Proof That Moses Was A Sham!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 26 2005, 07:05 AM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 24 2005, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 21 2005, 05:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM

As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven.  Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

Hope you don't mind me bolding your italics?

If that's the main criteria...looks like nobody will ever end up in outer darkness. Consider the example set by Yahweh....

←

An inaccurate understanding of a person doesn’t make that person the kind of person someone inaccurately understands them to be, and I’ll be among the first to let you know that you don’t accurately understand my God, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah, aka Yeshua, aka Joshua, aka Jesus… no matter how much you may think you do understand Him correctly.

Then you're understanding is skewed, Ray. I accept as literal the actions and deeds of Yahweh as recorded in the Old Testament. Those actions and deeds are contemptable and unexcusable. If you choose to pretend that those words and deeds are incorrect as written, that's your decision. But doing so only proves my point that the actions of the god of the old testament are so heinous, that even a believer like yourself must try and find excuses for his behavior.

As for me, rather than demean my own intellect, I choose not to produce excuses for this god, and simply state without question that this being is neither a god nor my god.

Amen!

←

Jason: Then you're understanding is skewed, [insert name here].

Ray: Don’t you realize that I just said the same thing to you?

Jason: I accept as literal the actions and deeds of Yahweh as recorded in the Old Testament.

Ray: So do I.

Jason: Those actions and deeds are contemptable and unexcusable.

Ray: Only to someone with a “skewed” understanding of the ramifications of those actions and deeds.

Jason: If you choose to pretend that those words and deeds are incorrect as written, that's your decision.

Ray: I am doing no such thing. I am merely stating that punishing people, including putting people to death, isn’t always a bad thing.

Jason: But doing so only proves my point that the actions of the god of the old testament are so heinous, that even a believer like yourself must try and find excuses for his behavior.

Ray: I’ll put it this way. You consider what God did to be “heinous” because you do not properly understand what God did. Or in other words, you think it was a “bad” thing for God to kill people, and as I have been saying, when God killed those people He wasn’t doing a “bad” thing. You simply need to understand that there are “good” reasons to kill people, and that God is perfectly aware and capable of making those distinctions.

Jason: As for me, rather than demean my own intellect, I choose not to produce excuses for this god, and simply state without question that this being is neither a god nor my god.

Ray: Thanks for sharing your view on this, Jason. I have shared and explained mine.

Amen!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 25 2005, 10:51 PM

Brigham Young also did not exist - scientists will prove that 1000 years from now.  The parallels to Moses make sch an individual an impossible myth created in frontier times.

←

I don't think anyone here is claiming that Moses never existed. It is not his existence that is in question...it is the stories surrounding his life.

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I have a theory...

I believe that Moses probably existed and played and important role in freeing Hebrew slaves from the Egyptians. Those slaves went on to found a nation in the land of Canaan.

But I believe the curses of Yahweh on Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, and other miracle stories are myths that grew out of some sort of oral tradition which probably started between the life of Moses and the birth of the nation he founded. Perhaps the numbers of Hebrew slaves were also exaggerated...that is not important though. What matters is that the myths were created (perhaps by Moses himself) in order to give the Hebrews a justification for their conquest of Canaan, not to mention the supremacy that comes by knowing you are a chosen nation.

Identifying your people as chosen by Yahweh is probably the ultimate form of Nationalism, which was not an idea unique to the Hebrews throughout history...but probably no other myth left such a lasting impression on the entire world.

Unfortunately for Israel, Jesus taught that Yahweh was a multi-national deity, which is one reason why Christianity became so popular. It abandoned the exclusiveness of Moses and embraced the inclusiveness of Jesus.

(As if Israel didn't have enough problems as it was, with the Romans having conquered them and all that...but Jesus was right...no one nation is chosen by God)

[Serg]

Tao:

When speaking of "chosen" by God, it implies that you think He chooses somehow(though not a "nation")

When speaking of a "nation" we understand a "group of many people", not entirely a "flag" or "political party" or an institution with an imperialist agenda.

We dont say God chose Israel out of nowhere, the very bible tells us (old testament) that the other nations were also of the Lord, for He is Father of All. For so we have: HEAR, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to aposses nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and bfenced• up to heaven,

2 A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!

3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bbring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my arighteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the cwickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a astiffnecked people.

Deut.9:1-6

But then again, if you see ALL the other nation as the BOM tells, had a chance to be "worthy" before Him. But none of them wanted so, and the Lord chose the ONLY people that wanted to, and it was hard even for them.

But all the other nations anyways had a chance also, for the prophets were called to preach to all the nations! Thats why they had converts and foreigners in the land, which heard the Lord, as the case with Jonah!

So when Christ came, finally commanded them AGAIN to take the gospel to everybody, for the very Israel accepted it not! And said : Ye worship ye knownot what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. Jn.4:22

And also later:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you(jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mat.21:43

So we dont teach that they were chose because they were.."them" but because they wanted to follow Him. And aso before the creation of this world they were very loyal and recived the Word of Covenant that they shall be his people, but this contradicts not christianity for ALL who come to Him become a descendant of israel in an spiritual sense.

Best regards,

( and oh, you havent answered me where did you get the idea that Jesus in the BOM killed many)

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please+Oct 26 2005, 08:28 AM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 26 2005, 08:10 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Fiannan@Oct 25 2005, 11:51 PM

Brigham Young also did not exist - scientists will prove that 1000 years from now.  The parallels to Moses make sch an individual an impossible myth created in frontier times.

←

Only if we lose his body, tear down his house, and burn his articles of clothing,etc.

And by the way, this is a stupid comparison. Brigham Young was a mere mortal man who did absolutely nothing of a miraculous nature. He caused no plague on the US. Did not turn the Mississippi into blood. He neither spoiled nor plundered a major American city. He did not part a Sea nor cause it to drown an American army.

He was a nobody who did nothing out of the ordinary. Even the Pilgrims underwent greater hardships than the Mormons of the day.

Next?

←

You think you have done such a good job here? HA! How do you burn testimonies from the Holy Ghost? Next?

←

The greater light of Education.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please+Oct 26 2005, 08:31 AM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 26 2005, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 24 2005, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 21 2005, 05:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM

As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven.  Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

Hope you don't mind me bolding your italics?

If that's the main criteria...looks like nobody will ever end up in outer darkness. Consider the example set by Yahweh....

←

An inaccurate understanding of a person doesn’t make that person the kind of person someone inaccurately understands them to be, and I’ll be among the first to let you know that you don’t accurately understand my God, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah, aka Yeshua, aka Joshua, aka Jesus… no matter how much you may think you do understand Him correctly.

Then you're understanding is skewed, Ray. I accept as literal the actions and deeds of Yahweh as recorded in the Old Testament. Those actions and deeds are contemptable and unexcusable. If you choose to pretend that those words and deeds are incorrect as written, that's your decision. But doing so only proves my point that the actions of the god of the old testament are so heinous, that even a believer like yourself must try and find excuses for his behavior.

As for me, rather than demean my own intellect, I choose not to produce excuses for this god, and simply state without question that this being is neither a god nor my god.

Amen!

←

You are in the BofM Jason... infact most of what you do was written about 2000 years ago....

and all brought forth in the BofM... so that we would know what to expect from people in our day and not be bothered by it... knowing in the end... you will be brought before that God you deny and have to make an accounting...

Did you want me to put up the scriptures?

←

Actually the Book of Mormon was written about 175 years ago. And it was written like a Lawyer who tries to preempt his opponent's by thinking up what he will say, then creating a strawman to destroy him.

Not that hard to do really. Im sure Smith or whoever wrote the BoM had plenty of time to get the experience of rejection down before they composed the text.

If you'd like an example, Im sure I could come up with something quick for you.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 26 2005, 02:14 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Oct 26 2005, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 26 2005, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 24 2005, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 21 2005, 05:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM

As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven.  Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

Hope you don't mind me bolding your italics?

If that's the main criteria...looks like nobody will ever end up in outer darkness. Consider the example set by Yahweh....

←

An inaccurate understanding of a person doesn’t make that person the kind of person someone inaccurately understands them to be, and I’ll be among the first to let you know that you don’t accurately understand my God, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah, aka Yeshua, aka Joshua, aka Jesus… no matter how much you may think you do understand Him correctly.

Then you're understanding is skewed, Ray. I accept as literal the actions and deeds of Yahweh as recorded in the Old Testament. Those actions and deeds are contemptable and unexcusable. If you choose to pretend that those words and deeds are incorrect as written, that's your decision. But doing so only proves my point that the actions of the god of the old testament are so heinous, that even a believer like yourself must try and find excuses for his behavior.

As for me, rather than demean my own intellect, I choose not to produce excuses for this god, and simply state without question that this being is neither a god nor my god.

Amen!

←

You are in the BofM Jason... infact most of what you do was written about 2000 years ago....

and all brought forth in the BofM... so that we would know what to expect from people in our day and not be bothered by it... knowing in the end... you will be brought before that God you deny and have to make an accounting...

Did you want me to put up the scriptures?

←

Actually the Book of Mormon was written about 175 years ago. And it was written like a Lawyer who tries to preempt his opponent's by thinking up what he will say, then creating a strawman to destroy him.

Not that hard to do really. Im sure Smith or whoever wrote the BoM had plenty of time to get the experience of rejection down before they composed the text.

If you'd like an example, Im sure I could come up with something quick for you.

←

LOL..

[Jason]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 26 2005, 01:01 PM

Tao:

    When speaking of "chosen" by God, it implies that you think He chooses somehow(though not a "nation")

    When speaking of a "nation" we understand a "group of many people", not entirely a "flag" or "political party" or an institution with an imperialist agenda.

    We dont say God chose Israel out of nowhere, the very bible tells us (old testament) that the other nations were also of the Lord, for He is Father of All. For so we have: HEAR, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to aposses nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and bfenced• up to heaven,

2 A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!

3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bbring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my arighteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the cwickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a astiffnecked people.

    Deut.9:1-6

  But then again, if you see ALL the other nation as the BOM tells, had a chance to be "worthy" before Him. But none of them wanted so, and the Lord chose the ONLY people that wanted to, and it was hard even for them.

        But all the other nations anyways had a chance also, for the prophets were called to preach to all the nations! Thats why they had converts and foreigners in the land, which heard the Lord, as the case with Jonah!

      So when Christ came, finally commanded them AGAIN to take the gospel to everybody, for the very Israel accepted it not! And said :  Ye worship ye knownot what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. Jn.4:22

And also later:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you(jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mat.21:43

    So we dont teach that they were chose because they were.."them" but because they wanted to follow Him. And aso before the creation of this world they were very loyal and recived the Word of Covenant that they shall be his people, but this contradicts not christianity for ALL who come to Him become a descendant of israel in an spiritual sense.

          Best regards,

( and oh, you havent answered me where did you get the idea that Jesus in the BOM killed many)

←

Ok Ray. Let's be fair. The Old Testament was written in a different age from ours. According to the laws of that age, it was not considered "evil" to commit genocide. It was not "evil" do to many of the heinous actions that were done in the name of Yahweh.

And, if you bothered to read the Kant quote in the "evil" thread, you would know that he defines evil as that which defies the law as established by man. Therefore, what was not "evil" back then cannot be called "evil" today. Those actions today would be "evil," but then they were not.

I can live with that.

Yet, judging by my moral standards here in the 21st century, I would call evil anything done that remotely resembles the actions of the OT. I would call those actions criminal, contemptable, heinous, and cruel.

And since we're talking about the directions of a supposedly "loving" god here, I would expect that an all knowing deity would realize that by the 21st century CE, we would look at said actions with shock, horror, and ultimately disgust. Knowing this, Yahweh should have been a bit smarter in what he did, realizing that many would-be followers would leave the fold as a result.

If anyone's to blame for my disbelief in Yahweh....it's Yahweh himself.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 26 2005, 01:29 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Serg@Oct 26 2005, 01:01 PM

Tao:

     When speaking of "chosen" by God, it implies that you think He chooses somehow(though not a "nation")

     When speaking of a "nation" we understand a "group of many people", not entirely a "flag" or "political party" or an institution with an imperialist agenda.

     We dont say God chose Israel out of nowhere, the very bible tells us (old testament) that the other nations were also of the Lord, for He is Father of All. For so we have: HEAR, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to aposses nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and bfenced• up to heaven,

2 A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!

3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bbring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my arighteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the cwickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a astiffnecked people.

    Deut.9:1-6

   But then again, if you see ALL the other nation as the BOM tells, had a chance to be "worthy" before Him. But none of them wanted so, and the Lord chose the ONLY people that wanted to, and it was hard even for them.

        But all the other nations anyways had a chance also, for the prophets were called to preach to all the nations! Thats why they had converts and foreigners in the land, which heard the Lord, as the case with Jonah!

       So when Christ came, finally commanded them AGAIN to take the gospel to everybody, for the very Israel accepted it not! And said :   Ye worship ye knownot what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. Jn.4:22

And also later:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you(jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mat.21:43

     So we dont teach that they were chose because they were.."them" but because they wanted to follow Him. And aso before the creation of this world they were very loyal and recived the Word of Covenant that they shall be his people, but this contradicts not christianity for ALL who come to Him become a descendant of israel in an spiritual sense.

          Best regards,

( and oh, you havent answered me where did you get the idea that Jesus in the BOM killed many)

←

Ok Ray. Let's be fair. The Old Testament was written in a different age from ours. According to the laws of that age, it was not considered "evil" to commit genocide. It was not "evil" do to many of the heinous actions that were done in the name of Yahweh.

And, if you bothered to read the Kant quote in the "evil" thread, you would know that he defines evil as that which defies the law as established by man. Therefore, what was not "evil" back then cannot be called "evil" today. Those actions today would be "evil," but then they were not.

I can live with that.

Yet, judging by my moral standards here in the 21st century, I would call evil anything done that remotely resembles the actions of the OT. I would call those actions criminal, contemptable, heinous, and cruel.

And since we're talking about the directions of a supposedly "loving" god here, I would expect that an all knowing deity would realize that by the 21st century CE, we would look at said actions with shock, horror, and ultimately disgust. Knowing this, Yahweh should have been a bit smarter in what he did, realizing that many would-be followers would leave the fold as a result.

If anyone's to blame for my disbelief in Yahweh....it's Yahweh himself.

←

Anyone can come up with reasoning to support a view. I think our goal should be to learn the truth, which can best be done by learning from God, because God will never deceive us.

And remember, God is the word or name we use to refer to the being who always tells the truth, and Satan is the word or name we use for the deceiver, so if you're thinking that God would ever lie to you, you're not referring to the God I worship.

And FYI, whether you know it or not, or believe it or not, I pray and talk with God.

And btw, please don't bother to tell me that you think I am or am being deceived, because I am not listening to you anymore, and I see no reason to, when I can and do talk with God.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 26 2005, 12:01 PM

     So we dont teach that they were chose because they were.."them" but because they wanted to follow Him. And aso before the creation of this world they were very loyal and recived the Word of Covenant that they shall be his people, but this contradicts not christianity for ALL who come to Him become a descendant of israel in an spiritual sense.

          Best regards,

( and oh, you havent answered me where did you get the idea that Jesus in the BOM killed many)

←

I know the LDS do not teach what I wrote in my last post...I was just stating that this was my opinion of what was really going on, and that I disagree with the literal interpretation of the OT as taught by the Judeo-Christian religions.

As for Jesus killing lots of people, I gave you the quote somewhere above...I'll try to find it and copy it to a new post.

*Edit: Here it is, copied from a few pages back...

3rd Nephi: Chapter 9

http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9

Maybe it wasn't millions, but he destroyed several cities. He said it was because they were full of wicked people, but I can't help wonder if innocent children were caught in the middle of this destruction. In any case, I don't think a "Heavenly Father" (or his son acting under his command) would kill so many people because they were sinners. I thought the plan of salvation was to let them live their lives and judge them AFTER death/resurrection? Yahweh...even with his history of violence...didn't even destroy the Roman cities in the New Testament, who were arguably just as bad as the BoM sinners...

Any time God kills, it makes Him seem like less of a loving father.

But that is why I don't believe those stories...they are too horrible to be true stories about a loving God.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 26 2005, 12:29 PM

Ok Ray. Let's be fair.  The Old Testament was written in a different age from ours.  According to the laws of that age, it was not considered "evil" to commit genocide.  It was not "evil" do to many of the heinous actions that were done in the name of Yahweh. 

←

Yeah - I'd have to disagree with that. I bet the Philistines had lots of rules or beliefs about not being killed by the Israelites, and vice versa.

[Serg]

And as to Jason, hey what about Kant? He was a great thinker, but you only use his thoughts when it is convinient for you, what about his cathegoric imperative? Do you APPLY that in your life? Because its one of the most precious "thoughts of men"towards "rightousness"that i've ever seen. So u dare to explain it to your fellow forum companions?

[harrypotter]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 21 2005, 03:00 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-ToasterOfen@Oct 21 2005, 02:56 PM

I really don't want to get into a debate; I really am sick of them, and am not in the mood to get bashed.  But I just wanted to point out what I thought was a double standard.  Jason and Tao (no hard feelings) are telling all of us LDS folks how wrong and deluded we are; isn't that one of your problems with some of us? That we claim to "know" everything and that everyone else is wrong?  That is the same feeling and response that I am getting from you, that you are the experts, and the rest of us are all deluded.  (By the same token, I am not saying that the LDS are not without fault.)

I have many, many friends who do not beleive like I do: I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian...I have learned many things from all of them and my strength and faith has grown because of those associations.  So I am not saying that sharing differing opinions is wrong, but demeaning someone for what they beleive or say they know, is wrong, no matter who you are or what religion you practice.

←

THE CALLING OF MOSES.

II

IT is difficult to decide whether Moses enjoyed his education while the Institute was in its flourishing condition, or while it approached its corruption; there is no doubt, however, but that it commenced to decline, if we may judge from a few less commendable artifices, resorted to by the Hebrew lawgiver. But the spirit of its founder had not yet altogether disappeared, and the doctrine of the unity of the Creator still rewarded the initiated.

This doctrine which had, as its inevitable consequence, the most decided contempt for idolatry, in connection with the doctrine of the immortality, from which it could hardly be separated, was that rich treasure which the young Hebrew obtained from the mysteries of Isis. He was at the same time herein made familiar with physics, which formed a part of the secret sciences, and it was this knowledge which subsequently enabled him to work miracles, and in presence of Pharaoh, to compete with his own teachers, or the magicians, whom he in some instances excelled. His early life shows that he was an apt and attentive scholar, and that he in intuitive power, and as a seer, had reached the highest degree attainable.

In this school he gathered a real treasure in hieroglyphics, mysterious figures and ceremonies, which his ingenious spirit afterwards made use of. He had gone through the entire category of Egyptian wisdom, made himself thoroughly familiar with the system of the priests, its defects and advantages, carefully compared its weakness and strength, and closely investigated the form of government of these people.

It is not known how long he remained in the school of the priests, but his subsequent political career, in which he first appeared in his eightieth year, makes us infer that during twenty years or more he applied himself to the study of the mysteries and the policy of the state. His sojourn among the priests seems not in the least to have prevented him from associating with his own people, and he had ample opportunity to witness the nameless misery they endured.

The Egyptian education had not robbed him of his patriotic sentiment. The illtreatment of his people reminded him that he also was a Hebrew, and a feeling of just indignation filled his heart whenever he witnessed their suffering. The more he himself commenced to feel, the more he rebelled against the unworthy treatment of his people.

At one time he saw one of the Hebrews brutally beaten by an Egyptian overseer, and this so enraged him, that he killed the Egyptian. The rumor of this deed soon spread, and his life being in danger, he was bound to flee from Egypt, and seek refuge in the Arabian desert. Many assert that this flight occurred in his eightieth year, but without proofs. It is enough for us to know that he could no longer be young at this period.

With this exile commences a new epoch of his life, and if we desire to form a correct opinion of his future political career in Egypt, we must accompany him in his solitude in Arabia. He brought with him into the Arabian wilderness a burning hatred towards the oppressors of his people, and all the knowledge that he had obtained from the mysteries. His mind was full of ideas and projects, his heart full of bitterness, and no one to divert his thoughts in those immeasurable wilds, void of human beings. He is said to have tended the sheep of an Arabian Bedouin, Jethro. How deep a fall from all his glorious prospects in Egypt to a simple shepherd in Arabia! From a future ruler of nations, to become a hireling to a nomad! How deeply this must have wounded his soul! Under the plain attire of a simple swain, he carries the ardent soul of a commander—a restless ambition. In this romantic wilderness, where the present has nothing to offer him, he finds relief in the past and future, and is entertained by his own quiet thoughts. All the scenes of oppression, which he had witnessed, now passed in review before him, and no softening influence prevented their stinging deep into his heart. Nothing is more unendurable to a great soul than to suffer injustice; and in this instance it still more aggravated him, as it was his own people who suffered. A noble pride awakened in his bosom; a passionate desire to press forward, and to act, is coupled to this wounded pride.

All that which has taken him long years to accomplish, all his achievements and beautiful plans, must all perish with him in this wilderness! Has he then thought and labored in vain? This very thought is unendurable to his fiery soul. But he will not succumb to this seeming inevitable fate; this wilderness shall not be the final limit to his activity; the great being, whom he learned to know in the mysteries, has surely intended him for something extraordinary. In his quietude and loneliness his imagination is spurred by what touches nearest his heart, the interest of his oppressed people. Similar sentiments seek each other, and the unhappy will, as a matter of choice, side with misfortune. In Egypt he would be an Egyptian, a hierophant, a general. In Arabia he is a Hebrew. Grand and glorious is the idea, as it rises above all other considerations "I will deliver this people."

But how could it be possible to accomplish this undertaking? Insurmountable obstacles rise up before him, and those which he had to combat among his own people were by far the most difficult of them all. There can be found neither unity nor confidence, neither selfwill nor courage, neither public spirit nor enthusiasm, to spur them to action; a long and oppressive slavery, a misery during four long centuries, have thoroughly destroyed those sentiments. The people whom he should deliver were no more capable than worthy of such an enterprise. He could expect nothing from this people themselves, and still he can do nothing without them. What course could he then pursue? Before he undertook their deliverance, he must make them capable of this success. He must replace them in possession of those human rights and privileges which they had lost. He must restore to them these attributes which a long estrangement has destroyed in them; that is, he must awaken within them hope, confidence, heroism, enthusiasm, etc. But these sentiments could only rest upon a feeling (whether true or false) of independent power, and how should the slaves of the Egyptians ever be able to acquire such a faculty? Suppose even that he succeeded, through his eloquence, to persuade them for a time, would not this enthusiasm, thus artificially produced, give way at the first approach of danger? Would they not relapse into their former diffidence and become still more abject than before?

Here comes the Egyptian priest and statesman in timely aid to the Hebrew. From his Mysteries, from his ecclesiastical school at Heliopolis, he remembers the effective agency, through which a small order of priests would control millions of ignorant men and women. This agency is nothing more nor less than an implicit confidence in supernatural protection, faith in supernatural power. Now, as he cannot discover anything in this mundane sphere, in the natural order of things, by which he can produce courage in the hearts of his countrymen, he directs their attention towards heaven. And as he cannot hope to inspire them with confidence in their own strength, he must bring them under the guidance of a god possessing such power. Should he thus succeed in infusing into their minds a feeling of confidence in this god, then he has made them strong and dauntless, and the confidence in this higher power is the flame that shall kindle all other virtues and powers. If he only can prove himself to his brethren the legitimate representative of this god, then they are at his command in every way, and he can lead them wherever he pleases. But now arises the question, which god shall Moses represent, and how shall he prevail upon them to place implicit faith and confidence in him? Shall he proclaim the only true god, Jao or Jehova, the one that he learned to know in the Mysteries? How could he confide the most sacred truth, the inheritance of only a few Egyptian wise men to a slavish rabble, when to comprehend such truth requires a high degree of intelligence and mental culture? How could he flatter himself with the hope that the out cast of Egypt can understand that which the choicest of the land can but partially appreciate?

But suppose even that he should succeed in imparting to the Hebrews a knowledge of the true god, it would be of no advantage to them in their present situation, and their accepting this deity would sooner destroy than promote his project. The true god took no more interest in the Hebrews than in any other people. The true god could not fight their battles, and could not suspend the laws of nature for their special accommodation. Had he not allowed them to fight their own battles with the Egyptians during four hundred years without interfering by miracle, or any other manifestation of his power, in their behalf, how could they then place their hope or confidence in him? Shall he proclaim a fabulous god, contrary to his own judgment, and whom the Mysteries have taught him to despise? His mind is too enlightened and his heart too noble to allow him such treacherous proceedings. He will not make a falsehood the foundation of his noble deed. The enthusiasm which now animates him would not lend its fire to sustain a deception, and such a contemptible character, so opposed to his conviction, would soon rob him of courage, joy and perseverance, and land him in helpless misery. He wants his kind act in favor of his people to be a grand success; he will not only make them independent, he will make them happy and enlightened. He will make the foundation of his work to stand forever.

It must, then, be founded on principles of truth—not upon deception. But how can he harmonize these contradictions? He cannot present before them the true god, because they are unable to comprehend him; he will not announce a fabled deity, because this is contrary to his own conviction. He has, then no other choice than to proclaim his own true god in a fabulous manner. Now he tries his religion of reason, to ascertain what he must give and take in order to secure a successful issue among the Hebrews. He places himself in their situation, in their contracted sphere, spying into their souls to discover, if possible, those secret sympathies concealed there, by which he might connect his great truths. Consequently he attaches to his god those peculiar attributes which the comprehension of the Hebrews, and their present demands, require. He adapts his Jao to the people to whom he desires to introduce him; he adapts him to the circumstances under which he brings him to their notice, and thus originates his Jehova. His people have certainly got faith in divine things, but this faith is degenerated into the most degrading superstition. This superstition he must destroy, but preserve the faith, and only turn it away from its unworthy object and direct it towards his true god. The superstition itself furnishes him with means for this purpose. According to the general fancy of these times, each people stood under the special protection of a national deity, and it gratified the native pride to place this deity over the gods of all other people, as the greatest and mightiest of them all. They did not deny them (the gods of others) their divine character, but they must not be exalted above the national god. And Moses used this delusion as the foundation for his truth. He made the original deity of the Mysteries the national god of the Hebrews, but he went still further. He was not satisfied by only making this national deity the mightiest of all other gods, but he made him the only one and overthrew all the rest. He gave him to the Hebrews as their own, in order to adapt him to their imagination, but he placed him also over all other people and all the powers of nature. Thus he saved in the image, in which he presented him before the Hebrews, the two most important attributes of his true god, unity and omnipotence, and made them more effective under this human garb.

The vain, childish pride, in desiring to possess an independent deity, must now serve the interest of truth in securing the acceptance of his doctrine. It is indeed an uncertain faith, by which he intends to replace the old one, but this new faith is certainly much nearer the truth than the one he will supplant; and it is in reality by adding this seeming deception that he secures the best success of his truth; and it is through this foreseen misapprehension of his doctrine that this gain is secured. What use would a philosophical deity have been to the Hebrews? With this national god, however, he can accomplish wonders. Let us for a moment imagine ourselves in the place of the Hebrews. Ignorant, as they are, they measure the power of the gods according to the success of the people placed under their protection. Neglected and oppressed by men, the Hebrews believe themselves at the same time forgotten by the gods; and they conclude that in the same relation in which they stand to the Egyptians in the same ratio must their god stand to those of the Egyptians; he must be a small light in comparison, or they doubt, in reality, if they have any god at all. All at once it was proclaimed to them that they also had a protector above the starry vault, and that this protector has awakened out of his long slumber and is prepared to perform great things among their enemies.

This divine announcement is like the call of a commander to gather under his triumphant banners. If this commander now gives proofs of his power, or if they recognize him from old, then will the enthusiasm fill the most fainthearted with courage, and even this advantage was brought into account by Moses in his future plans. The conversation which he had with the apparition in the burning bush, causes us the same doubt which Moses himself entertains, as well as the manner in which he has answered the same. Will my unhappy people place implicit confidence in a god who so long has neglected them, and who now so suddenly claims their attention, whose name they have not even heard pronounced, and who, for centuries has been a dumb spectator of their misery and woe heaped upon them by their heartless oppressors? Will they not sooner consider the god of their fortunate enemies as the mightiest? These were the urgent considerations that filled the heart of the new prophet. In what manner, however, does he meet these scruples? He makes his Jao the god of their forefathers, and links him to their old legends, and thus metamorphosed into a native deity, he is looked upon as a familiar god of old. But to show that he means the only true God, to prevent any confounding whatever, with any other image of a superstitious character, and to avoid all possible misapprehension, Moses gives him that very name by which he is known in the mysteries. I am the same forever Say to the people Israel, so sayeth the Lord, he has sent me to you.

To the ignorant Hebrews, however, this name must sound unfamiliar. It must be impossible for them thereby to form any conception, and Moses would certainly have achieved more by any other name; but he would sooner face this inconvenience than to give up an idea upon which so much depended, and this was to make the Hebrews acquainted with that same God represented in the mysteries of Isis. As it is pretty certain that the Egyptian mysteries had already been demoralized when Jehovah appeared to Moses in the burning bush, it is a striking fact that He gives him that particular name by which he was known before in the mysteries of Isis.

But it is not sufficient that Jehovah appeared before the Hebrews as a god of old, as a god of their forefathers; He must also prove Himself a god of superior power to claim their confidence; and this was the more necessary because they had not learned to entertain a very high opinion of Him as their protector, on account of their misfortunes in Egypt. If Moses, then, would justify his calling, he must support it with great and wonderful deeds. And we need have no doubt but what he has performed these wonders; but how, and in what way we are to view them we will leave to our readers to reflect upon. The communication in which Moses conveys his calling, has all the requirements necessary to secure the faith and confidence of the Hebrews, and this was all for which it was calculated. We know, for instance, that it is immaterial to the Creator of the world when He should conclude to appear to a human being in fire or in wind, whether He was approached by uncovered feet or not. Moses, however, puts this command into the mouth of his Jehovah to take the shoes off his feet, while he stood upon holy ground; because Moses knew very well that by such an outward token of respect, he strengthened the impression of divine holiness among the Hebrews; one of his experiences in the initiation of the mysteries. And thus he, no doubt, took into consideration that, for instance, his awkward manner of speech would be a drawback to him—consequently he provided against this inconvenience—he brings this objection into his communication, and Jehovah must come to his rescue. And only when his many scruples have been allayed, he accepts his calling. In this manner he adds importance to the divine mandate, and makes it more impressive upon the minds of his people. That these and similar precautions were necessary, we have no reason to doubt, and that Moses fully realized the importance of securing, in every way possible, the confidence of the Israelites, upon which depended his entire success.

Taking everything into consideration, what was really the plan which Moses so carefully studied out in the Arabian Desert? He desired to lead the Israelites out of Egypt to freedom and independence, and to give them a free constitution and a country exclusively their own. But while he knew the many obstacles and difficulties which he had to contend with; while he knew that he could not count upon the individual strength of this people, until they acquired confidence in themselves, courage, hope and enthusiasm; while he foresaw that his efforts and all his persuasion would have no effect upon the slavish disposition of the Hebrews, he realizes that he must place them under supernatural protection, and gather them under the standard of a divine commander. He gives them a god in order, in the first place, to deliver them out of Egypt; but this is not enough, as he must secure to them another country in place of the one he takes away from them; and while they must first conquer the other country with armed force, and then maintain themselves therein, it is the more necessary for him to keep them united in one body politic, and to do this, he must provide them with suitable laws and a constitution.

But as a priest and a statesman, he is fully convinced that the strongest and most essential pillar of any and all political combinations is religion; that God, therefore, whom he gave them for their deliverance from Egypt as only a commander-in-chief, must also be employed in their legislation; he must therefore introduce Him in accordance with the manner in which he intends to employ Him. But for founding the state and for legislative purposes he must have the true God, because as he himself is a great and noble human soul, he will not have a falsehood as the foundation for a work that is to last forever. He will make the Hebrews happy, and for ever happy, through the arrangement which he has intended for them, and this is only possible by making truth and justice the foundation of his legislation. But their power of comprehension is, however, yet too insipid, too blunt, for this truth; he cannot therefore bring it to them through the legitimate way of reason. And while he cannot convince them by argument, he must persuade and bribe them. He must therefore equip the god whom he has introduced to them with attributes adapted and commendable to their feeble conceptions; he must apply to him the outward garb of a heathen, and feel satisfied when the people approach him accordingly. By this he secures a very great advantage—that the foundation of his legislation is true and need not be torn down by any future reformer, which, however, is the inevitable consequence with all false religions when brought under the touch of reason.

All other states at this and subsequent times were founded upon error, deception and idolatry, although, as we have seen, there was in Egypt a small society of people who entertained correct ideas concerning the highest being. Moses, who belonged to this society to whom he is indebted for his knowledge of the true God, is the first one who dared not only proclaim these secret results of the mysteries publicly, but makes them the foundation of an entire state. He is consequently looked upon by the world and posterity as a traitor to the mysteries, while he imparts to an entire nation a truth which was orginally the exclusive possession of a few wise men, or seers. He could not, however, impart to the Hebrews, in connection with the new religion, the understanding necessary to comprehend it, and in this the Egyptian seers had a great advantage over them. The seers acknowledged the truth through their reason; the Hebrews could at best but blindly believe it.

This brief outline has been drawn in accordance with the ideas of the above mentioned writers, and although the Latter-day Saints have a higher and purer knowledge, from an inspired source, of this wonderful dispensation, it may still be interesting to some to see how the world has been taught to look upon Moses and his works in Egypt. I look back with awe and wonder upon those solemn scenes, that draw our sympathies back into the very night of time, before Troy, before Memphis; scenes full of sadness and woe, sighing a faint echo across the placid waters of the imperial Nile. J. S.

A once famous quack doctor headed his advertisement: "Ho! all ye dyspeptics!" That's just what dyspeptics won't do. If they would all hoe vigorously, they would not need any other medicine.

Well....not exactly. You see, Deists don't have any beliefs. We know that we don't know (because it's not possible), and we know that you don't know either.

That's the sum of the argument.

←

[Jason]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 27 2005, 10:16 AM

And as to Jason, hey what about Kant? He was a great thinker, but you only use his thoughts when it is convinient for you, what about his cathegoric imperative? Do you APPLY that in your life? Because its one of the most precious "thoughts of men"towards "rightousness"that i've ever seen. So u dare to explain it to your fellow forum companions?

←

I think you mean Kant's Categorical Imperative? Im not sure what you're getting at here, but his CI is boiled down to understanding that morality is determined by reason alone, and that one should obey said morality for the respect of reason, not some imaginary deity.

Now, would you be so kind as to explain how Kant's rather Deistic approach to morality has anything to do with what we're talking about?

[Ray]

I don't know if I'm thinking along the same lines as Serg or not, but I also think we should do what is right merely because it is the right thing to do, not just because God has told us what is right, though there is no good reason not to listen to God if He knows what is right and tells us.

And btw, I believe God does know what is right, which is why I listen to Him.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 31 2005, 04:54 PM

I don't know if I'm thinking along the same lines as Serg or not, but I also think we should do what is right merely because it is the right thing to do, not just because God has told us what is right, though there is no good reason not to listen to God if He knows what is right and tells us.

And btw, I believe God does know what is right, which is why I listen to Him.

←

I don't think that Serg even knew what Serg was trying to say. I agree with you on the point that what is right, is right whether or not there is any supposed blessings attached to it.

As the founder of German Idealism, Kant was a firm believer in Reason over Religion. His thinking influenced many philosophers since his time, and was a major foundation-stone of the Deistic movement.

That's a big reason why Im studying his works.

Ray, I know we've been down this road before, but why do you insist on attaching your "god talks to me" line on nearly every post? You're starting to sound kinda nuts.

Even your prophets don't talk like that, Ray.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 31 2005, 05:22 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 31 2005, 04:54 PM

I don't know if I'm thinking along the same lines as Serg or not, but I also think we should do what is right merely because it is the right thing to do, not just because God has told us what is right, though there is no good reason not to listen to God if He knows what is right and tells us.

And btw, I believe God does know what is right, which is why I listen to Him.

←

I don't think that Serg even knew what Serg was trying to say. I agree with you on the point that what is right, is right whether or not there is any supposed blessings attached to it.

As the founder of German Idealism, Kant was a firm believer in Reason over Religion. His thinking influenced many philosophers since his time, and was a major foundation-stone of the Deistic movement.

That's a big reason why Im studying his works.

Ray, I know we've been down this road before, but why do you insist on attaching your "god talks to me" line on nearly every post? You're starting to sound kinda nuts.

Even your prophets don't talk like that, Ray.

←

I'm merely trying to point out how important I believe it is to seek knowledge and inspiration from God. And contrary to your last statement, prophets do that too.