What Do Lds Apostles Have That We Don't?

[Serg]

I agree with you Ray, and would also add that once an artist was doing a painting of Christ and painted the eyes honey brown, and presindent Kimball said it was wrong, the people said, "well why"?

And he said he knew for he saw Him.

I support that the Apostles(not necessarily all) have seen the Christ. The Prophet has to be sealed with election sure and then see the Lord, just as we could. By saying this we dont say that they get a witness more valuable that ours, but that they WORK for it enough to have it, and they (for their calling sake') have to have that witness, for if it would be sufficient to say : I know Christ lives, just because of the Spirit confirmation, then their calling would have no necessity for the whole point of being an apostle is as with the apostles of old, to give witness of knowing literally that their Lord lives, and they have witnessed his resurection. Our testimony is still true and very valuable but their calling is to tell us THEY HAVE seen Him, and we BELIEVE them and through the spirit know its true. we have : And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.

3 And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God;

4 And this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may not be destroyed, that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work. D&C.17;2-4

and also: Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might aknow concerning the truth of these things.

23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

24 And now, behold, you have received a witness; for if I have btold you things which no man knoweth have you not received a witness?

section 6 of D&C.

Best regards,

[Ray]

Originally posted by Serg

…if it would be sufficient to say : I know Christ lives, just because of the Spirit confirmation, then their calling would have no necessity for the whole point of being an apostle is as with the apostles of old, to give witness of knowing literally that their Lord lives, and they have witnessed his resurrection. Our testimony is still true and very valuable but their calling is to tell us THEY HAVE seen Him, and we BELIEVE them and through the spirit know its true.

I agree that those called as apostles literally know that our Lord lives, and that He was indeed resurrected, but again, I do not believe a “physical” manifestation is a necessary element in their being able to know that.

And as I said before, if their calling consist of being able to tell us they have seen him, I’m surprised that I’ve never ‘seen’ or ‘heard’ or ‘read anything from’ them indicating they all have actually seen him, physically, which btw would be necessary if that was what it meant by saying that an apostle is a “special” witness.

Or in other words, if all apostles must have physically seen our risen Lord, because that is what it means to say that an apostle is a “special” witness, then no man would be able to be an apostle of our Lord without having physically seen our risen Lord, which is contrary to what you just said about how [not necessarily all] have seen him.

Anyway, I think most of you are failing to understand what I am trying to say, and instead of telling you about how I do not agree with all you have said, perhaps I should simply explain how I believe an apostle is a special witness even if an apostle hasn’t physically seen our risen Lord.

… and I believe there is no better way for me to say I know that without saying I know they are, even if they may not have physically seen Him yet.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

ApostleKnight : … and I believe there is no better way for me to say I know that without saying I know they are, even if they may not have physically seen Him yet.

If they have been called... they must still be chosen... we just don't have to know at what stage of development they are... all we have to know is they were called by God for this purpose.

[Serg]

I agree Ray, but try reading Mormon doctrine by McConkie and let me know later brother. I know it would be useful as it was for me.

LOL.

Take care,

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 26 2005, 01:43 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Oct 26 2005, 12:38 AM

What do they themselves say? All else is fluff.

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, "Oh, and the prophet goes there too...he's got a room set aside for him." Holy of Holies perhaps? :)

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Not a Holy of Holies. I have a dear friend who works(Im a Temple Missionary there) at the Seattle Temple and she says it's nothing more than a closet sized room with a door.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Nov 2 2005, 03:33 AM

Not a Holy of Holies.  I have a dear friend who works(Im a Temple Missionary there) at the Seattle Temple and she says it's nothing more than a closet sized room with a door.

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I have a friend serving a temple mission at the Seattle Temple too actually, small world. :) However, unless my friend or yours has ever been in the room...how can you categorically say what it is or isn't? Not that my testimony rests on all temples HAVING to have a Holy of Holies...but if you read in the OT, the original Mosaic Holy of Holies (Kodesh ha Kodashim in Hebrew) wasn't terribly large. Closet-sized is pretty ambiguous...I've seen some pretty huge walk-in closets myself.

But then, maybe the prophet likes walking all the way to the 5th floor to hang his coat in his special closet. :)

[Ray]

The Prophet Joseph received many revelations while praying in a closet, and a very small closet at that, so the size of the closet really doesn't matter unless your trying to get more than one person in there.

And btw, if our Lord did choose to make a personal appearance on this Earth, today, I believe it would probably be in a temple, though probably not in a closet with another person already in there.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 2 2005, 01:14 PM

I believe it would probably be in a temple, though probably not in a closet with another person already in there.

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And I believe you have the right to believe that, even though I don't believe that (being limited by a closet, that is).

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Nov 2 2005, 11:51 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 2 2005, 01:14 PM

I believe it would probably be in a temple, though probably not in a closet with another person already in there.

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And I believe you have the right to believe that, even though I don't believe that (being limited by a closet, that is).

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I did not say [nor do I believe] our Lord is "limited" by a closet. I said I believe our Lord would probably choose not to personally appear in a closet when someone else is already in there...especially a closet that is barely big enough for one person... because I believe our Lord would probably want to appear somewhere where two people can be more comfortable.

And if anyone has still failed to catch my drift, I'll say it like this. Our Lord is a person, with a tangible body which is much like ours in form, so He would need to "scrunch" into a small closet just like anybody else would if there was barely enough room for Him to be in there. And as I said, I believe He would probably prefer to personally appear in a place where He can be more comfortable.

And btw, our Lord would not limited by a closet because He could make the closer bigger or just remove the walls.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Nov 2 2005, 12:04 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-porterrockwell@Nov 2 2005, 03:33 AM

Not a Holy of Holies.  I have a dear friend who works(Im a Temple Missionary there) at the Seattle Temple and she says it's nothing more than a closet sized room with a door.

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I have a friend serving a temple mission at the Seattle Temple too actually, small world. :) However, unless my friend or yours has ever been in the room...how can you categorically say what it is or isn't? Not that my testimony rests on all temples HAVING to have a Holy of Holies...but if you read in the OT, the original Mosaic Holy of Holies (Kodesh ha Kodashim in Hebrew) wasn't terribly large. Closet-sized is pretty ambiguous...I've seen some pretty huge walk-in closets myself.

But then, maybe the prophet likes walking all the way to the 5th floor to hang his coat in his special closet. :)

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I only know of the solom assembly room they took us into as missionaries in Salt Lake...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Ray : And btw, our Lord would not limited by a closet because He could make the closer bigger or just remove the walls.

Or just take you to the nearest high mountain top.... :)

[Ray]

Yeah, yeah, smartypants, but I was referring to how He would appear in a closet. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

It could be both you know...

[Ray]

Heh, yeah, I suppose, if the closet was at the top of a mountain or He took it there. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 2 2005, 04:01 PM

Heh, yeah, I suppose, if the closet was at the top of a mountain or He took it there.  :)

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[Ray]

Do those smilies signify that you don’t understand what I am saying?

Heh, I’m simply saying that if our Lord is going to physically appear in a closet, He will make sure the closet is big enough for His body to fit in the closet, wherever the closet is or wherever He might move the closet.

Can you understand me now?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 2 2005, 05:01 PM

Do those smilies signify that you don’t understand what I am saying?

Heh, I’m simply saying that if our Lord is going to physically appear in a closet, He will make sure the closet is big enough for His body to fit in the closet, wherever the closet is or wherever He might move the closet.

Can you understand me now?

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ROFL Ray you are cracking me up!!! Think about God... and then think about His reality... not ours...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 2 2005, 06:01 PM

Heh, I’m simply saying that if our Lord is going to physically appear in a closet, He will make sure the closet is big enough for His body to fit in the closet, wherever the closet is or wherever He might move the closet.

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You're still assuming the prophet's room on the 5th floor of the Seattle Temple is only about three by four feet. Who said that? The earlier poster who said their temple worker friend said it was a closet-sized room has not deemed to clarify with dimensions as "closet-sized" is ambiguous and useless in the context of this discussion.

I just think it'd be silly to construct a small, only-room-for-one-person closet on the 5th floor of the temple. But then again, I don't claim absolute knowledge about it...maybe the prophet just likes praying in a small room away from everyone where he can be higher than everything else and closest to heaven as far as height goes. Maybe.

I'm not really interested in debating whether or not the room is a Holy of Holies since I haven't been in it and the ordinance worker training us veil workers didn't elaborate on "the prophet's room" as he called it. Unless someone has proof whether the room is/is not a Holy of Holies (beyond just "my friend said it's a small room," that's hardly conclusive), we might as well get back to discussing the apostles.

Sorry for the detour, I didn't expect the closet-sized room to gather such interest. :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by Please+Nov 2 2005, 04:20 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 2 2005, 05:01 PM

Do those smilies signify that you don’t understand what I am saying?

Heh, I’m simply saying that if our Lord is going to physically appear in a closet, He will make sure the closet is big enough for His body to fit in the closet, wherever the closet is or wherever He might move the closet.

Can you understand me now?

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ROFL Ray you are cracking me up!!! Think about God... and then think about His reality... not ours...

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What are you thinking, Please?

Sorry, but I can't read your mind right now, at least not on this.

And btw, I believe God's reality is a lot more like ours than most people imagine.

Or in other words, heaven consists of other planets, some of those other planets are occupied by other people, and one of those persons is our Lord Jesus Christ. Do you realize that?

Or in other words, our Lord has a physical body which uses space just as any other person with a body does, so if our Lord ever wants to physically appear in a closet, you can be sure that He'll make sure He can fit in that closet.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 2 2005, 05:59 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Nov 2 2005, 04:20 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 2 2005, 05:01 PM

Do those smilies signify that you don’t understand what I am saying?

Heh, I’m simply saying that if our Lord is going to physically appear in a closet, He will make sure the closet is big enough for His body to fit in the closet, wherever the closet is or wherever He might move the closet.

Can you understand me now?

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ROFL Ray you are cracking me up!!! Think about God... and then think about His reality... not ours...

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What are you thinking, Please?

Sorry, but I can't read your mind right now, at least not on this.

And btw, I believe God's reality is a lot more like ours than most people imagine.

Or in other words, heaven consists of other planets, some of those other planets are occupied by other people, and one of those persons is our Lord Jesus Christ. Do you realize that?

Or in other words, our Lord has a physical body which uses space just as any other person with a body does, so if our Lord ever wants to physically appear in a closet, you can be sure that He'll make sure He can fit in that closet.

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Well... this world is put into a certain dimension... but it is where reality is in the mind of the beholder... where as God's reality is reality.

Now... when you realize what time does to reality... God's reality... you will see what is in my mind...

When I died... this reality disapated like a tv being turned off...

[Ray]

I know there are some things on this Earth that we can't see right now, and that there are other dimensions on this Earth, but that doesn't meant we don't "really" experience what we are experiencing right now. It is all real.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 2 2005, 06:13 PM

I know there are some things on this Earth that we can't see right now, and that there are other dimensions on this Earth, but that doesn't meant we don't "really" experience what we are experiencing right now.  It is all real.

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Not like you think...

[Ray]

I’m not sure that you really know what I think about this, so perhaps I should try to explain again.

What I am saying to you is that all the living beings we see are real, and all the inanimate objects we see are real, in that we all consist of elements and all of those elements of which we consist are real.

Or in other words, the world as we know it isn’t a dream, and it isn’t some kind of virtual reality like in the Matrix movies either. And while there is a lot more going on in this world than most of us are aware of, the things we are aware of are as real as anything ever will be, and we will all look back at the experiences we have lived while knowing we really did what we did, and saw what we saw, and heard what we heard, etc, even though we will all see things differently then.

Or in other words, I am saying that I am really saying what I am saying to you, and you are really hearing what you think you are hearing from me, even though there may come a time when you will remember what I said and what you heard while hearing something differently than what you heard when I first said what I said, even though I will not have said anything other than what I am saying to you now.

Or in other words, you receive what you are willing to receive now even though there is a lot more to receive than you may be aware of now.

[Serg]

Maybe changing the topic a little, Can you believe that an institue teacher in my Stake, is teaching that: 1) souls or the sons of perdition will be COMPLETELY destroyed(as to remain NOTHING from them) and 2) that the section in D&C about his problems and his kid being dragged from him also reffers to jesus'possible kid?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Serg@Nov 3 2005, 03:13 PM

Maybe changing the topic a little, Can you believe that an institue teacher in my Stake, is teaching that: 1) souls or the sons of perdition will be COMPLETELY destroyed(as to remain NOTHING from them) and 2) that the section in D&C about his problems and his kid being dragged from him also reffers to jesus'possible kid?

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The good 'ole dissipation theory. Sad that it's being taught in institute. *sigh* Especially since D&C 76:43-48 says no man knows what will be the end of the sons of perdition's punishment (if indeed there is one, which I don't think there is):

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

Maybe you should point this quote out to your teacher, and inform them that the only way they can know the details about outer darkness (duration, details) is if they are ordained to that condemnation...in which case a son or daughter of perdition shouldn't be teaching institute!

As for the other "doctrine"...ugh, this teacher needs their head straightened, or to be relieved of their position...we definitely don't need false doctrine being taught in a church-endorsed environment, there's enough anti stuff out there as it is.