Proof That Moses Was A Sham!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 20 2005, 02:51 PM

I guess you are in support of enslaving people...for over 400 years... to build useless big buildings... killing millions..... as the Egyptians did...

Grief Jason... get your head on straight will ya?

Wow...

First of all...

The Egyptians killed Millions. So did most other civilizations. So did Yahweh...in the flood...and maybe I am remembering wrong but didn't Jesus kill millions of Lamanites or Nephites in the BoM?

Building useless big buildings...most of those buildings probably served some religious purpose, and as LDS you are supposed to allow people to worship how and where they choose. Its an article of faith. Also, the LDS Church has built one of the largest buildings of worship (the Conference Center) in America. It is meant to honor god, and that is ok with me. On the other hand, there was something Lehi learned about a "large and spacious building":

1 Nephi 12: 18 "And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men."

Now, I guess building a large, spacious building to honor the one true god might be an exception, and I personally have no problem with large, spacious buildings. In fact, they are a testament to man's great achievements in architecture, given to us by God.

As for slavery...the Egyptians approved of it. Who else would?

Yahweh certainly does.

Isn't that exactly what the Israelites did after they escaped captivity?

See Numbers Chapter 31 (expecially verse 15-18).

Yahweh supported slavery, as demonstrated in that chapter and in many others including the Law of Moses that included instructions on how to deal with slaves, rather than forbidding slavery.

The difference? Yahweh did not support the idea of his chosen people being slaves.

Oh, and going back to killing people, Numbers 31 also describes the murder of innocent children as a commandment from Yahweh. And in fact, in Exodus he also killed the innocent Egyptian children, right?

This is a "Heavenly Father?"

Don't get me wrong...I love God as much as the next guy. I believe He is our Heavenly Father (though not necessarily an exalted man, or even an intelligent superbeing, "he" or "it" is our creator and worthy of our love)

I do not believe that Yahweh is that same god, based on what I have read.

[Paul Osborne]

Jason,

Go look up the references for youself. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convert you to anything. You're a lost cause. But others who read this thread need to know the other angle, but you are out of the loop. Duhhhh

You want me to comment on how many Israelites came out of Egypt? Well, I know you don't believe everything you read, so don't put too much stock in those inflated numbers.

Have a nice day, Jason.

Paul O

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 20 2005, 06:10 PM

It's such a shame that you waste your intellect in such arguments Jason.

I am inclined to agree with you ApostleKnight...Jason is wasting his time arguing with these people.

I don't remember if it is in this thread or the one about "poo", but I saw somewhere Jason was trying to convince Ray that you cannot KNOW anything. Even our own experiences could be delusions...though this is not his exact words, I think he would agree...it is the philosophy that was taught to the masses of people who never read a philosophy book 6 years ago with the release of the movie "The Matrix", yet Ray still rejects that philosophy, even though it is self-evident logic.

I tried to use the same argument with Ray a few years ago, saying that what he had was not "Knowledge" of God, but strong "Faith". But Ray insisted his Faith was valid enough to be considered knowledge because he could tell the difference between a delusion and a genuine spiritual experience. I argued that one could never know for certain if God was talking to them...they could only have faith. But no...Ray called this Knowledge, and I could not change his mind. So we had to agree to disagree on the definition of Knowledge and end the discussion.

Jason...

Take my advice...there is no point in arguing with Ray or Please or anyone who "knows" they had a spiritual experience. Their definition of knowledge is different than that of Kant and the philosophers. If you are not using the same definitions for your words, then discussions are pointless.

Also, I also wonder why you are here. I left here a long time ago, knowing I could not change anyone's mind about the Church. And I don't really care who believes in it and who doesn't. I drop in here occasionally to see how my LDS Talk friends are doing and what is new in their lives.

I personally agree with most of what you post here, ever since you abandoned Christianity and embraced Deism...it inspired me to read up on Deism where I discovered that Deism was a closer definition of my beliefs Taoism, which is why I changed my religion to Deist/Taoist/Buddhist. And hey, I may be confused about the direction this country is heading...but I do believe in the Constitution as a document that inspires good laws for the WORLD. It is very clearly a Deist document, written by Deists...it is evident in the very language it uses. The LDS believe the Constitution is divinely inspired (if I remember correctly)...and I didn't used to agree with that...I thought it was a document created by men...but after reading about Deism and Thomas Jefferson, I realized that this document was divinely inspired, in the same way all rational, compassionate, laws are inspired. And I figured if Deism was good enough for the founders of the American Constitution, it is good enough for me.

Well, I went off on a tangent there...but I wonder...why do you still bother to argue with LDS people?

I gave up on trying to change people's minds so long ago, and I only posted in this thread to defend your point of view, because I strongly believe the same things you do about Moses and Yahweh.

Tao

[Serg]

Tao, what gave you the idea that in the BOM Jesus killed anybody? Letalone millions? Show me the chapter pal, cause i dont remember it so...LOL

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 20 2005, 05:12 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 20 2005, 05:08 PM

What do Aztecs have to do with this discussion???

I'm kinda thinking that you're thinking that Aztecs are the descendants of some Isralietes who migrated to the American continents, and the only way we could really know if the people or events described in the Book of Mormon really existed or happened would be if we had been there during the time those people lived or those events happened, and to that I would say that we didn't need to be there to know that those people existed or those events happened, because we are relying upon Faith, or an assurance from God, to know that those people existed and those events happened.

But we haven't been talking about the Book of Mormon, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

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I was thinking more along the lines of bloodthirsty.

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You sound like the world of tolerance... if Hitler were put on trial today... and you were on the jury... you would vote to aquit...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Oct 20 2005, 07:22 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 20 2005, 02:51 PM

I guess you are in support of enslaving people...for over 400 years... to build useless big buildings... killing millions..... as the Egyptians did...

Grief Jason... get your head on straight will ya?

Wow...

First of all...

The Egyptians killed Millions. So did most other civilizations. So did Yahweh...in the flood...and maybe I am remembering wrong but didn't Jesus kill millions of Lamanites or Nephites in the BoM?

Building useless big buildings...most of those buildings probably served some religious purpose, and as LDS you are supposed to allow people to worship how and where they choose. Its an article of faith. Also, the LDS Church has built one of the largest buildings of worship (the Conference Center) in America. It is meant to honor god, and that is ok with me. On the other hand, there was something Lehi learned about a "large and spacious building":

1 Nephi 12: 18 "And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men."

Now, I guess building a large, spacious building to honor the one true god might be an exception, and I personally have no problem with large, spacious buildings. In fact, they are a testament to man's great achievements in architecture, given to us by God.

As for slavery...the Egyptians approved of it. Who else would?

Yahweh certainly does.

Isn't that exactly what the Israelites did after they escaped captivity?

See Numbers Chapter 31 (expecially verse 15-18).

Yahweh supported slavery, as demonstrated in that chapter and in many others including the Law of Moses that included instructions on how to deal with slaves, rather than forbidding slavery.

The difference? Yahweh did not support the idea of his chosen people being slaves.

Oh, and going back to killing people, Numbers 31 also describes the murder of innocent children as a commandment from Yahweh. And in fact, in Exodus he also killed the innocent Egyptian children, right?

This is a "Heavenly Father?"

Don't get me wrong...I love God as much as the next guy. I believe He is our Heavenly Father (though not necessarily an exalted man, or even an intelligent superbeing, "he" or "it" is our creator and worthy of our love)

I do not believe that Yahweh is that same god, based on what I have read.

←

You have missed most of the doctrinal reasoning behind your facts... and all the warnings, and purpose...

Do you want me to go line by line and detail by detail... it would be easier for you to just pick up the bible and read it with a perspective of God....

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 21 2005, 06:36 AM

Tao, what gave you the idea that in the BOM Jesus killed anybody? Letalone millions?  Show me the chapter pal, cause i dont remember it so...LOL

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I'll need to look that up...I seem to remember something about his destroying entire cities on his visit to the New World.

*Edit...see below.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 21 2005, 07:23 AM

You have missed most of the doctrinal reasoning behind your facts... and all the warnings, and purpose... 

Do you want me to go line by line and detail by detail...

Not really...

But do you believe that genocide and slavery are ok if done for "doctrinal" reasons?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 21 2005, 06:36 AM

Tao, what gave you the idea that in the BOM Jesus killed anybody? Letalone millions?  Show me the chapter pal, cause i dont remember it so...LOL

←

3rd Nephi: Chapter 9

http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9

Maybe it wasn't millions, but he destroyed several cities. He said it was because they were full of wicked people, but I can't help wonder if innocent children were caught in the middle of this destruction. In any case, I don't think a "Heavenly Father" (or his son acting under his command) would kill so many people because they were sinners. I thought the plan of salvation was to let them live their lives and judge them AFTER death/resurrection? Yahweh...even with his history of violence...didn't even destroy the Roman cities in the New Testament, who were arguably just as bad as the BoM sinners...

Any time God kills, it makes Him seem like less of a loving father.

But that is why I don't believe those stories...they are too horrible to be true stories about a loving God.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 20 2005, 05:47 PM

Are you one of those people who believes there is NEVER a good reason for anybody to go to war?... to kill other people???

And btw, the God I worship is not bloodthirsty, despite what you may think, and I think if you understood how He thinks you would better understand why He thinks it's better for some people to die than to continue to live their lives on this Earth.

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I don't believe we should shame the Creator by pretending that we're doing his will in killing others. We're doing our own will, nothing more.

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 20 2005, 07:10 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Oct 20 2005, 06:12 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of bloodthirsty.

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It's such a shame that you waste your intellect in such arguments Jason. It must be lonely in the ivory tower with no one good enough to visit unless they reject the wisdom, morals and principles of thousands of years' experience with God above. Give it a rest bro, why not apply that fifty-pound brain to building people up instead of spinning your tires in the mud. You're not getting anywhere, you have to know that. :) And yes, I welcome in advance your sarcastic, flippant, "devil-may-care" response which is just a veil for uncertainty and bitterness at past experiences and hopes unfulfilled. By all means, continue...

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I must really get under your skin. Is it uncomfortable being such a position as yours? Behold, the champion of priestcraft!

[Jason]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Oct 20 2005, 07:43 PM

Jason,

Go look up the references for youself. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convert you to anything. You're a lost cause. But others who read this thread need to know the other angle, but you are out of the loop.  Duhhhh

You want me to comment on how many Israelites came out of Egypt? Well, I know you don't believe everything you read, so don't put too much stock in those inflated numbers.

Have a nice day, Jason. 

Paul O

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That was a pretty lazy reply coming from someone like you Paul. Needless to say, I expected something more thoughtful. Or at the very least admit that your theory of 200+/- years only makes the story more absurd.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 21 2005, 01:10 PM

Is it uncomfortable being such a position as yours?  Behold, the champion of priestcraft!

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Nope, my chair is actually quite comfy, thanks. :) And you shouldn't talk about yourself like that Jason, really...what WILL people say?

[Setheus]

Wow, I can see it now...

Jesus: Give me back my toy

Satan: No loser, its mine. You get EVERYTHING you want from Father anyways

Jesus: Ya, so give it back or I'll go tell on you...

For those of you who believe....you are sounding like whining babies

For those who dont believe.....you are sounding like whining babies

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 21 2005, 02:15 PM

For those of you who believe....you are sounding like whining babies

For those who dont believe.....you are sounding like whining babies

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Awww, but he started it daddy!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Oct 21 2005, 10:22 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Serg@Oct 21 2005, 06:36 AM

Tao, what gave you the idea that in the BOM Jesus killed anybody? Letalone millions?  Show me the chapter pal, cause i dont remember it so...LOL

←

3rd Nephi: Chapter 9

http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9

Maybe it wasn't millions, but he destroyed several cities. He said it was because they were full of wicked people, but I can't help wonder if innocent children were caught in the middle of this destruction. In any case, I don't think a "Heavenly Father" (or his son acting under his command) would kill so many people because they were sinners. I thought the plan of salvation was to let them live their lives and judge them AFTER death/resurrection? Yahweh...even with his history of violence...didn't even destroy the Roman cities in the New Testament, who were arguably just as bad as the BoM sinners...

Any time God kills, it makes Him seem like less of a loving father.

But that is why I don't believe those stories...they are too horrible to be true stories about a loving God.

←

When people die they simply no longer live among us... but they still go on living. And though a painful death doesn't feel good, it's only temporary, just like a spanking.

Or in other words, God killing people doesn't seem so horrible if you think of it as our heavenly Father deciding that certain people should be sent to another "room", because He wants to make the main "room" more peaceful for everyone else living in there.

And btw, none of us are allowed to kill any of our other brothers or sisters without a good reason, and when any of us break that "rule", we will answer to God for it, just as we will answer to Him for everything else.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2005, 01:03 PM

When people die they simply no longer live among us... they still go on living.  And though a painful death doesn't feel good, it's only temporary, just like a spanking.

Or in other words, think of God killing people as our heavenly Father deciding that certain people should be sent to another "room", because they are no longer fit to live in the same "room" with His other children, and it won't seem so horrible.

And btw, nobody is entitled to intentionally kill another person without good cause, and when any of us break that "rule", we will answer to God for it, just as we will answer to Him for everything else.

Interesting response, Ray. That actually makes sense.

Well, doctrinally that makes sense...if our next life is our "real life" anyway.

On the other hand, isn't spanking considered poor parenting...wouldn't it be better to teach them?

And furthermore, by killing them, I assume they go to Spirit Prison, and as unbelievers will then go to a lower level of Heaven. So is God, by killing these sinners, taking away their chances to redeem themselves in this life and gain Celestial Glory?

I hope that was an interesting response to your interesting response :)

[Ray]

Tao: Well, doctrinally that makes sense...if our next life is our "real life" anyway.

Ray: Our next life is just as real as this one, and we will still be the same person in that world that we are in this one, so don’t be in a hurry to simply go somewhere else.

Tao: On the other hand, isn't spanking considered poor parenting...wouldn't it be better to teach them?

Ray: Yes, a “spanking” is not something that should be used as the routine method to discipline a child, because the affliction of pain doesn’t necessarily teach a child something they need to know, and most children would rather learn what they should know by having a parent or someone else patiently and lovingly teach them something with the use of words, but some children won’t pay attention to someone who simply talks to them, even with all the love and patience of God, so they need something else to get their attention, otherwise they will simply ignore the parent or other person who is trying to teach them something with words… so a spanking or a swat or something else that will “jar” their attention is sometimes appropriate, for some children, or people, in some situations.

Tao: And furthermore, by killing them, I assume they go to Spirit Prison, and as unbelievers will then go to a lower level of Heaven. So is God, by killing these sinners, taking away their chances to redeem themselves in this life and gain Celestial Glory?

Ray: Repentance is still possible in the Spirit World, so No, God is not taking away any opportunity for them to Repent by sending them there. As I said, He is simply sending them to another “room”, and they can Repent “there” as well as here.

And btw, we are told not to wait until we get “there” to Repent because we will have established a pattern of behavior and will pretty much be set in our ways by the time we die at a ripe old age, so it is always better to Repent ASAP, before developing bad habits.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

I really don't want to get into a debate; I really am sick of them, and am not in the mood to get bashed. But I just wanted to point out what I thought was a double standard. Jason and Tao (no hard feelings) are telling all of us LDS folks how wrong and deluded we are; isn't that one of your problems with some of us? That we claim to "know" everything and that everyone else is wrong? That is the same feeling and response that I am getting from you, that you are the experts, and the rest of us are all deluded. (By the same token, I am not saying that the LDS are not without fault.)

I have many, many friends who do not beleive like I do: I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian...I have learned many things from all of them and my strength and faith has grown because of those associations. So I am not saying that sharing differing opinions is wrong, but demeaning someone for what they beleive or say they know, is wrong, no matter who you are or what religion you practice.

[Jason]

Originally posted by ToasterOfen@Oct 21 2005, 02:56 PM

I really don't want to get into a debate; I really am sick of them, and am not in the mood to get bashed.  But I just wanted to point out what I thought was a double standard.  Jason and Tao (no hard feelings) are telling all of us LDS folks how wrong and deluded we are; isn't that one of your problems with some of us? That we claim to "know" everything and that everyone else is wrong?  That is the same feeling and response that I am getting from you, that you are the experts, and the rest of us are all deluded.  (By the same token, I am not saying that the LDS are not without fault.)

I have many, many friends who do not beleive like I do: I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian...I have learned many things from all of them and my strength and faith has grown because of those associations.  So I am not saying that sharing differing opinions is wrong, but demeaning someone for what they beleive or say they know, is wrong, no matter who you are or what religion you practice.

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Well....not exactly. You see, Deists don't have any beliefs. We know that we don't know (because it's not possible), and we know that you don't know either.

That's the sum of the argument.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Well....not exactly. You see, Deists don't have any beliefs. We know that we don't know (because it's not possible), and we know that you don't know either.

That's the sum of the argument.

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I actually have to agree with Tao on this one then: why are you here? If you're trying to tell us we're all crazy, it's falling on deaf ears and we're never going to beleive you, so you might as well save your breath.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by ToasterOfen@Oct 21 2005, 01:56 PM

Jason and Tao (no hard feelings) are telling all of us LDS folks how wrong and deluded we are; isn't that one of your problems with some of us? That we claim to "know" everything and that everyone else is wrong?  That is the same feeling and response that I am getting from you, that you are the experts, and the rest of us are all deluded.  (By the same token, I am not saying that the LDS are not without fault.)

I don't intend to bash anyone...I just thought it looked like Jason was getting bashed, so I thought I would help out a bit.

Granted I do have strong opinions about Moses and Yahweh (as well as Muhammad and Allah, Ivan the Terrible, Vlad the Impaler, Sauron, Darth Vader and other historical and mythological villains), so I can get carried away sometimes...

I do agree with Jason that we know we don't know the truth...that is pretty much how I feel. I don't want to deconvert anyone...why would I? I don't know any of you well enough to care about what church you attend.

And Jason, I didn't mean to say you have no right to be here...I was just curious about why?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2005, 01:43 PM

Repentance is still possible in the Spirit World, so No, God is not taking away any opportunity for them to Repent by sending them there.  As I said, He is simply sending them to another “room”, and they can Repent “there” as well as here.

Well, regardless of the doctrine, I still think killing entire cities full of people is extreme behavior...this genocide would include some innocents...I never heard of a city that was entirely evil, and there must have been innocent children (under 8) who were free of sin. That is poor behavior for Jesus, and even Heavenly Father.

Why cause the pain and suffering, even if it would end with them moving to "another room"?

If I did not consider this a fictional story, I would be very angry at this god.

[BenRaines]

I have enjoyed reading the various comments over the last few days. I do not pretend to have the extensive intellectual knowledge that many of you appear to have or at least you know where to copy another persons talk or viewpoint from a book or a lecture.

I live by this simple credo "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" No healthy person would intentionally do harm to themselves. No one would cheat, steal or otherwise take advantage of themselves.

This is a topic that can be shared with all and is a Christian as well as many other religion's belief.

I believe in sharing it with the rest of the world up to the point they tell me No Thank You. I believe that the injustice done to people in the Inquisition, Crusades and other conquering in the name of Christ was wrong.

I have very strong personal beliefs regarding a loving Heavenly Father and his son Jesus Christ but they are personal and I extend to each individual that same courtesy.

Living a good life and caring about others is what it is about. There will be many Latter Day Saints who will find themselves on the outside looking in if they did not have charity one to another.

Thanks for the space.

BenRaines

[Jason]

Originally posted by ToasterOfen@Oct 21 2005, 03:04 PM

I actually have to agree with Tao on this one then: why are you here?  If you're trying to tell us we're all crazy, it's falling on deaf ears and we're never going to beleive you, so you might as well save your breath.

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I've been posting here since 1998 (back when I was LDS). Why stop now?