Believers And Politics

[USNationalist]

<<The poll was publicized on Christian radio...Dennis Praeger quoted the statistics. Another poll from Faith Under Fire quoted statistics in the same percentage range.>>

-You must have misunderstood my little bit with the life boat ancor. Maybe 90% of americans claim to be christian, but 90% of americans are not christian.

<<Homosexuality is abnormal and a perversion and is detrimental to the family.>>

-it is natural to hump anything that moves. They are natural urges that need to be repressed- the same as any sexual sin. Homosexuality is a sexual sin the same as beastiality of even fornication- it is not its own special category. It is a sexual sin. Everyone has different demons to deal with (sins they are more susceptable to)- for some its gayness, a natural urge found in some people and in some animals exsisting in nature. The hole idea behind resisting that urge is it is natural and a craving of the flesh- we are supposed to resist the flesh- resist the sin that is in our nature.

<<The Fifth Amendment is in regard to not perjuring oneself and due process of law, and pertains not to homosexuality.>>

- I don't think you know what the 5th amendment even says. I guess your only familure with "pleading the 5th". Thats only part of the amendment- the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the other. For instance, a national curfew would be a violation of the 5th amendment. Banning gay marrige is a violation of the 5th amendment.

<<Why would you misconstrue what I have said to mean that I am attacking homosexuals? These are facts, not sentiments.>>

-i am not misconstrueing anything. The fact is you are attacking homosexuals- you simply have youself convinced that you aren't, which is why your sentiments are not that of hate.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 15 2005, 02:51 PM

prison chaplin- I am aware that humanity is evil at heart.

Bravo.  I realize that there are a few people of faith within the Libertarian or "classic liberal" camp.  However, my reading of Romans 13 tells me that God ordained governments, in part, to protect us from ourselves.  That would include so-called "victimless crimes."

However, liberty is not an ideal. People should be free to do what they want- so long as what they do does not encroche on the liberty of others. For example- murder is not an issue of morality but liberty- killing an innocent someone is a violation of liberty.

As a general principle, I agree.  Those who are moral out of spiritual or simple self-discipline are much stronger than those who are good to avoid having to deal with the police.  When in doubt, do not enact a new law!

I think drugs should be leagalised, and i think that the punishment for crimes while under the influence should be tripled. PEople should be free to do what they want with their own bodies- and severe concesquences for letting it affect others will go along way to keep it from being a problem.

Are you trying to put me out of a job!  No, seriously, drugs are one of those areas where Romans 13 applies.  I don't want Big Brother to babysit, but the consequences of this filth are too horrific to leave to the free market of morality.

Morality is something that no one has the right to impose. The only morality that is no relitive is that which is imposed by God- but even then its unchristian to hold non-believers accountable to christian morality.

Every law is an imposition of morality.  You drive 60MPH on most highways because we have empowered government to fight against the immoral practice of dangerous speed-driving.  We pay taxes because people have elected representatives to create social and military programs for our benefit.  Even if you do not agree with a given program, you must pay.  Jesus said to rendor to Caesar what's his (and Caesar ruled an occupation government that had occupied the Israelites!)

Example- voteing to ban gay marrige is both unamerican and unchristian.

It might have been out of line to criminalize gay sex.  However, every society has the right to establish basic moral parameters, including what makes a family.  To invent a right to homosexual marriage out of the U.S. Constitution is something that could only happen in a nutty place like the 9th Circuit!

←

[Guest Ari 2]

Top 10 Largest National Christian Populations

Rank Nation Number Percent

1 USA 224,457,000 85%

Source for these Christian statistics: Ash, Russell. The Top 10 of Everything, DK Publishing, Inc.: New York (1997), pg. 160-161; December Advance Newsletter, 1996, Kainos Press; Adherents.com.

----------------------------

Article V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be put twice in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

----------------------------

Lev. 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

---------------------------

The Family: A Proclamation to the World

We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. "Children are an heritage of the Lord" (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.

[Fiannan]

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children.

Should be repeated over and over in the visiting teaching message. Seems too many Mollies want a husband to pamper them, raise the children, and never ask for anything in return.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Nov 16 2005, 03:31 PM

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children.

Should be repeated over and over in the visiting teaching message. Seems too many Mollies want a husband to pamper them, raise the children, and never ask for anything in return.

←

Are you talking about women when you say Mollies? Cause if you are... I beg to differ... In my house it has been just the opposite... and in fact in the homes of my sisters over the years... it was just opposite... the men were the ones who asked for too much and gave nothing in return...

[Guest Ari 2]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Nov 16 2005, 02:31 PM

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children.

Should be repeated over and over in the visiting teaching message. Seems too many Mollies want a husband to pamper them, raise the children, and never ask for anything in return.

←

___________________________

"Molly Mormon" is a myth. Much of LDS society revolves around member teachings, as opposed to gospel teachings. In the forum I see how some of the male posters feel superior to women, and tend to put them down for expressing their opinions. Many women in the church feel the same way, when husband and father is gone from the home so many long hours. Women must care for the home and children alone, and if she works outside the home, that is an added burden. I feel sorry for both sexes, because so much outside pressure is placed upon the family...the husband and wife should strengthen that unit/union first, before extending itself outside the family.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ari+Nov 16 2005, 03:50 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Fiannan@Nov 16 2005, 02:31 PM

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children.

Should be repeated over and over in the visiting teaching message. Seems too many Mollies want a husband to pamper them, raise the children, and never ask for anything in return.

←

___________________________

"Molly Mormon" is a myth. Much of LDS society revolves around member teachings, as opposed to gospel teachings. In the forum I see how some of the male posters feel superior to women, and tend to put them down for expressing their opinions. Many women in the church feel the same way, when husband and father is gone from the home so many long hours. Women must care for the home and children alone, and if she works outside the home, that is an added burden. I feel sorry for both sexes, because so much outside pressure is placed upon the family...the husband and wife should strengthen that unit/union first, before extending itself outside the family.

←

I agree to a point... but my kids have to know that serving others is essential to developing a good character... the husband needs to know how to help in the home and yes... some mother's need to know how to do more than change diapers...

I find that working in the church helps everyone develope their talents and characters... and that means time spent at church helps families...

But... like you say... taken to the extreme... it is damaging... I say... do not run faster than you have strength (oh... that is not my saying...it is in the scriptures) and I also say... give what you have to give... but if you have nothing to give... you are justified by saying... I would give if I had something to give... IOW I give not because I have not ... (that is a scripture also)

Use wisdom in all things... let the Lord tell your when and when not to serve... pray about callings... and your family...

[USNationalist]

<<However, my reading of Romans 13 tells me that God ordained governments, in part, to protect us from ourselves.>>

-i do not believe in ordination. Goverment exsist to protect its citizens from others, be it other citizens or other nations, not from ourselves.

<<Are you trying to put me out of a job! No, seriously, drugs are one of those areas where Romans 13 applies. I don't want Big Brother to babysit, but the consequences of this filth are too horrific to leave to the free market of morality.>>

-Then make christians out of them, convince them not to do it. Don't tell them they aren't allowed to do things in their own privacy provided they keep it from harming others. And if they do harm others- insanely sevear consequences will keep them from doing it again and deter others. Although to be honest i am unsure on the drug issue, i can see if the long term effects of leaglization would be detrimental to society as a hole then i would keep it illeagle.

<<Every law is an imposition of morality. You drive 60MPH on most highways because we have empowered government to fight against the immoral practice of dangerous speed-driving. We pay taxes because people have elected representatives to create social and military programs for our benefit. Even if you do not agree with a given program, you must pay. Jesus said to rendor to Caesar what's his (and Caesar ruled an occupation government that had occupied the Israelites!)>>

-Thats not true. Morality is an issue of right and wrong, good or bad. It's illeagle to speed on highways because it puts other drivers at risk- a danger to their life and liberty. An issue of protecting life and liberty is not at all the same as that of morality. Infact- laws of morality are violation of liberty- they are really more of a contrast then a simularity. Social morality is an opinion, Liberty is a fact. Opinions held by some should not be law for all. And im not sure what your taxation bit was all about... but i don't disagree with it.

<<It might have been out of line to criminalize gay sex. However, every society has the right to establish basic moral parameters, including what makes a family. To invent a right to homosexual marriage out of the U.S. Constitution is something that could only happen in a nutty place like the 9th Circuit!>>

-they do not have that right. They have the right not to have a law tell them they are not allowed to practice what they believe or practice something they don't believe. "Moral parameters" are for each individual to decide and hold themselves accountable to- provided they do not interfear with the liberty of others. The bill of rights very obviously, in the 5th amendment, supports a homosexuals right to marry (or at the very least get a title that also entitles them to the tax bennifits of wedded couples).