The Goal Of Our Faith

[Red]

I thought I would start another one, if there are no objections.

What Salvation are Mormons looking for?

and what Salvation are traditional Christians looking for?

Are either actually attainable?

and what would be the result of attaining it?

ready....GO!

[Eric]

Well, you ask what salvation Mormons are looking for. Let us first build a foundation regarding how Mormons understand......

Belief, Faith, and Knowledge

The words, Belief, Faith, and Knowledge have different meanings. The understanding of these terms will aid you in proper Christian understanding. Let us take a look at the word, "belief". Belief basicaly means an intellectual assent. Like the belief of existance. One may look at a chair and say I believe that the chair is there, right in front of me.

Just because one believes that the chair is in front of him does not mean that one has faith to sit in it. It takes faith to sit down in it. Thus, faith implies confidence and conviction. Faith is belief in action.

People exercise different degrees of faith in different objects. Some believe in God but do not put faith in God. They may put more faith in their car than they do in God. The foundation of faith is based on knowledge.

Knowledge is important. We need proper knowledge in order to properly function. This is why our theology as Christians must be correct. Accurate knowledge produces true belief and true belief produces marvelous faith, action!

True faith will spring from trustworthy evidence. It will be rightly interpreted by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our faith gives us the power of assurance under all circumstances. This thus becomes the impelling force by which we struggle to mature in our relationship with Heavenly Father. When we exercise true faith it is pleasing to God. With full confidence we can face the challenges of life.

We must understand that proper belief, faith, and knowledge are essential to true salvation and sustaining a living and growing relationship with God. True faith, active faith, is essential to salvation. True faith is a Divine Gift of God. True faith works! Good works are essential to true Christianity. Faith without works is dead!

A faith that works is a faith that has works. Belief must be understood through proper knowledge. The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are; Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; Repentance; Baptism; and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Christians must have such a feeling of trust in God that it effects the whole of their lives. Faith may at first only manifest itself as little more than a feeble belief but true faith based on accurate knowledge will become the driving force of the Christians life.

-By Eric W. King

visit me at: http://czuzone.teach-nology.com

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 3 2005, 01:00 AM

I thought I would start another one, if there are no objections.

What Salvation are Mormons looking for?

and what Salvation are traditional Christians looking for?

Are either actually attainable?

and what would be the result of attaining it?

ready....GO! 

←

Well that's certainly an involved question Red. :) Eric has given a fine response above. I'll add that the word salvation can actually have different meanings to LDS depending on the context.

In one sense it means freedom from sin and sin's consequences...salvation from "hell" or separation from God.

In another sense salvation means exaltation in God's presence.

In our book of scripture called the Doctrine & Covenants (D&C for short), section 6 verse 13 we read:

"If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D&C 6:13)

And later we read:

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God." (D&C 14:7)

What is eternal life?

"And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;" (D&C 29:27)

Is eternal life simply living forever? We believe not, as this scripture shows a difference between immortality (living forever) and eternal life (living forever in God's presence):

"And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;" (D&C 29:43)

This often leads to confusion (understandably) so the rule is look at context to see what is meant by salvation or eternal life. However, on the whole, "eternal life" as a phrase refers most of the time in LDS belief to being granted a place of glory on God's right hand forever to dwell with him in joy and peace in the highest degree of glory.

In LDS view, there are three general "degrees" of glory that a soul can attain to after the resurrection, based on their relationship with Christ and their obedience to the gospel and acceptance of him. In the highest degree we arrive at the same glory that God and Christ have.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3:21)

In Romans 8:16-17, Paul teaches that we are children of God, and so we are heirs of his glory, joint-heirs with Christ in fact, capable of inheriting all that God has, depending on our submission and obedience to Him.

In one sense, then, salvation without exaltation is damnation. By damnation I mean a halt on all personal progress, just as a damn halts the progress of a stream or river. The LDS teaching is that the only kingdom or degree of glory where perpetual progress is made is in the highest one, the Celestial Kingdom, so any other destination is limiting in that sense.

So the effect is a fulness of joy, being perfected (or made whole, having all characteristics and attributes that our Savior has as a perfect being), and being with family and friends forever.

Yes, I believe it is attainable, and that's an incredibly encouraging thing to me! :)

[Ray]

Since you've already received two wonderful answers inluding textbook references and explanations, I'll give my answer in words that hit home with me.

I’m looking for the type of “salvation” that would allow me the freedom to live and progress eternally among the best class of citizens in the universe:

Free from death and disease and any other type of corruption,

Free from any limit to enjoy all the happiness that can be enjoyed,

Free to enjoy building a house using all the best of materials that are available,

Free to enjoy building a home using all the best of information that is available,

Free to enjoy continuing to live with my wife,

Free to enjoy continuing to raise children with my wife,

Free to enjoy continuing to teach our children about how to attain happiness,

Free to enjoy seeing our children enjoying their lives as we enjoy ours, and

Free to enjoy the association of other people who also enjoy life as we do.

If I had to live my life in any other way, while knowing there was a better way to live, I would not consider myself to have achieved salvation, because I would not feel free to enjoy my life in the best way I knew was available.

And Yes, this type of salvation is attainable if we will do all that we can to receive knowledge and mercy and wisdom from our Father in heaven through our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Wow ... this was a great thread... thanks guys for the great answers...

[Red]

Thank you all for your replies,

You probably answer this stuff time and a gain and are going out of your way even now.

So why would I reject the hope you hold to?

I have studied it for some time now. But first I'll tell you guys about the hope I have.

I was born a sinner "behold I was concieved in sin," I can do good things if I want but my natural inclination is to sin, and you are the same "all sin and fall short of the glory." I inhereitted this from Adam--God even imputes his sin onto me "for in Adam all die." God litterally made me an object of His wrath from the day I was born, and if He wove me in my mothers womb I was born dead, separated from God and a slave to sin.

So why would God do such an unfair thing to me? It is out of His mercy on me! He caused us all to die in Adam so that we might be redeemed in Christ. Adam's sin is imputed on us by birth so that by belief in Christ we can be imputed with His righteousness. "Abraham believed God and it was creditted (or imputed) to Him as righteousness."

So based on what Christ did, not me, I will be with my Father for the rest of Eternity. It says I'll serve Him, I don't know what my job will be, but in the new heaven and new earth I'm sure even the janitor's duties will rock! What will my rewards for my good deeds of faith be? I don't care, Revelation says I'll caste it all back at His feet anyway, because afterall, its the thought that counts! I wait to hear "well done good and faithful servant," and to find out what happened to the people I touched like I kid waiting for Christmas! Have you ever read the Chronicles of Narnia? C.S. Lewis makes a good point at the end of it I think, when He says that all the adventures up till then were only the title page to the real story. Either way I will be with my Abba, and that's all that matters.

But here is what I know about the goal of mormonism (correct me if I misrepresent you guys):

If Mormonism is true, then...

God was once a man as the Prophet Joseph Smith said. He attained Celestial glory and begat all of us as spirit children. Then Satan rebelled, which was inevitable and necessary because Brigham Young taght that "every world has a tempter."

Then Adam and Eve were given bodies and sinned, which was also necesary as Brigham Young taught, also in Nephi "man fell that they might have joy" (paraphrase of course and I can't track down whether it's in 1,2,3, or 4), and also in the book of Moses we find that we could have never produced offspring if not for the fall. Sin (the fall, the trespass) was necessary.

So sin and death continued on this world, as all other worlds so that both might be conquered (on this world). Christ accomplished this and gained a resurrection for all mankind. After that, our works determine what kind of salvation we attain: telestial kingdom with the ministration of angels, terrestrial with Jesus at times, and the celestial with both Father and Son.

And if you exceed all the others in righteousness you will go on to become a God of your own world and populate it with countless children. But the cycle repeats again doesn't it?

You're children will rebel, at least one--the tempter, and you will have to condemn them as sons of perdition. Many others will reject you and harm others because they hate you. You will have to allow one of your own Sons to die as a sacrifice, though he will rise, do you still choose this pain? And many others who try to do good things but become decieved will still find themselves in a paradise without you, who they truly yearned for you in the first place.

I know that a paradise without my Abba would be worse than hell. At least in hell I would know I was condemned justly and/or be absorbed in thoughts of my pain. I would not have time to contemplate the Father who wouldn't let me be with Him because I wasn't good enough.

A handful of your children will become Gods themselves to repeat the cycle. Yes, you will be growing in glory and in love and fellowship with God, but is it worth the sin, suffering and death? Christ died "for the joy that was set before Him," but what real joy or meaning is there in this? The end result is more death on more worlds, and if Christ died so that more people could become Gods and create worlds with more sin on them then Jesus is a murderer. If you seek to attian Celestial glory and Godhood then you are a murderer.

But Jesus Christ is not a murderer, and you don't want to be one. I plead with you in all sincerity to reject Mormonism. I don't want to the leave you with just this, please respond. There is a hope greater than you know.

God Bless,

Red

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Good grief... have you ever been down the darkest road I have ever seen.

[begood2]

Eric, AF, and Ray,

I really enjoyed reading your answers. :)

Eric ... I like your website also!

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 8 2005, 01:22 AM

If you seek to attian Celestial glory and Godhood then you are a murderer.

But Jesus Christ is not a murderer, and you don't want to be one.  I plead with you in all sincerity to reject Mormonism.  I don't want to the leave you with just this, please respond.  There is a hope greater than you know. 

God Bless,

Red

←

First things first Red...for disagreeing without being hateful I thank you. At least, I couldn't detect any hate in your words. There are a few errors in your descriptions however that I'd like to address.

I couldn't help but notice something Red...in your post you urge "us" (whoever that is, maybe all of us who are LDS?) to "reject Mormonism." Your reasoning is that exaltation in God's presence involves those exalted ruling their own worlds and necessitating the rise of other "satans" and other saviors or "christs."

That is not official LDS doctrine. It smacks of many anti-LDS pamphlets/books/videos I've seen before, and is wholly untrue. If you read through our official canon of scripture and our articles of faith, you will not find anywhere the statement: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all people who are good enough will become gods, and ordain their own christs to save their own worlds."

It's simply not there, because it's not official LDS doctrine. You did a good job of focusing on your understanding of the "end" or "salvation" sought by LDS members, but you entirely neglected what we believe we must do to return to God. The last time I checked, the LDS church teaches its members only the most ennobling and uplifting system of salvation I've ever studied or examined. How are chastity, honesty, physical health, service to and love of others, and self-sacrifice "damning" things, things calculated to produce "murderers?"

This misunderstanding of LDS doctrine has been around since day one, so to speak, and no doubt will continue. But for anyone reading this thread who is not LDS or not clear on what official LDS teachings are, or are just on the fence, understand the tactic being used (and I don't accuse you of being intentionally deceptive, Red). There is no attempt to illustrate the positive impact the LDS teachings have on the lives of its members and even non-members.

So Red, if you disagree with LDS soteriology and theology, that's your prerogative. If I read right, you seem sincere and so that at least is a positive. But again, your conclusions are to me unfounded since the "salvation" you described complete with redundant christs and satans and "murderers" is NOT official LDS doctrine. It may be interesting to speculate about, but it's not our belief.

More importantly, no LDS leader anywhere EVER taught that a person must believe those things before they can return to live with God.

We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. We believe we can become better, brighter, happier beings than we are now through Christ's life-altering grace and mercy. We can become capable of experiencing a fulness of joy as our Father in Heaven and Savior do.

But Red, I'd seriously suggest you read more of the LDS official canon of scripture if you'd really like to penetrate the surface and grasp what it is many of us cherish and hope for. It IS a hope brighter than I comprehend because it's an infinite hope and I'm a finite being...but I know this...I want to be there when it blossoms inside and Christ raises me up to dwell in light and love forever. May Christ's grace walk beside, work within, and go before us daily.

[Guest mtagain]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 8 2005, 04:49 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Red@Oct 8 2005, 01:22 AM

If you seek to attian Celestial glory and Godhood then you are a murderer.

But Jesus Christ is not a murderer, and you don't want to be one.  I plead with you in all sincerity to reject Mormonism.  I don't want to the leave you with just this, please respond.  There is a hope greater than you know. 

God Bless,

Red

←

First things first Red...for disagreeing without being hateful I thank you. At least, I couldn't detect any hate in your words. There are a few errors in your descriptions however that I'd like to address.

I couldn't help but notice something Red...in your post you urge "us" (whoever that is, maybe all of us who are LDS?) to "reject Mormonism." Your reasoning is that exaltation in God's presence involves those exalted ruling their own worlds and necessitating the rise of other "satans" and other saviors or "christs."

That is not official LDS doctrine. It smacks of many anti-LDS pamphlets/books/videos I've seen before, and is wholly untrue. If you read through our official canon of scripture and our articles of faith, you will not find anywhere the statement: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all people who are good enough will become gods, and ordain their own christs to save their own worlds."

It's simply not there, because it's not official LDS doctrine. You did a good job of focusing on your understanding of the "end" or "salvation" sought by LDS members, but you entirely neglected what we believe we must do to return to God. The last time I checked, the LDS church teaches its members only the most ennobling and uplifting system of salvation I've ever studied or examined. How are chastity, honesty, physical health, service to and love of others, and self-sacrifice "damning" things, things calculated to produce "murderers?"

This misunderstanding of LDS doctrine has been around since day one, so to speak, and no doubt will continue. But for anyone reading this thread who is not LDS or not clear on what official LDS teachings are, or are just on the fence, understand the tactic being used (and I don't accuse you of being intentionally deceptive, Red). There is no attempt to illustrate the positive impact the LDS teachings have on the lives of its members and even non-members.

So Red, if you disagree with LDS soteriology and theology, that's your prerogative. If I read right, you seem sincere and so that at least is a positive. But again, your conclusions are to me unfounded since the "salvation" you described complete with redundant christs and satans and "murderers" is NOT official LDS doctrine. It may be interesting to speculate about, but it's not our belief.

More importantly, no LDS leader anywhere EVER taught that a person must believe those things before they can return to live with God.

We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. We believe we can become better, brighter, happier beings than we are now through Christ's life-altering grace and mercy. We can become capable of experiencing a fulness of joy as our Father in Heaven and Savior do.

But Red, I'd seriously suggest you read more of the LDS official canon of scripture if you'd really like to penetrate the surface and grasp what it is many of us cherish and hope for. It IS a hope brighter than I comprehend because it's an infinite hope and I'm a finite being...but I know this...I want to be there when it blossoms inside and Christ raises me up to dwell in light and love forever. May Christ's grace walk beside, work within, and go before us daily.

←

I am new to the site and felt compelled to comment that I believe your response is most correct and gently put forward. Thank you

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 7 2005, 10:22 PM

And if you exceed all the others in righteousness you will go on to become a God of your own world and populate it with countless children.  But the cycle repeats again doesn't it?

You're children will rebel, at least one--the tempter, and you will have to condemn them as sons of perdition.  Many others will reject you and harm others because they hate you.  You will have to allow one of your own Sons to die as a sacrifice, though he will rise, do you still choose this pain?  And many others who try to do good things but become decieved will still find themselves in a paradise without you, who they truly yearned for you in the first place...

A handful of your children will become Gods themselves to repeat the cycle.  Yes, you will be growing in glory and in love and fellowship with God,  but is it worth the sin, suffering and death?  Christ died "for the joy that was set before Him," but what real joy or meaning is there in this?  The end result is more death on more worlds, and if Christ died so that more people could become Gods and create worlds with more sin on them then Jesus is a murderer.  If you seek to attian Celestial glory and Godhood then you are a murderer.

But Jesus Christ is not a murderer, and you don't want to be one.  I plead with you in all sincerity to reject Mormonism.  I don't want to the leave you with just this, please respond.  There is a hope greater than you know. 

God Bless,

Red

←

Do you just make this stuff up or did it come to you in a vision.

See - here's the problem. When you misstate another's religious beliefs and throw in some squirrely ideas, draw some illogical inferences and reach absurd conclusions - you are only offering commentary on your own flawed beliefs and process - not offering any insight to what that other's religion really is or really teaches.

Besides which - calling us murders is idiotic and stupid. But I like you anyway. Have your people call my people and if you promise not to make stuff up - we'll do lunch.

[Snow]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 8 2005, 12:49 AM

First things first Red...for disagreeing without being hateful I thank you. At least, I couldn't detect any hate in your words.

←

Huh? Well let me help. This is what Red said: "If you seek to attian Celestial glory and Godhood then you are a murderer."

Do you think that Red calls you a murder because he thinks you are actually are a murderer? No? Well then do you think that Red calls you a murderer because he loves you? No AK - he calls you a murderer because he disrepects you and your beliefs and your faith and seeks to denigrate what you stand for. In short - he's hateful.

I thought you noticed since you quoted his disgust for you in your post above.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Besides which - calling us murders is idiotic and stupid. But I like you anyway. Have your people call my people and if you promise not to make stuff up - we'll do lunch.

I love it

[Laureltree]

I like the questions in the thread, Ray I would read a little more on mormonism....in a few areas. ApostleKnight...Very nicely stated and thank you for correcting the mistake, without rudely correcting the person. I know Im living my life for the lord...I'm not a murder and neither is he......and neither are mormons....and that I'm grateful for.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 8 2005, 01:36 PM

Do you think that Red calls you a murder because he thinks you are actually are a murderer? No? Well then do you think that Red calls you a murderer because he loves you? No AK - he calls you a murderer because he disrepects you and your beliefs and your faith and seeks to denigrate what you stand for. In short - he's hateful.

I thought you noticed since you quoted his disgust for you in your post above.

←

Disgust = hate? Not necessarily. In fact, the point of his post seemed to be, "Hey, I think you guys might be headed somewhere bad, turn back or I think you might end up miserable."

As misplaced as his concern was, it was obviously not the standard Soviet-conveyor belt "Mormons are bad, damn them all to hell anyway, there's no reclaiming them" molded objection. Of course I feel Red was mistaken on all key points and his position indefensibile...but I don't really think he hates me, at any rate. Correct me if I'm wrong, Red...

[Snow]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 9 2005, 01:20 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Oct 8 2005, 01:36 PM

Do you think that Red calls you a murder because he thinks you are actually are a murderer? No? Well then do you think that Red calls you a murderer because he loves you? No AK - he calls you a murderer because he disrepects you and your beliefs and your faith and seeks to denigrate what you stand for. In short - he's hateful.

I thought you noticed since you quoted his disgust for you in your post above.

←

Disgust = hate? Not necessarily. In fact, the point of his post seemed to be, "Hey, I think you guys might be headed somewhere bad, turn back or I think you might end up miserable."

As misplaced as his concern was, it was obviously not the standard Soviet-conveyor belt "Mormons are bad, damn them all to hell anyway, there's no reclaiming them" molded objection. Of course I feel Red was mistaken on all key points and his position indefensibile...but I don't really think he hates me, at any rate. Correct me if I'm wrong, Red...

←

I suspect that Red is more of a hit and run troll than a real poster who has any substance to discuss. Throw up a little resistance to his jabs and h'e’ll probably bolt. Sometimes I'm wrong about these things, see below, but not usually.

Yeah, okay, Red doesn't hate you specifically and his rhetoric is not dripping with malice, but he comes from a very common perspective, he's anti-Mormon though he is probably anti-a-lot-of-things that are outside his narrow understanding of religion; probably not because he truly thinks Mormons are evil but because he or more generally the religious convention from which he hails, is immature in it's faith and is still at the point he/it/they can't stand on their own beliefs and faith but require an "other" to establish their identity. That is, remember from Church history, when it was us Mormons versus everybody else. We were good and they were all apostate. Sure we were persecuted unfairly but we controlled our own rhetoric and it demeaned any religious belief but our own. Generally we didn't pick out specific congregations and say that all you Presbyters are going to hell but we did think that anybody not with us was against us, apostate and a daughter of the great whore of Babylon.

You just don't hear that kind of talk these days that used to be so common. Why? Is it no longer true? The reason we don’t it is because Mormons are mature in their beliefs. It's what we believe that gives us worth and value. We don't need to establish our worth versus someone else, an "other."

The Reds of the world have value only so far as they can put some other religion down and say 'me (my religious beliefs) good; you bad.' Undoubtedly he feels the same why about Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Days and probably the Catholics although his sexual hang-ups are so screwy I wonder if might even be kind of an evangelical Catholic underneath it all, though probably not.

About his post itself... it’s hard to imagine a more jumbled plate of nonsense, misstatement and illogic, starting with his belief that because he parents gave birth to him out of wedlock that he was somehow conceived in sin that that sin imputes to him and God’s wrath is turned against him - and not his parents who couldn’t wait to tie the know before jumping in the sack. That’s just plain weird thinking and it’s no longer he needs to find someone worse than himself to put down and thus build himself up.

There isn’t a single point in his post that isn’t squirrely but besides his sex hang-ups, the biggest problem is this: God is the Creator. God, in his view, created everything including sin and including Satan, ergo it is God who is responsible for Satan’s lot in life. Yet because we Mormons believe in exaltation, we, not the author of exaltation are murderers. Go figure.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 9 2005, 12:48 PM

There isn’t a single point in his post that isn’t squirrely but besides his sex hang-ups, the biggest problem is this: God is the Creator. God, in his view, created everything including sin and including Satan, ergo it is God who is responsible for Satan’s lot in life. Yet because we Mormons believe in exaltation, we, not the author of exaltation are murderers. Go figure.

←

Well said. I have seen his type of objections before, and it is true that it's usually from a viewpoint whose only foundation is the destruction of someone else's. Oh well, what're ya gonna do, right? :)

[Red]

No, I'm not going for a hit and run here. It is my prayer to do some real ministry on this site if God wills. Maybe He'll use me, maybe He won't, perhaps He already has.

Snow: be ashamed. My words: "I was concieved in sin" were from Psalm 51:

"1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Psalms 51:1-10 (KJV)

Am I still a ######? David sure wasn't, so this "concieved in sin" concept has nothing to do with fornication. David was human just like us, so if he was concieved in sin then so were we:

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Cor 5:14-15 (KJV)

We are born spiritually dead, separated from God, naturally sinful. And again this was for our own good:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Cor 15:22-23 (KJV)

If the sin of one man could make us all dead, then the obedience of one man could make us all alive. But there is no man who could do that:

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mark 10:18 (KJV)

If Jesus is not God (I don't mean in title, but in nature, essence or specific being as the passage seems to imply) then He is not good. And if he is not good then He is no good for your salvation (of any degree).

Do I consider you to be murders? No, I said you weren't, and I believe you are not because I believe Mormonism is false. But if it is true you will have a serious moral problem and I will be content with my lesser glory, in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom, knowing that I did nothing to promote a system which inflicted more sin and death on more worlds. I have done my share of reading, the fact that you guys have denied to even believe the doctrine of becoming Gods of your own worlds is disturbing to me. I don't want to think you are hiding things and I don't want to tell you what you believe.

Like I said I do not want to do a hit and run on you guys, I have a heart to minister to Mormons, what can I say. However, over here at San Diego Christian College the homework for my Bible major can have a funny way of adding up (I'm taking 15 units, I hope you'll understand). That, and I like the replies to accumulate and to digest them before I say my peace.

Apostleknight: I am relieved to hear that there is no malice in my tone--that used to be such a problem for me, but now at least I can sound how I feel. However, you keep saying my reasoning is illogical--how so? Please elaborate so that I can better explain myself. Thank-you

God bless,

Red

[Red]

P.S.

The site editted my words a little,

####### = illigitamate child, and we all know the word for that.

Strange though, I read another post on here where someone said other things. . . go figure, nothing works perfectly.

[Red]

About God being the author of sin:

I'll touch on this real quick. In a universe where God litterally made everything and predestined everything, He does not have to the author of sin.

Did He see it coming? Of course, so He included it into His plan, to bring good out of it and show to be utterly futile--bringing glory to Himself, which is always a good thing for those who love Him.

Instead He is the author of choice, and I'm sure you'll agree with that. There can be no love without choice to not love (though who would want to stop loving?), no worship without the option to be silent (though who would want to stop singing?), and there can be no obedience without the option to disobey (though who would want to stop being lead by the LORD?). You see, God gives us the choice to love Him and also gives us no reason not to.

Satan had a choice. He could use his glory to love, worship and obey God or use it as an excuse to rebel:

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Ezek 28:17 (KJV)

Since the conceqence for sin was (or will be) so severe for him, that tells me Satan was meant to use his glory for good and not to take good and make evil. Satan perverts good to make evil, but God tekes the evil to make good again. Evil cannot exist on in an dof itself, it is a perversion. So God is not the author of sin or evil, though He is soveriegn and will take satans toys away from him to show evil as futile and even use it for good.

God gave Adam and Eve the same kind of choice with the two trees. He was dead seriouse when He told them not to eat from the tree, and if God is a God who rewards obedience and punishes rebellion (Isaiah 1:18-20), then he punished them for their disobedience. Hence world suffering, its like God is saying, "do you really want to try this without me?"

You see, if He punishes sin then it didn't need to happen. Do parents hope their children will sin in order so that they'll learn? No! We don't need to sin to know that it's bad. God does not need to be the author of sin.

I'll check back in a few days!

[Guest Member_Deleted]

I believe there are different kinds of sin and therefore different conotations to the word.

You use them all as one. Just like the word love in the bible is used for the many different kinds of love... the word sin is used as one yet there are several...

Brotherly love is not the same thing as romantic love and neither of these is like God's love.

So it is with sin. It is written that after one is born again... he cannot sin. Yet he can do wrong. Because at this spiritual level... there is no more sin... only mistakes.. because of misjudgment etc...

Sin is a consequence... a result of disobedience. Disobedience requires a foreknowledge and desire to go against God.

God didn't disobey therefore He couldn't author sin or bring about the result of sin.

God is only the author of agency which requires a choice between two things.

They could be two evils .. lesser and greater... or between two righteous things... lesser and greater.. or between total opposites... good and evil.

But a choice is the only thing that allows us to exist. One who has no choice doesn't really exist.

So... if God, by allowing us agency... authored anything... it is existence... not sin.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 10 2005, 07:29 PM

No, I'm not going for a hit and run here.  It is my prayer to do some real ministry on this site if God wills.  Maybe He'll use me, maybe He won't, perhaps He already has.

Snow: be ashamed.  My words: "I was concieved in sin" were from Psalm 51:

←

What on earth should I be ashamed of? They were your words regardless or who thought of them first. So if you weren't refering to sex when you said that you were conceived, what on earth could you have been talking about. Look up the word. We all know what it means. If you say that is not what you meant, okay, I believe you but don't blame me for speaking English.

We, in our tradition, believe that just as Adam was responsible for his own transgressions, so too your parent are responsible for theirs and you for yours. A newborn child is guiltless. Being born prone to sin is different from being born in sin.

Do I consider you to be murders?  No, I said you weren't, and I believe you are not because I believe Mormonism is false.  But if it is true you will have a serious moral problem and I will be content with my lesser glory, in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom, knowing that I did nothing to promote a system which inflicted more sin and death on more worlds.

However, you keep saying my reasoning is illogical--how so?

Hey - you're the college boy but if you insist, I explain the misstatements in your posts.

First, you say that if Mormonism is true that Mormons will have a serious moral issue. Well, all men sin and so have moral issues but you mean to say that Mormons, by virtue of Mormonism being true, will have serious moral issues as a result of following and adhereing to what we correctly (for the sake of your point) believe is God's will. Frankly I don't believe you can't see the problem with that but if we were to do God's will and God is good then what we do in following God's will would be good. For your illogic to be logical God would have to be something other than good.

Second, you say that if Mormonism were true, you would be content to hang in the terrestial or telestial kingdom but that contradicts your previous statement that to be in paradise without your Abba would be hell. So which is it? Do you want to be in God's presence or do you want to be in hell?

Next, you say that if God or a god were to go to other worlds and create a system whereby there was a cycle of sin and hell and the need for a savior then that would be the moral equivalent of murder and the God or god in question would be a murderer. Oh, hello! Who created this earth with sin and death and Satan and hell and innocent suffering and evil and the need for a Saviour? Does God not have moral responsibility for his own actions? And if he were to set up a system where other's did the same, would he still not have been the author of it all and therefore responsible. This one is not that tough Red.

I have done my share of reading, the fact that you guys have denied to even believe the doctrine of becoming Gods of your own worlds is disturbing to me.  I don't want to think you are hiding things and I don't want to tell you what you believe.

If I had to guess at what you meant to say (but didn't) it would be that you, Red, are disturbed that I/we deny our own belief that we good Mormons will become Gods of our own worlds and that if we do deny such beliefs, we are hiding things.

Is that what you meant to say?

Just to keep the conversation going, lets just say that's what you meant. Again, your logic is sorely lacking. How on earth would you know what I/we believe unless I tell you what I believe. Because what I said were my beliefs didn't match what you wanted me/we to believe you turn around and accuse us of hiding something. Say Red - can you see the problem with that? You told us in your posts that believe such and such. How bout if I turn around and accuse you of lying about what your really believe? Does that make sense? Er - no, it does not.

Maybe what you meant, had you thought this through clearly, is that my beliefs or AKnight's beliefs don't match official LDS doctrine and that's a bad thing. But alas - that too is wrong because I, as a Mormon, am not required to believe any particular doctrine about the afterlife in order to be Mormon.

Or maybe, and this is probably it, you meant to say that you, Red, understand Mormon doctrine and to the extent that AKnight or I or anybody else disagrees with you, then we are wrong about Mormon doctrine. Okay - here's my gift to you... take three guesses why that is a stupid idea... go on, I'll wait.

What? No guesses? And you a college boy and all...

Okay - I'll help you out. AKnight was right and you are wrong. We don't know much about exaltation - what you might call deification, but what we do know is that your idea that deified Mormons will be (so we believe) Gods of their own worlds is not LDS doctrine. How do we know that? We checked Red. You can check to. Do you know where or how to check? Let me help - I want to be a helper - Our canonical beliefs can be found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price, which by common consent, all are the normative and approved sources of official LDS doctrine. Go ahead and check yourself - our beliefs about deification are found in the Bible (Gen, Rom, Heb, Acts, Rev, Jn, 2 Cor, 2 Pet, Phil, primarily) and Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 132. Go ahead and check yourself - again, I'll wait. I'm am certain that you could find some Mormons who speculate or believe that exaltation will entail running their own worlds but those beliefs don't take precedence over our canon just as, say, John Wesley's interpretations and speculations don't take precedence over the Bible.

Anyway - I'm glad you came back and posted.

Sometime tell us more about your Bible college - (I'm serious here - not joking) - I am interested.

[Red]

Snow,

You’re right, I shouldn’t have assumed you’d pick up on the quote from Psalm 51, the was my fault for not specifying, I’m sorry. However, reread your posts, based on a misunderstanding or not, you crossed the line. Is that kind of language God honoring in any sense? Imagine if I actually was someone carrying around that kind of scar! You failed to display the fruit of the fruit of the spirit. But enough of that, back to some good food…

Snow: “First, you say that if Mormonism is true that Mormons will have a serious moral issue. Well, all men sin and so have moral issues but you mean to say that Mormons, by virtue of Mormonism being true, will have serious moral issues as a result of following and adhereing to what we correctly (for the sake of your point) believe is God's will. Frankly I don't believe you can't see the problem with that but if we were to do God's will and God is good then what we do in following God's will would be good. For your illogic to be logical God would have to be something other than good.”

That is exactly my point. The god who you pray to and follow is not good, and he sure is not mine. I know my Sheppard, and He is good. If your god is not good then he either does not exist or is a fallen angel (and is lying about his origin). I lean towards the latter out of first hand experience. I know the spiritual power and oppression in your church, I have faced it twice before and my Lord has brought me through it and proved Himself stronger. That’s my testimony, I’ll elaborate if you want, but for now I’ll leave it at that.

Now if Mormonism is true (remember, remember, remember: I separate the “ism” from the “Mormon”) Then God certainly is not good. He would be a product of a sinful system starting as a man and a participant by creating another world where sin is necessary for having seed and exaltation. If sin is necessary for that, then we will always be under the power of sin, “redeemed” or not, if sin is simply a necessary part of the system.

However, the God I know never made sin as a necessity—He never made sin at all, it is a perversion of the freedom which He gave us—an abuse if you will. We at least can agree on that can’t we? So the God I know remains absolutely good, the author of existence, freedom/choice, love, you name it—all that is good. Evil is the perversion of good, but God is in the business of redeeming it all. Something else I’m sure we can agree on is that when God told Adam and Eve (before the fall) to "Be fruitful and multiply,” (Gen 1:28) that he actually meant it—they were capable of doing so in every capacity. There is no hint at all that sin ought to occur—everything was good (v31)!

[Red]

Snow: “Second, you say that if Mormonism were true, you would be content to hang in the terrestial or telestial kingdom but that contradicts your previous statement that to be in paradise without your Abba would be hell. So which is it? Do you want to be in God's presence or do you want to be in hell?”

Both. In two different contexts of course. If in one sense I strived to know the God I loved and yet I found myself shunned from his presence based on the fact that I never had a temple endowment or was generally “deceived by men” and that because of my failures my Abba could not be seen with me, then yes, any paradise would be hell. Imagine if a boy struck out in his baseball game, or even got mad and cursed, or worse yet beat up another kid, what kind of a father would let that boy eat a wonderful homemade meal for dinner, but says, “I’ll give you all this but I won’t eat with you.” The boy would be crushed! No real major punishment, but horrible rejection! What kind of a father would do such a thing—none that you know. Instead, a good father would give His son a good spanking, have a talk and a cry, then eat that dinner together in joy. Maybe a playful little food fight might ensure? So in that sense, the terrestrial, or telestial kingdom would be like hell to me, having paradise because I was rejected, and I would imagine it would be even worse for the Mormon who “was not valiant in the testimony.”

Instead I have the assurance that I will be with my Father no matter what I do because Christ pleads my case every day. You do not have this hope as solidly as that. You may have done all the necessary temple ordinances, maybe even celestial marriage, but if I’m not mistaken you could still fall short of celestial glory if you failed morally in some way. No specific LDS scripture comes to mind on this point but I do know that, “to obey is better than sacrifice,” (1 Sam 15:22 KJV). There’s a lot more to be said here but I’ll move on for now.

But on the other hand, from the perspective of me specifically considering the system of Mormonism to be a sinful cycle of death, then yes, I ought to oppose it to my dying breath and pray for and witness to those who partake of it, urging them to leave it behind and end the cycle. Whether it is true or not, I ought to do this even though it would likely be futile, and if it turned out to be true then I would remain in the terrestrial kingdom—or even outer darkness having the moral satisfaction that I did not partake of an evil system, though I failed to stop it. However I do not see this future as a reality.

[Red]

Snow: “Next, you say that if God or a god were to go to other worlds and create a system whereby there was a cycle of sin and hell and the need for a savior then that would be the moral equivalent of murder and the God or god in question would be a murderer. Oh, hello! Who created this earth with sin and death and Satan and hell and innocent suffering and evil and the need for a Saviour? Does God not have moral responsibility for his own actions? And if he were to set up a system where other's did the same, would he still not have been the author of it all and therefore responsible. This one is not that tough Red.

No, it’s not tough is it? Again you nailed exactly what I am getting at. If God is the author of sin and death then He is a murderer, no doubt. That would make Him not good, and so not God. And also if he let others follow in his footsteps He’d make them murderers too. But remember what I said earlier, God is not the author of sin, death, or Satan. Not Satan? Yes, not Satan but Lucifer. God is the author of all that is good, including free will which allows us to love Him and each other. Lucifer took the good he was given and rebelled—his own glory was like his tree of good and evil, and so Lucifer became Satan. However, we all do the same thing everyday, abusing the freedom God has given us, we call it sin and/or evil.

God is also sovereign and if sin and death enter His creation He can and will use it for good. The suffering of the innocent is actually an example of this, as if God is saying by allowing it to go on, “Do you really think you can do this without Me?” Throughout the Prophets I see this principle driven home that God sends evil (our own perverted creation in a sense) to be used against us as discipline leading to repentance, healing and reconciliation, or to open rebellion resulting in condemnation—Hell was made by God, it is good because it justly punishes those who choose to be evil—it also quarantines the cancer in a sense. Lastly, the death of Christ was the most evil and dark day in history. I’m sure Satan was always very pleased with the method of crucifixion, yet God used the most cruel aspects of this life, the torture and death of a man who not only innocent but righteous—not only man but also God in the flesh to be the sacrifice for our sins, trespasses, mistakes, you name it. If it took all that, then sin ought to be opposed at every turn.

You see, even though God knew sin and death would occur, He is not responsible for it because He gave us responsibility (free will, as seen by two trees, not just the one), everything would we need or want (the whole world as a garden or kingdom), and the way to escape temptation—seriously, was there anything stopping Adam from Eating of the Tree of Life?—Nothing! We hold responsibility for sin and death and the suffering of the innocent, especially for the death Christ Himself. However, God allowed sin to contaminate our whole race in order to redeem us collectively by the righteousness of Christ, not ours.