Romans 10: 1-3

[kingcounty]

Here is Romans 10, verses 1-3, in the New King James Version of the Bible:

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God."

This passage teaches some vital truths that many people have missed. Here they are:

In the first two verses, Paul tells us there was a group of Israelites who were not saved. That means they were not delivered from the penalty of sin, which the Bible tells us is eternal suffering.

In the third verse, Paul tells us why they were not saved. It was because of three related reasons.

A. They were ignorant of God's righteousness.

B. They were seeking to establish their own righteousness. That means they were seeking to earn a place in heaven on the basis of their own merit.

C. They had not submitted to the righteousness of God. This means they had not accepted the way to heaven that God had ordained.

This passage makes it clear that if a person believes their own works will help to get them into a better place after they die, they are still on a path that leads to hell.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by kingcounty@Oct 19 2005, 12:15 AM

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God."

In the third verse, Paul tells us why they were not saved.  It was because of three related reasons. 

A.  They were ignorant of God's righteousness. 

B.  They were seeking to establish their own righteousness.  That means they were seeking to earn a place in heaven on the basis of their own merit. 

C.  They had not submitted to the righteousness of God.  This means they had not accepted the way to heaven that God had ordained. 

This passage makes it clear that if a person believes their own works will help to get them into a better place after they die, they are still on a path that leads to hell.

←

Quite a leap there, kc, not to mention what I perceive to be an incomplete interpretation of the text cited. First, let me just point out that what you said is in clear conflict with Revelations 20:12 which reads...

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

So a simple, "doing good works will not lead to heaven" comment really doesn't cut it, because here the apostle John clearly reveals that he saw all mankind being judged according to their works (I won't get into intent, accountability based on knowledge, opportunities for obedience etc...).

What the passage in Romans seems to describe is made clearer by reading the next verse, four, as below:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Romans 10:4, KJV)

Paul is referring to Israel as a whole in verse one, but more pointedly, to their leadership who, with their additions to the law of Moses, the oral law, building their hedge around the law, was establishing their own authority, or righteousness, when the only authority and righteousness which is efficacious is in Jesus Christ.

Paul states that "Israel" did not submit to the righteousness of God, which he points out in verse four is Jesus Christ, meaning they did not accept Christ as Savior but sought to establish their own righteousness or authority through unauthorized alterations in the Mosaic law.

The history of the scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees highlights this clearly, as it was their pretended authority and pretended righteousness which Paul condemns. Bear in mind that almost all of Paul's references to "the law" in the New Testament are references to "the law of Moses" with it's myriad sacrificial requirements and Pharisaic doctrinal perversions. Whenever Paul speaks of "the law" he almost always contrasts it with Christ, showing that Christ's gospel is the source of salvation, not dead sacrificial works.

In any event, most enlightening of all concerning whether "works" or "good works" namely "obedience" is necessary to return to God is this passage in the New Testament. I appeal to the Savior to settle the controversy:

"And, behold, one came and said unto [Jesus], Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

"And [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17).

There you have it, from the Lord himself...whether we "enter into life" or God's presence depends on our keeping the commandments. Hence, the task becomes determining which church is authorized by the Lord to extend His commandments, not debating whether obedience or "works" are necessary.

If you are not a member of the LDS church, I invite you to study the LDS church and the Book of Mormon and pray for yourself to see whether you feel God is speaking through prophets and apostles today within the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you are a member already, then I leave you with the passage of Matthew 19:16-17 to ponder in relation to your claim about works being unnecessary.

[Snow]

Originally posted by kingcounty@Oct 18 2005, 09:15 PM

This passage makes it clear that if a person believes their own works will help to get them into a better place after they die, they are still on a path that leads to hell.

←

Well, no the passage says no such thing. You just made that up.

However, what I find more interesting is that what you just made up contradicts your own beliefs. Here's how.

You believe that salvation is through faith and faith alone. True? Yes.

So what is required for salvation is an acceptance of Jesus as your savior. Great.

Then you contradict yourself and purport that in addition to faith and acceptance of Christ, you must also add a correct understanding of doctrine.

Salvation = faith and correct interpretation of the Bible.

Whatever.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 19 2005, 09:12 PM

Salvation = faith and correct interpretation of the Bible.

Whatever.

←

Excellent point Snow. Hahaha, that's so true! :)

[kingcounty]

This is in response to post number two. I don't know that I can respond to

everything you said, but I can respond to some of it. Here goes:

Revelation 20:12 certainly says the dead were judged "according to their works."

That is not the same thing as saying their eternal fate was determined according

to their works. The greek word for "judged" that is used in that verse is "krino".

In the back of Strong's Concordance there is a dictionary. The definition

of "krino" says "prop. to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by impl. to

try, condemn, punish:- avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine,

esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think."

As you can see, the definition includes the english word "judge". In my Merriam-

Webster dictionary, in the definition of the verb, it says "1. to form an

authoritative opinion 2. to decide as a judge: TRY 3. to determine or pronounce

after inquiry and deliberation 4. to form an estimate or evaluation about

something: THINK syn adjudge, adjudicate, arbitrate, conclude, deduce, gather"

It must mean that some kind of pronouncement was made, but it cannot mean

that their eternal fate was determined according to their works. I believe the Holy

Bible has no contradictions, and if your interpretation was correct, this verse

would be in conflict with Ephesians 2:8,9, Romans 11:6, and Romans 3:21 through

4:8.

Now I will attempt to address Matthew 19:16-17. These two verses need to be

considered as part of a larger passage, namely Matthew 19:16-26. Here again, if

Jesus was teaching the rich young ruler that he could have eternal life by obeying

the commandments, this passage would be in conflict with the passages I

mentioned above. So, what is Jesus really trying to get across to the rich young

ruler? I think he is teaching him that he cannot keep the commandments

perfectly, and thus cannot attain eternal life by them.

[kingcounty]

This is in response to post number three.

God declares people to be acceptable in His sight on the basis of only one

criterion, which is their faith. Their faith must be in the right things, which are the

deity of Christ and His finished work on the cross, and not in anything else.

I was not making doctrine another criterion. I think doctrine is something people

have in their minds, and faith is something they have in their hearts.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by kingcounty@Oct 19 2005, 11:45 PM

So, what is Jesus really trying to get across to the rich young

ruler?  I think he is teaching him that he cannot keep the commandments

perfectly, and thus cannot attain eternal life by them.

←

That made no sense to me at all. I mean, I got that you're stuck on the fact that the Bible cannot contradict itself (where in the Bible does it say that?), but why should your interpretation of what Jesus was teaching the rich man be any "more true" than mine?

You really need to get over the whole "the Bible can't contradict itself" because it does all over the place. The value is in the message of hope and salvation through our perfect Savior, not perfect syntax, diction and grammar. I mean, look at how the different gospel writers reported that the title above Christ's head on the cross was written...they all used different wording, that's not even a case of interpretation, it's denotation and it's spelled out.

So do we reject the gospels because of this contradiction? You decide. As for me, your explanation that Rev. 20:12 cannot mean what I said it means because the Bible cannot be allowed to contradict itself is weak reasoning (almost circular), honestly. Quote Greek words and definitions all you want, you're merely strengthening my case...I mean, if their eternal fate wasn't being judged in Rev. 20:12, what was? Their choice in clothing? What music they liked? Just what exactly were the dead being judged on if not their worthiness to return to God?

[Snow]

Originally posted by kingcounty@Oct 19 2005, 09:14 PM

This is in response to post number three.

God declares people to be acceptable in His sight on the basis of only one

criterion, which is their faith.  Their faith must be in the right things, which are the

deity of Christ and His finished work on the cross, and not in anything else. 

I was not making doctrine another criterion.  I think doctrine is something people

have in their minds, and faith is something they have in their hearts.

←

Now you not making any sense. Is there like an evangelica school they can send you to or something.

First you said that you had to disbelieve the idea of faith AND works in order to not go to hell.

Now you say that faith only saves except that the faith can only be in Christ's diety and his finished work and that alone.

So if I also have faith that the Bible was written by men inspired of God, by you criteria, I am back on the road to hell.

By the way, you needn't try to explain. I know exactly what your position is dispite your inability to explain it.

You believe that salvation comes from faith only provided everyone believes in your very narrow (and I say silly) interpretation of the Bible and so you tact on to the idea of Faith Only, the extra requirement (found nowhere in the Bible) that faith must be in strict accordance with your beliefs with the express purpose of trying to exclude others from God's grace.

Whatever.

I bet if a Mormon believed that salvation was by faith, you would invent some other way to exclude them. Bigotry is a difficult business to be in these days. Must be rough on you. Maybe you ought to give The Church of Jesus Christ a try. You don't have attack anybody, you can lead by example and let other's chase after you for a change.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 19 2005, 12:32 AM

There you have it, from the Lord himself...whether we "enter into life" or God's presence depends on our keeping the commandments. Hence, the task becomes determining which church is authorized by the Lord to extend His commandments, not debating whether obedience or "works" are necessary.

Now, I'm finding your conclusion to also be a leap. The relationship between God and man goes far beyond being a member of an organized religion.

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. For the scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Romans 10:8-13 NET Bible)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:9-13 KJV)

M.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by kingcounty@Oct 18 2005, 10:15 PM

This passage makes it clear that if a person believes their own works will help to get them into a better place after they die, they are still on a path that leads to hell.

No it doesn't.

The existence of the bible does not prove the existence of God, or Jesus as being such a god or even the son of such a god.

Even if it did, Paul is not God, he is just telling us what he heard Jesus say...who may or may not be god.

Furthermore, the existence of the bible does not prove the existence of Paul.

So you really have no evidence of anything.

Stop trying to scare my LDS brothers and sisters. What are you, the boogyman?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Maureen@Oct 20 2005, 01:42 PM

Now, I'm finding your conclusion to also be a leap. The relationship between God and man goes far beyond being a member of an organized religion.

←

Sure does. Don't remember writing that you just have to have your name in the records of a church to be saved. But then, you knew that when you responded.

[Serg]

I agree with Ray...

Its very interesting to see and understand the relation between what we speak and what happens around us. Its said in the Word that it literaly changes the surroundings and all...

But more than a motivational advise, its got something more. And its not that with only confessing the Lord you are saved...

That same Paul that said so, also said ': "cause in Christ Jesus, there is no circumcision or uncircumcision, but to keep God's commandments.." So we find a very "different"saying...

But its not so, John in his epistles shows that confessing the Lord really means to PREACH IT as TRUTH. He says : Dont believe every spirit, but that which confesses that the Lord came in flesh..." And also , that salvation is only within THOSE expressions, those CREEDS, that GOSPEL, the only one.

Peter, the leader of such church said in the very first verse of his epistle, "we 've been called to "OBEY", and further more says that its through the grace and the spirits that we are saved but through the OBEDIENCE that we are COMMITTED for so.

The very Jesus said that not all who call him : Lord!Lord! will enter salvation but those who do the will of His Father...

Now dont tell me Maureen that the WILL OF THE FATHER is to only confess Jesus, for then the other commandments must have been taken away, but if you watch closely youll find that in the Apocalypse, there's the ARC with the LAW and the STICK of Aaron and the MANA, that represent the COMMANMENTS, the PRIESTHOOD OF CHRIST AND THE LIVING BREAD THAT COMES FROM SALVATION. So even at the end of times the Law will be remember, why? Cause you ought to follow it until then...LOL

Best regards..

[Maureen]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 20 2005, 07:34 PM

Sure does. Don't remember writing that you just have to have your name in the records of a church to be saved. But then, you knew that when you responded.

AK - Not sure what you're saying that I knew, but I really doubt that you can read my mind through a message board.

My point was that, you went through your post explaining your point in regards to faith, works, obeying the commandments and then seem to end by concluding that all come together by a certain earthly church organization you must be a member of (read LDS). It's seems you think that all the faith, works, obeying the commandments, etc. really mean nothing if they're not stamped with approval of the LDS church. I disagree, I believe that the spiritual relationship that mankind can have with God supercedes any church membership.

M.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Maureen@Oct 21 2005, 04:29 PM

I believe that the spiritual relationship that mankind can have with God supercedes any church membership.

←

And I support your right to think that. I just didn't want someone thinking that I'm saying, "Hey, join the LDS church and you're set," because as you said there is a very personal relationship that's as important as public worship in the process of returning to God, in my opinion. So sure we don't agree on the particulars, I just wanted my position to be clear, and know that I know your position, I think we're good to go.

[Snow]

It's looking like Kingcounty was just another born-again troll. Anyway, here's his whole gig in a nutshell:

Salvation is by faith only.

Period.

... unless your a Mormon, then you must have faith but also deny that obedience to God is necessary.

Period.

... unless you agree to that and in that case you must also accept the Nicene creed. So salvation is faith AND denial of necessary obedience AND agreement with the 4th century Catholic views on the Trinity.

Period.

... oh yeah and you you also can't believe that Christ had an evil brother. So salvation comes by faith AND, blah, AND, blah, AND, blah.

Or, to sum it up, if you don't agree with me, you're going to hell.

[Serg]

Hi, could’nt make it during the weekend to participate(internet problems) but now could, just to say some things as to how we can try to see “salvation”:

The act of confessing the Lord, does it save??? Its said: (Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Now, it is a beautiful scripture but, do we understand it as we should? Lets see this: (Romans 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Oh! so now it includes “obeying”, and this through FAITH, which comes from the very Word. The same Paul that also said: (1 Corinthians 7:19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Now as to confess: (Hebrews 13:15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls...

Again : (2 John 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

And again: (1 John 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

* So as we see, confessing the Lord’s name is to praise HIM, to obey HIM and to PROCLAIM HIM as our King and Saviour. There’s nothing bad with “confessing Jesus as our personal Saviour” , what is deceiving is to believe that by only that we are saved.

Jesus said: (Matthew 23:2) “ The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Matthew 23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” This for those who say we have no similar law or any law at all, as Paul said: (1 Corinthians 9:20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. So what is it, FAITH OR WORKS that saves?

(Hebrews 11:33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,... So in some way, righteousness comes TROUGH FAITH but is WROUGHT also, how? why? Cause “FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”. The only way to give something, is having it. The only way to let know you have something is by someway SHOWING IT. For also is said: (2 Corinthians 8:12) “For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.”

Please watch this : (2 Timothy 1:9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (2 Timothy 1:10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” Wow, this is Paul. Note quickly that says that He SAVED us(in past) and now relate that part with the part later saying Jesus’s grace before the world began, and that one with Peter’s and John’s saying of Christ as the Lamb sacrified before the world was... And now see this, does it say that we are NOT saved by works? No, closely says that our CALLING was not by works, this means, the oportunity, the possibility, the effort of God himself to save us is NOT by our works for he died for ALL, whether sinner or righteous, BUT the “life and immortality to light” was brought TROUGH the GOSPEL, as Peter said : (1 Peter 1:22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: so there’s no much to say, letalone what the 5th verse says: (1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So His call is by grace and even the salvation in the last time to be revealed but it requires obedience, why? Cause it requires a NEW person, as also said: (1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So the hope comes from the faith, and the obidience too, and these take us to be participants of the glory of God, not His grace, for if it were by works, then its not by grace, but its by grace, so God can be all in all.

As Paul also said: (Ephesians 2:8) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (1 John 5:3)

Oh! So by grace we in fact are saved, yes, not of ourselves, for NONE of us deserved His sacrifice, but its given the opportunity to all, and saved by FAITH, which one? That which has works, that which WALKS IN THE GOOD WORKS GOD ORDAINED BEFORE. But there is also the conclusion of all this said here: (1 Corinthians 13:13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity(love).

(1 John 5:1) “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” .

To live with God, we ought to be like Him....(and it does’nt come through the statement of a sentence, LOL)

“Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of His steps.”(Psalms 85:13)

Best regards,