God's ability to control spirit creation variability in obedience and valiancy

[Seminarysnoozer]

Towards the end of our pre-earthly existence we all were variable in our obedience and valiancy or did that variability exist from the start of our spiritual existence, made part of our traits through agency?

Is the organizational process of creating spirits out of Gods direct control? It seems that personality and the variability in choices is not just a random thing, that it is the spiritual make up of that person. In other words, when God created our brother Lucifer spiritually, did Lucifer start out with an equal mix of "intelligence" as the rest of us and made some random choices that made him turn into Lucifer? Or in the organizational process of forming us spiritually it results in random, variability of spiritual traits that is out of control of God and Lucifer just ended up with traits that gave him a propensity for being a vile snake right from the beginning. Like I can't produce only eggs that have specific traits (even if I wanted to), they come as they are. But whatever the creation process God has to make spirits it seems there has to be a random component that is out of His control to end up with some spirits more valiant than others and even some with evil tendencies. Otherwise, if we were of all the same equal portions of 'intelligence' and formed in the same matter and manner we would all be equally obedient and valiant in the pre-existence.

I guess the other way there could be variability is if it is related to age but I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Lucifer was also older, maybe I think that because he was also "one of authority". Some may say, "we have agency so we all end up different" but, to me, agency is not a random thing, 'you go here I'll go there' it is based in experience and traits of which decisions would only end up different if the likes and dislikes were different to begin with. If two spirits had the same likes and dislikes and propensities they would choose the same things. So where does that "one spirit more valiant than another" variability come from? Where do the spirits start to take different directions? Exactly, I don't know, but it sounds like it comes from the limitation of Gods control of the creation process of spirits.

I get the 'spirit matter was there it was always there', to me that's not an argument for variability unless God does not have a way of dividing it into equal or similar portions. But that is my proposition. If He does not have a way of dividing it into equal portions or only picking from the "good" intelligence material or make up, then by definition it is out of His control. Why would God form some spirits less valiant, less obedient than others?

[Vort]

Your question is reasonable, but as it's a question about mechanics, it is not answerable. We do not know the nature of spirits or of spiritual creation.

[Justice]

From what we know, it seems it is much a collaborative creative process requiring both a mother and a father, and the outcome is one of an infinite number of different possibilities.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I realize it is not answerable as to the specifics or the mechanics of it, but I think one can arrive at a reasonable assumption there is a part of that process that is a random or uncontrolled step, a bit of rolling of the dice.

Why is this important? I think some people struggle with "why did God make me this way?" kind of thoughts. I realize a lot of our earthly traits come from the limitation of our bodies and genetics etc. but the variation in "intelligences" our spiritual tendencies is also recognizable here.

It would be like getting mad at your parents for passing on the gene for hair loss. Why get mad at them, they had no control over that. Likewise our spiritual tendencies are not something we can say "why did God make me that way?" To me, at least, that's a comfort.

[Seminarysnoozer]

..... and reversely too, one cannot justify evil acts by "God made me this way."

This also helps that argument about God purposely making Lucifer, if it was out of His control.

[deseretgov]

Towards the end of our pre-earthly existence we all were variable in our obedience and valiancy or did that variability exist from the start of our spiritual existence, made part of our traits through agency?

Is the organizational process of creating spirits out of Gods direct control? It seems that personality and the variability in choices is not just a random thing, that it is the spiritual make up of that person. In other words, when God created our brother Lucifer spiritually, did Lucifer start out with an equal mix of "intelligence" as the rest of us and made some random choices that made him turn into Lucifer? Or in the organizational process of forming us spiritually it results in random, variability of spiritual traits that is out of control of God and Lucifer just ended up with traits that gave him a propensity for being a vile snake right from the beginning. Like I can't produce only eggs that have specific traits (even if I wanted to), they come as they are. But whatever the creation process God has to make spirits it seems there has to be a random component that is out of His control to end up with some spirits more valiant than others and even some with evil tendencies. Otherwise, if we were of all the same equal portions of 'intelligence' and formed in the same matter and manner we would all be equally obedient and valiant in the pre-existence.

I guess the other way there could be variability is if it is related to age but I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Lucifer was also older, maybe I think that because he was also "one of authority". Some may say, "we have agency so we all end up different" but, to me, agency is not a random thing, 'you go here I'll go there' it is based in experience and traits of which decisions would only end up different if the likes and dislikes were different to begin with. If two spirits had the same likes and dislikes and propensities they would choose the same things. So where does that "one spirit more valiant than another" variability come from? Where do the spirits start to take different directions? Exactly, I don't know, but it sounds like it comes from the limitation of Gods control of the creation process of spirits.

I get the 'spirit matter was there it was always there', to me that's not an argument for variability unless God does not have a way of dividing it into equal or similar portions. But that is my proposition. If He does not have a way of dividing it into equal portions or only picking from the "good" intelligence material or make up, then by definition it is out of His control. Why would God form some spirits less valiant, less obedient than others?

What I believe is that as intelligences we were not created by God. So God had no hand in our making. We were learning and growing and choice making intelligences. At some point God made a choice as to which ones would become his Spirit Children. At this point all the intelligences were divided into classes or groups. The most intelligent became His spirit children. The lesser ones gained spirits that would go into the "pre-human"(Neanderthal, ape-like humans, etc.) bodies. Lesser intelligences went into different types of animals spirits. Even lesser intelligences went into the spirits of plants. Still lesser went into the spirits that would form rocks and things. So depending on our level of intelligence we were given different levels of spirit bodies.

[Vort]

I realize it is not answerable as to the specifics or the mechanics of it, but I think one can arrive at a reasonable assumption there is a part of that process that is a random or uncontrolled step, a bit of rolling of the dice.

I understand and sympathize with your thinking, but I disagree. To use an example I used recently: Suppose I believed that the heavens consisted of an inverted opaque blue bowl, and that stars were simply holes in the bowl through which the heavenly light outside the bowl shines through. How much success would I have considering questions about distances between stars, or stellar motion, or the influence of gravity on such bodies? Not only would my understanding be so warped as to preclude getting any meaningful answers, but I might very likely come up with questions that make no sense at all -- questions like, Are there cracks in the bowl that connect stars near each other?

Without a reasonably accurate model of the stars, the planets, the galaxy, and the universe, many or most of the questions I ask on that topic cannot be answered meaningfully, and in fact I might not even be asking meaningful questions. Similarly, until we have a much better understanding of the mechanics of the creation of souls and the origin of individuality, I don't believe we can even ask meaningful questions about such things, much less formulate or understand the answers to them.

Why is this important? I think some people struggle with "why did God make me this way?" kind of thoughts. I realize a lot of our earthly traits come from the limitation of our bodies and genetics etc. but the variation in "intelligences" our spiritual tendencies is also recognizable here.

I agree that such questions might be answered with what you're searching for, but the fact remains that we have never been given the fundamental knowledge to answer or even understand such things. Any "answers" we come up with would be highly unlikely to bear any resemblance to actual reality. Is it better to give bogus, meaningless "answers" to try to help people, or simply to tell them up front, "We don't understand why these things are, but we do know that we are of infinite worth and that God loves us, so don't give up!"? The latter seems to me a better alternative.

[tubaloth]

From what I gather you are trying to figure out how there is variability in a spirit?

Why ones ends up in the path of righteousness and one ends up in the path of wickedness? The simple answer to me is Light. Now this light isn't in wattage, its some form or power from God.

93:28

He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

88

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

As I grow more in tune with this light, or this truth that is from God I gain more light, more knowledge, more understanding more truth. If I don't follow the light, I loose light which is gaining darkness.

Which means this does come down to agency, which is one of the things you had a problem with.

If two spirits had the same likes and dislikes and propensities they would choose the same things. So where does that "one spirit more valiant than another" variability come from? Where do the spirits start to take different directions?

I think experience is one thing, I think Motivation and faith is another. Why would I be motived to keep a commandment? I'm sure our Father told us that he would gain more knowledge and light. So why didn't I follow it perfectly. I had to have Faith that my choice would actually lead to that result. If I felt like it didn't, or was a waste of time (who knows what other distractions there are in Pre-mortal life), I wouldn't make that choice.

Satan knew the plan of salvation perfectly. Satan for what ever reason felt that his choice would lead to a greater outcome for Him.

The doctrine of the gospel is clear how to get to the Celestial Kingdom. Humans rationalize if that one choice is enough to make a difference. Mostly its in the scale of would this keep me out of Heaven, instead of would this get me in. I think part of the process of Pre-mortal life was to learn to make choices. I think once we learned really how to use our agency, then phase two of this earth life was ready for us. But this verying degree of choices explains why everybody is so different in the light and truth. So once I keep the command and others don't there is a difference in our connection with God so to speak. So the next choice, in theory would be even easier to make or more even easier to see because of the light I have.

We don't know enough about Intelligence, are there dumb intelligences from the start? Are are they all the same? I don't know about Intelligences, but I do feel when the spirit was created we were the same, or started on the same level.

93

38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

Edited October 31, 2009 by tubaloth

[tubaloth]

What I believe is that as intelligences we were not created by God. So God had no hand in our making. We were learning and growing and choice making intelligences. .

Wow Never heard this stuff before.

So God didn't create an Intelligences, but God has laws that govern Intelligences? That intelligences make choices from God, keep Gods commandment?

At some point God made a choice as to which ones would become his Spirit Children.

More like Puppies in a pet store. God came and picked us out.

At this point all the intelligences were divided into classes or groups. The most intelligent became His spirit children. The lesser ones gained spirits that would go into the "pre-human"(Neanderthal, ape-like humans, etc.) bodies.

Wait a minute. So God can choose the best intelligences, but God still takes the lesser intelligences to put in rocks and trees? Why even take those intelligences? I mean he can choose the best? Why does he need to pick the lesser?

Lesser intelligences went into different types of animals spirits. Even lesser intelligences went into the spirits of plants. Still lesser went into the spirits that would form rocks and things. So depending on our level of intelligence we were given different levels of spirit bodies.

So a rock intelligence was just dumb! For what ever reason he didn't make the correct choice (I assume this choice is coming from God). This Intelligence could have been a Human, but it made bad choices, God realized it was dumb, and put it in a rock? Because a rock doesn't make choices.

Edited October 31, 2009 by tubaloth

[Justice]

I agree that such questions might be answered with what you're searching for, but the fact remains that we have never been given the fundamental knowledge to answer or even understand such things.

I agree with some of what you're saying, Vort. But, this is what I disagree with.

I believe we have been given the answers. I believe the answers are in the scriptures. We haven't been able to see them yet, but they are there.

It's not that the information has not been revealed, it's just that we seem to be waiting to be told the answer by the propeht, or at the Second Coming. There are many pearls of great price and much wisdom to be learned from understanding the scriptures by the spirit.

When someone like John or Nephi is constrained by the Spirit not to write something, is it because they were going to say something not written elsewhere? Or, is it because they were going to explain something in a much more clear manner, opening it up to those who can't see it written elsewhere? To me the scriptures are like parables. The information is there for those who can see it. But, the meaning isn't always made clear, intentionally, so it can be hidden from those who are not ready. This is how Christ used parables, and it stands to reason this is how He would use the scriptures.

We often think the scriptures yet to be revealed will be groundbreaking with new and exciting information. I view it more like how the Book of Mormon clarifies the Bible. There are truths very difficult to understand in the Bible alone. When you add the Book of Mormon many of the truths taught in the Bible are revealed more plainly and are easier for us to understand. The additional scriptures out there may teach things more plainly, but the answers are in the scriptures... we just can't see them yet.

Over the last 30 years the spirit has opened many new truths to me in the Book of Mormon and Bible. I'm hoping if I continue to study that more and more will be opened.

One thing I have learned about the Book of Mormon is that there is far more in it about the pre-mortal existence than I ever could have dreamed 10 years ago. But, these are things that are "caught and not taught." To those who are not ready, like myself years ago, they are stories about obedience and wars. But, that is not all they are. When I read the Book of Mormon now I don't even "see" the terms "Nephite and Lamanite" anymore. I see those terms used as symbols representing something else.

I can only imagine what I might learn from the Book of Mormon over the next 10 years!

There are so many truths there that I can't see just because I am not ready to see them yet.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

What I believe is that as intelligences we were not created by God. So God had no hand in our making. We were learning and growing and choice making intelligences. At some point God made a choice as to which ones would become his Spirit Children. At this point all the intelligences were divided into classes or groups. The most intelligent became His spirit children. The lesser ones gained spirits that would go into the "pre-human"(Neanderthal, ape-like humans, etc.) bodies. Lesser intelligences went into different types of animals spirits. Even lesser intelligences went into the spirits of plants. Still lesser went into the spirits that would form rocks and things. So depending on our level of intelligence we were given different levels of spirit bodies.

I appreciate your response, helps me see it in a different light. If I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like you are saying it's like picking a team. My only concern with that idea is why would He pick intelligences that would be cast into outer darkness and lose a third of the host of heaven. Maybe that's the first cut of the 'try-outs'?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree that such questions might be answered with what you're searching for, but the fact remains that we have never been given the fundamental knowledge to answer or even understand such things. Any "answers" we come up with would be highly unlikely to bear any resemblance to actual reality. Is it better to give bogus, meaningless "answers" to try to help people, or simply to tell them up front, "We don't understand why these things are, but we do know that we are of infinite worth and that God loves us, so don't give up!"? The latter seems to me a better alternative.

Thanks Vort. I think I feel the same way. It keeps coming up in my thoughts because it seems there are a lot of related questions that keep coming up. Like, not to long ago someone asked can God do what He does without Lucifer? or something of that sort. And the set of questions asked by Snow in regard to limiting peoples choices to just good options. I think it would be helpful to know that God didn't play an active role in what Lucifer became, in other words, I believe God didn't purposely create Lucifer from the start to be Lucifer in the end or all evil intelligences for that matter. I don't know how, and probably won't know until it is given to us to understand but at least thinking about these possibilities helps me keep God in the highest light.

[Seminarysnoozer]

From what I gather you are trying to figure out how there is variability in a spirit?

Why ones ends up in the path of righteousness and one ends up in the path of wickedness? The simple answer to me is Light. Now this light isn't in wattage, its some form or power from God.

As I grow more in tune with this light, or this truth that is from God I gain more light, more knowledge, more understanding more truth. If I don't follow the light, I loose light which is gaining darkness.

Which means this does come down to agency, which is one of the things you had a problem with.

I think experience is one thing, I think Motivation and faith is another. Why would I be motived to keep a commandment? I'm sure our Father told us that he would gain more knowledge and light. So why didn't I follow it perfectly. I had to have Faith that my choice would actually lead to that result. If I felt like it didn't, or was a waste of time (who knows what other distractions there are in Pre-mortal life), I wouldn't make that choice.

Satan knew the plan of salvation perfectly. Satan for what ever reason felt that his choice would lead to a greater outcome for Him.

The doctrine of the gospel is clear how to get to the Celestial Kingdom. Humans rationalize if that one choice is enough to make a difference. Mostly its in the scale of would this keep me out of Heaven, instead of would this get me in. I think part of the process of Pre-mortal life was to learn to make choices. I think once we learned really how to use our agency, then phase two of this earth life was ready for us. But this verying degree of choices explains why everybody is so different in the light and truth. So once I keep the command and others don't there is a difference in our connection with God so to speak. So the next choice, in theory would be even easier to make or more even easier to see because of the light I have.

We don't know enough about Intelligence, are there dumb intelligences from the start? Are are they all the same? I don't know about Intelligences, but I do feel when the spirit was created we were the same, or started on the same level.

93

38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

I think you are mixing in a lot of quotes about this life to explain things that happened in the pre-earthly life. We didn't know right from wrong in that existence. And if we were all created equally in the beginning that doesn't explain why we took different paths in the pre-existence. I know we had agency but why would our choices be different even if given agency if we all had the same make up. Why would one spirit be more or less distracted than another if you think that is the variable? Or why would one spirit have different distractions than another, who aligned those distractions that way?

You said; "but I do feel when the spirit was created we were the same, or started on the same level. "

Starting on the same level and created the same are two different things for me. Like starting out at Kindergarten, we can all start at the same level but all kindergarten children are not the same. So what I am asking about is where that variability started. I think we can all agree it exists. Just, does God play a role in creating that variability? or is that variability out of His hands?

[deseretgov]

Wow Never heard this stuff before.

That's because it's a mix of doctrine and personal opinions.

So God didn't create an Intelligences, but God has laws that govern Intelligences? That intelligences make choices from God, keep Gods commandment?

Becuase without intelligences God wouldn't have a kingdom. And without God intelligences couldn't progress. So it's mutually advantageous. Intelligences agree to obey God's laws.

More like Puppies in a pet store. God came and picked us out.

Sure, whatever.

Wait a minute. So God can choose the best intelligences, but God still takes the lesser intelligences to put in rocks and trees? Why even take those intelligences? I mean he can choose the best? Why does he need to pick the lesser?

Well if God did choose the lesser intelligences for anything then there wouldn't be animals, plants, rocks, or any world. So we couldn't progress. Also why would God but a greater intelligence in a rock. Rocks can't progress to become like God.

So a rock intelligence was just dumb! For what ever reason he didn't make the correct choice (I assume this choice is coming from God). This Intelligence could have been a Human, but it made bad choices, God realized it was dumb, and put it in a rock? Because a rock doesn't make choices.

Just like us. If we don't make the right choices than we can progress. The level to which we progress is based on the choices we make. It's the exact same thing. A rock itself can't make choices but the intelligences who are attached to the matter that make up the rock can. And the choose to follow God. For example When Moses parted the Red Sea. All the water molecules(or whatever amount of matter an intelligence controls) are attached to an intelligence. When God commands the intelligences to move, they move. They moved their tiny bits of water out of the way and the Sea parted. Without intelligences the water just would have sat there. But if you want to get technical without intelligences the water never would have been there in the first place. It would all be free floating prticles of matter out in space.

I appreciate your response, helps me see it in a different light. If I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like you are saying it's like picking a team. My only concern with that idea is why would He pick intelligences that would be cast into outer darkness and lose a third of the host of heaven. Maybe that's the first cut of the 'try-outs'?

Well why does he give all of us a chance? God knows which ones of us will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Why didn't he just pick out those ones and forget about the rest?

[Justice]

I know your question is rhetorical, but the answer is because we can't be punished unless or until we break a law.

It's like punishing your child because he looked across the street, but didn't actually cross it.

Being kicked out of God's presence requires for each to make that choice so the punishment can be executed justly.

[Dravin]

Another question to ask, is if being an intelligence is better than being in the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms (I'm assuming no outer darkness). If you can experience more joy in the Telestial than as an intelligence then you run into the situation where trying and failing (at Celestial Glory) is still better than never trying in the first place. It's like playing a lottery (if you'll forgive the analogy), you are all guaranteed to win $1, $5 or $10 and the ticket costs $0.25. Unless you purchase and throw away your ticket (Outer Darkness) you come out ahead. Of course you want to win $10, but hey, $0.75 ahead is better than nothing.

Note: This is my own musing, I make no claim to this being official church doctrine. Actually it may be against explicit and official church doctrine, in which case please inform me.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well why does he give all of us a chance? God knows which ones of us will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Why didn't he just pick out those ones and forget about the rest?

We were talking about the very first of our relationship with God, the moment of our beginning association with God. The moment He 'created' us. You were, in essence, saying that He picked intelligences to be His spirit children. You said; " At some point God made a choice as to which ones would become his Spirit Children." So if He had a choice, then He picked Lucifer and all those that followed Him to be His children, according to that theory. I was saying that I have a hard time understanding why God would purposely choose spirits He knew were going to have tendencies for evil.

Maybe He is bound by some unknown law to choose a spattering of different spirits if it is a choice, I don't know ... this is your theory. But whatever the case, I think it has to be some process that is out of His control because I can't see Him doing that on purpose. That is the only point I am trying to make is that it seems like it has to be a process out of His control or choosing. Once the relationship starts, I agree He can't just abandon us. We were talking about starting the relationship, the Father-children relationship. And especially since you said; " So God had no hand in our making. We were learning and growing and choice making intelligences." He would then have a very good knowledge of choices that were made to that point. That would make it an even more intentional choice.

Thanks

Edited November 1, 2009 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Seminarysnoozer]

Another question to ask, is if being an intelligence is better than being in the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms (I'm assuming no outer darkness). If you can experience more joy in the Telestial than as an intelligence then you run into the situation where trying and failing (at Celestial Glory) is still better than never trying in the first place. It's like playing a lottery (if you'll forgive the analogy), you are all guaranteed to win $1, $5 or $10 and the ticket costs $0.25. Unless you purchase and throw away your ticket (Outer Darkness) you come out ahead. Of course you want to win $10, but hey, $0.75 ahead is better than nothing.

Note: This is my own musing, I make no claim to this being official church doctrine. Actually it may be against explicit and official church doctrine, in which case please inform me.

I like your analogy, it is thought provoking. I think it is better to be in a kingdom than just be an intelligence but I am biased, I already chose that once, and so did everyone here.

Using your analogy, if I can, if you could pick tickets that will win $10 by forming (creating) the ones that would have only won lesser amounts into full winning tickets why not? Of course if you couldn't, than you would take every one of them. But by admitting that you couldn't change the lesser amount winning tickets into full $10 winning tickets is admitting to a part of the process that is out of your control. There is some random or chance component that God could not manipulate in the creation process to make them all '$10 winners'. ... And in you analogy, you would have to say 30% of tickets purchased are lost.

This is a dilemma because if one says "God created my spirit the way I am" then He also created Lucifer the way he is and 30% failures. Or if you say "the way I am is because I have always been this way, my eternal 'intelligence' is unchanged, he just gave me a chance (not talking about growing and developing but the original traits). Then one would have to say that God had no direct part in making the spirit the way it is, at the very beginning of the Father-children relationship. ... and if one says "we had no traits in the beginning, we were just spirit potentials, all the same." Well then we would all be the same in the end, like a line of computers without any software. We know that's not true because there were some more valiant and some more obedient than others. Or if one said, "we were all the same in the beginning but we picked our own traits, our own directions" I don't see how that is possible as we didn't know right from wrong, how could some pick evil traits? And, again, I don't see how anyone would pick something different than anyone else if we were all the same, unless it is a random process.