and given extra power to endure... I was successful...

Do you think this could apply to this scripture?

←

Yes it means that works of the flesh alone are not sufficient. It is only by the grace of the Son Jesus Christ that you are saved. Don't misinterpret that statement as meaning I believe in salvation by faith alone though. I don't.

I suggest for anyone confused about the relationship of Grace and Works and whether or not salvation is by Grace or by Works to read the Church Publication: "Salvation: By Grace or by Works?" by Gerald N. Lund.

Gerald N. Lund, disproves the "inadaquet" explanations like the explanation that Paul was only talking about the Mosaic Law in his denunciation of the law.

"For example, in warning the Ephesians about concluding that a man is saved by works, he makes no reference to the law: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9). So while this explanation is somewhat correct, it does nto go far enough." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: By Grace or by Works?).

He also disproves the attractive but "inadaquet" idea that Paul was speaking of the "unconditional" salvation which ensures our ressurrection from the fall of Adam. In this way, many people differentiate saved by grace and exalted by works. Pretty appealing isn't it?

But, "...there is a doctrinal error involved here. While the ressurrection of the dead is certaintly an integral part of the plan of salvation, and is unconditional and independent of men's works, the term salvation as used in the scriptures does not mean physical resurrection alone. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie has pointed out, salvation is synonymous with exaltation." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: by Grace or by Works.)

So how can we understand Paul's teachings on grace?

First off, we must have the right understanding of such enormous doctrines as Sin, Trangression, and the Law of Justice. We must fully understand the Fall of Man. We must also understand what Gerald N. Lund calls "The Fall of me." We must understand the need for grace.

We can inherit eternal life because of Christ's atonement. Because we all have sinned we need Jesus Christ, who was justified by works, to save us.

"He kept the laws of God perfectly! He avoided the debt altogether and qualified himself to return to the Father--the only one of mankind to do so. Secondly, he met the demands of the law for all of the rest of mankind. He himself owed no debt to the law, but he went before it and in essence said: "I am perfect and therefore I owe you no suffering. However, I will pay the debt for all mankind. I will undergo suffering that I might pay the price for every transgression and sin ever committed by any man." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: by grace or by works.)

But this sacrifice which pays the debt is not unconditional. The conditions are faith in Jesus Christ, then repentence, followed by baptism. If we truly move through those steps, not only physically, but mentally and spiritually, then we are ready for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Not the reward. We did not earn the Holy Ghost. We earn nothing. Everything is a gift through the grace of Jesus Christ.

"Now with all this in mind, remember that Paul said we are justified through and by faith (see Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:28), which is the first principle of the gospel. In other words, faith is the principle that activates the power of the Atonement in our lives, and we are put back into a proper relationship with God (justification) as faith activates that power." (Gerald N. Lund.)

He then goes on to give an analogy of this. It is such a great analogy and helped me understand the power of Christ's Grace so much better.

We are saved by Grace.

I'd like to conclude with this quote from the article:

"In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace--saved by Christ's love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ's love from Adam's fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace of gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him--but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: By Grace of by Works?"

I recommend for any serious student of the topics of grace, justice, and the plan of salvation that they read this marvelous and inspired article by Gerald N. Lund. "Salvation: By Grace or by Works."

Let the debate be over forever.

I am so thankful to Jesus Christ for his Atoning sacrifice and his grace which is the enabling power for me to be saved. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of Christ in these latter-days. I say this in the precious name of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, amen.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by arthur_lds+Oct 2 2005, 08:47 AM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 30 2005, 06:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Eric@Sep 30 2005, 08:12 PM

Romans 8:13  “those who live by the flesh fail.”

Actually, this verse simply means not to trust in the works of the flesh to save you. Apostle Paulk says in Philippians: "have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3-8]

Simply put....It means that we are not to trust in the flesh for salvation.

-eric

←

I appreciate all of you taking some time here.. and I am finding your reponses very enlightening...

So what you are saying here is that our physical works are not going to save us? Of course you are also saying within your thought that works like baptism etc... if done with spiritual confirmation and righteousness... will count... right?

I am still thinking that maybe this scripture is referring to something about our relying upon the Lord to have the strength to live righteously because on our own... we fail so often...

I was thinking of the power to endure given in Moroni... and that kind of thing... you know?

There is those scriptures like... all things are possible through Christ which strengthens me...

When I try and over come some fleshly habit ... like eating too much... when I do it by myself... I fail... but the one time I did it with the Lord as a complete partner... totally changing my mindset and being filled up with His love... being already full and given extra power to endure... I was successful...

Do you think this could apply to this scripture?

←

Yes it means that works of the flesh alone are not sufficient. It is only by the grace of the Son Jesus Christ that you are saved. Don't misinterpret that statement as meaning I believe in salvation by faith alone though. I don't.

I suggest for anyone confused about the relationship of Grace and Works and whether or not salvation is by Grace or by Works to read the Church Publication: "Salvation: By Grace or by Works?" by Gerald N. Lund.

Gerald N. Lund, disproves the "inadaquet" explanations like the explanation that Paul was only talking about the Mosaic Law in his denunciation of the law.

"For example, in warning the Ephesians about concluding that a man is saved by works, he makes no reference to the law: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9). So while this explanation is somewhat correct, it does nto go far enough." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: By Grace or by Works?).

He also disproves the attractive but "inadaquet" idea that Paul was speaking of the "unconditional" salvation which ensures our ressurrection from the fall of Adam. In this way, many people differentiate saved by grace and exalted by works. Pretty appealing isn't it?

But, "...there is a doctrinal error involved here. While the ressurrection of the dead is certaintly an integral part of the plan of salvation, and is unconditional and independent of men's works, the term salvation as used in the scriptures does not mean physical resurrection alone. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie has pointed out, salvation is synonymous with exaltation." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: by Grace or by Works.)

So how can we understand Paul's teachings on grace?

First off, we must have the right understanding of such enormous doctrines as Sin, Trangression, and the Law of Justice. We must fully understand the Fall of Man. We must also understand what Gerald N. Lund calls "The Fall of me." We must understand the need for grace.

We can inherit eternal life because of Christ's atonement. Because we all have sinned we need Jesus Christ, who was justified by works, to save us.

"He kept the laws of God perfectly! He avoided the debt altogether and qualified himself to return to the Father--the only one of mankind to do so. Secondly, he met the demands of the law for all of the rest of mankind. He himself owed no debt to the law, but he went before it and in essence said: "I am perfect and therefore I owe you no suffering. However, I will pay the debt for all mankind. I will undergo suffering that I might pay the price for every transgression and sin ever committed by any man." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: by grace or by works.)

But this sacrifice which pays the debt is not unconditional. The conditions are faith in Jesus Christ, then repentence, followed by baptism. If we truly move through those steps, not only physically, but mentally and spiritually, then we are ready for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Not the reward. We did not earn the Holy Ghost. We earn nothing. Everything is a gift through the grace of Jesus Christ.

"Now with all this in mind, remember that Paul said we are justified through and by faith (see Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:28), which is the first principle of the gospel. In other words, faith is the principle that activates the power of the Atonement in our lives, and we are put back into a proper relationship with God (justification) as faith activates that power." (Gerald N. Lund.)

He then goes on to give an analogy of this. It is such a great analogy and helped me understand the power of Christ's Grace so much better.

We are saved by Grace.

I'd like to conclude with this quote from the article:

"In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace--saved by Christ's love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ's love from Adam's fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace of gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him--but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins." (Gerald N. Lund. Salvation: By Grace of by Works?"

I recommend for any serious student of the topics of grace, justice, and the plan of salvation that they read this marvelous and inspired article by Gerald N. Lund. "Salvation: By Grace or by Works."

Let the debate be over forever.

I am so thankful to Jesus Christ for his Atoning sacrifice and his grace which is the enabling power for me to be saved. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of Christ in these latter-days. I say this in the precious name of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, amen.

←

I find the idea here in Mosiah concrete evidence of our dependance upon the Lord... yet we do have a work.... repenting is no easy thing... submitting... putting off the natural man... are all difficult works... at least in the beginning..

Mosiah 2: 21

21 I say unto you that if ye should aserve• him who has created you from the beginning, and is bpreserving• you from day to day, by lending you cbreath•, that ye may live and move and do according to your own dwill, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your ewhole souls yet ye would be funprofitable• servants.

We cannot make ourselves worthy.... any righteousness we may obtain comes from Christ.... we can only do the preparatory work to be open to reception of the Lord's righteousness or atonement...

[Guest Omen]

With all the discussion of this topic, I would like to add that in addition to an understanding that we have a responsibility to use our faith to carry out the will of the Lord.

When we take into consideration Matthew 25:31-40 we will realize that the reward we receive will be given us by the Grace of the Lord for our willingness to do His will. We cannot hope to receive that Grace if we do not enlarge our faith by following the guidance we recieve to do the things we are commanded. We can have all the faith in the world and yet lose exaultation because we didn't exercise that faith by doing the things the Lord requires of us.

We need to keep in mind these words we learn in Matthew:

"Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make the ruler over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matthew 25:23 and "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40.

Our salvation comes only from the application of an earnest, living faith that prompts us to do the will of the Lord. Then and only then will the grace of the Lord make up for all the shortcomings that we have that would, if it weren't for his grace and mercy, keep us from receiving our exaultation.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Omen@Oct 2 2005, 09:43 AM

With all the discussion of this topic, I would like to add that in addition to an understanding that we have a responsibility to use our faith to carry out the will of the Lord.

When we take into consideration Matthew 25:31-40 we will realize that the reward we receive will be given us by the Grace of the Lord for our willingness to do His will.  We cannot hope to receive that Grace if we do not enlarge our faith by following the guidance we recieve to do the things we are commanded.  We can have all the faith in the world and yet lose exaultation because we didn't exercise that faith by doing the things the Lord requires of us. 

We need to keep in mind these words we learn in Matthew:

"Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make the ruler over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matthew 25:23 and "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40.

Our salvation comes only from the application of an earnest, living faith that prompts us to do the will of the Lord.  Then and only then will the grace of the Lord make up for all the shortcomings that we have that would, if it weren't for his grace and mercy, keep us from receiving our exaultation.

←

AMEN!

[Eric]

Originally posted by Snow+Sep 30 2005, 10:29 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Eric@Sep 30 2005, 06:49 PM

I accept the prophets interpretation.

-eric

←

Here's the problem with that:

First, it is hardly persausive to say that some unnamed and unquoted authority agrees with you. I wonder if you could provide us the name and exact quote please.

Second, you are probably confusing this verse with other scripture that cautions against relying on the arm of flesh as opposed to relying on the Lord. That's not this verse.

Third, you shouldn't pick one verse out of a book or chapter and interpret it in isolation. The first part of book of Romans illustrates God's grace and forgiveness, so much so that one might be fall into a trap of faulty thinking, namely, "Hey, the more I sin, the more God can forgive me. Cool. I can live any way I want to." But then in Chapter 6 Paul switches gears and reacts with outrage to that kind of liberal thinking. He then talks about Christian living and discusses why sin is so hard to overcome. Does God forgive everything, no matter how bad? What really happens when we become Christians - do we change or do we not?

If that is not enough Chapter 8 itself starts out addressing sin and sinful nature and sinful man. Chapter 8 is like a breath of fresh air. It is one of the most hopeful passages in the Bible telling us that sin can be overcome and that as the Spirit works along side us as we relate to God.

Some people don't always grasp the Elizabethan language of the KJV. It is sometimes useful to check modern langauge versions to gain understanding, besides which some modern versions are superior or at least more accurate translations. The NCV says: "If you use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit's help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." The NIV says: "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

In this case Omen's and Arthur's interpretation is correct.

←

[Snow]

Eric,

Uh, did you have a comment to make or did you mean to simply quote my post?