Verse 9-13

[Guest Member_Deleted]

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

I believe this is a little more than just more clarification of verse 4-8.... I believe it is building a path of reason to why one cannot serve two masters... It could be paralleled by both Christ's statement of a house divided against itself cannot stand... and being either cold or hot... luke warm being sprewed out...

I think of Judas.... when I read this...

Why would we be given the natural man then? being it is an enemy of God... yet a friend and aly of Satan?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 19 2005, 01:29 PM

I think of Judas.... when I read this... 

Why would we be given the natural man then? being it is an enemy of God... yet a friend and aly of Satan?

Why would we be given the natural man then? being it is an enemy of God... yet a friend and aly of Satan?

Are you asking those questions, Please?

Do you really not know the answers?

Have you ever tried finding the answers to your questions by asking other questions?

For instance, where does the natural man come from?

Or more to the point, what is the natural man?

And if someone is a natural man, must they always remain a natural man?

If you don’t know the answers to those questions, the apostle Paul gives a pretty good little dissertation about what the natural man is, where the natural man comes from, and how we can become a new creation through Jesus Christ. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll look it up for you.

But somehow I have the idea that you already knew the answers to those questions, and that you were merely trying to spark a conversation with others. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray+Oct 19 2005, 03:00 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 19 2005, 01:29 PM

I think of Judas.... when I read this... 

Why would we be given the natural man then? being it is an enemy of God... yet a friend and aly of Satan?

Why would we be given the natural man then? being it is an enemy of God... yet a friend and aly of Satan?

Are you asking those questions, Please?

Do you really not know the answers?

Have you ever tried finding the answers to your questions by asking other questions?

For instance, where does the natural man come from?

Or more to the point, what is the natural man?

And if someone is a natural man, must they always remain a natural man?

If you don’t know the answers to those questions, the apostle Paul gives a pretty good little dissertation about what the natural man is, where the natural man comes from, and how we can become a new creation through Jesus Christ. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll look it up for you.

But somehow I have the idea that you already knew the answers to those questions, and that you were merely trying to spark a conversation with others. :)

←

BUT WHY? I believe the natural man comes from our physical selves... which is of this earth... but why.... does it have the tendacies towards the wickedness??

I know about overcoming the natural man with Christ.... but why would we be given this side in the first place?? I mean ... I know we were given a body to come to earth and be tested.... but who needs the natural man when we have 5 0'clock rush hour to test us to the limits??

[Ray]

I think that question would be answered by an understanding of what the natural man is, and why we need a redeemer to redeem us.

Or to put it another way, the natural man is fallen man, and without a redeemer, we can't get up.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 19 2005, 03:28 PM

I think that question would be answered by an understanding of what the natural man is, and why we need a redeemer to redeem us.

Or to put it another way, the natural man is fallen man, and without a redeemer, we can't get up.

←

So... Adam falls... if he hadn't ... we wouldn't have the natural man?

[Ray]

Correct.

I recommend that you do a search for the word "natural" in our online Topical Guide. You can find the references I was referring to by the apostle Paul, and now that I've searched through those scriptures again myself, I also recommend Alma 12:22 and some other scriptures you can find in the Book of Mormon. Several prophets were particularly clear on this subject.

[Serg]

I believe Please, you are a very intelligent and curious member.

Yes, if Adam had never fallen , there would be NO natural man.

But why does the natural man tends to the "wickedness", well, its so. You see, man(as body), after the fall, lost its perfection(for Adam had it perfect), and since, its COMPONENTS attract other similar ones(earth). I mean...this tabernacle LOVES it to be crawling on the ground, dirty, seeking pleasure, and savage. But reason instead, doesnt fight it but "canalizes" it(it leads it moderately). But spirit, ah!, It governs it. Now, its not that pleasur is wicked or dirty is not divine, is just that God has set rules for you to follow. If you had no tendency to bad, how would you choose wisely? For Lucipher had no tendency at all, but his wickedness could more thn his own divine nature...with us is different...Actions have been stablished as "good"ones and "bad ones", that simple, and its got to do with your inside. Now, with tendency to bad, people can really PROVE who they follow. Because it requires HARD EFFORT to FIGHT your own self and nature, and as Jesus said, to DENY IT. Of course, our real and eternal nature is for good, and thats a fact...For in the beggining it was contemplated that Spirits would DOMAIN their tabernacles, for some things in the eternity were made to govern and others to be governed. So is with us, you see, the bible and the BOM, tell us that WITHOUT humility there is no ARISE or EXALTATION, as to Jesus was. The letter to the Hebrews is so revealing...you see the 2nd and 3rd chapter, please read it, i love it. It explains clearly what this probation is all about, it says that 'god crowned man, and put ALL THINGS under his feet...but we DONT SEE IT right now..." and so on... And then says:"but we see ONE(Jesus), that was made a little less than angels..." and now is ABOVE ALL. So with us. The word says: Prov.15:33; ..."and HUMILITY precedes HONOR...".

Thats an eternal law. Now, i cant say more by now, but its sufficient as Ray said, for you to look it up, onyour own , and then bring doubts here (if you need it)....

Best regards,

***********************************************************

Psalms 130:3) If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Serg stated:

for some things in the eternity were made to govern and others to be governed.

Wow... this is something I had forgotten... I will read all of what you and Ray have suggested... thanks!