Native America

[Serg]

Hey guys, just wanted to share this interesting passage from the III Section, Chapter II of the Popol Vuh(mayan sacred book)

THESE ARE THE NAMES OF THE FIRST men who were created and formed: the first man was Balam-Quitzé, the second, Balam-Acab, the third, Mahucutah, and the fourth was Iqui-Balam. 1

These are the names of our first mothers and fathers. 2

It is said that they only were made and formed, they had no mother, they had no father. They were only called men. 3 They were not born of woman, nor were they begotten by the Creator nor by the Maker, nor by the Forefathers. 4 Only by a miracle, by means of incantation were they created and made by the Creator, the Maker, the Forefathers, 5 Tepeu and Gucumatz. And as they had the appearance of men, they were men; they talked, conversed, saw and heard, walked, grasped things; they were good and handsome men, and their figure was the figure of a man.

They were endowed with intelligence; they saw and instantly they could see far, they succeeded in seeing, they succeeded in knowing all that there is in the world. When they looked, instantly they saw all around them, and they contemplated in turn the arch of heaven and the round face of the earth.

The things hidden [in the distance] they saw all, without first having to move; at once they saw the world, and so, too, from where they were, they saw it.

Great was their wisdom; their sight reached to the forests,

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the rocks, the lakes, the seas, the mountains, and the valleys. In truth, they were admirable men. Balam-Quitzé, Balam-Acab, Mahucutah, and Iqui-Balam.

Then the Creator and the Maker asked them: "What do you think of your condition? Do you not see? Do you not hear? Are not your speech and manner of walking good? Look, then! Contemplate the world, look [and see] if the mountains and the valleys appear! Try, then, to see!" they said to [the four first men].

And immediately they [the four first men] began to see all that was in the world. Then they gave thanks to the Creator and the Maker: "We really give you thanks, two and three times! 6 We have been created, we have been given a mouth and a face, we speak, we hear, we think, and walk; we feel perfectly, and we know what is far and what is near. We also see the large and the small in the sky and on earth. We give you thanks, then, for having created us, oh, Creator and Maker! for having given us being, oh, our

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grandmother! oh, our grandfather!" they said, giving thanks for their creation and formation.

They were able to know all, and they examined the four comers, the four points of the arch of the sky and the round face of the earth.

But the Creator and the Maker did not hear this with pleasure. "It is not well what our creatures, our works say; they know all, the large and the small," they said. And so the Forefathers held counsel again. "What shall we do with them now? Let their sight reach only to that which is near; let them see only a little of the face of the earth! It is not well what they say. Perchance, are they not by nature simple creatures of our making? Must they also be gods? And if they do not reproduce and multiply when it will dawn, when the sun rises? And what if they do not multiply?" 7 So they spoke.

"Let us check a little their desires, because it is not well what we see. Must they perchance be the equals of ourselves,

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their Makers, who can, see afar, who know all and see all?"

Thus spoke the Heart of Heaven, Huracán, Chipi-Caculhá, Raxa-Caculhá, Tepeu, Gucumatz, the Forefathers, Xpiyacoc, Xmucané, the Creator and the Maker. Thus they spoke, and immediately they changed the nature of their works, of their creatures.

Then the Heart of Heaven blew mist into their eyes, which clouded their sight as. when a mirror is breathed upon. Their eyes were covered and they could see only what was close, only that was clear to them.

In this way the wisdom and all the knowledge of the four men, the origin and beginning 8 [of the Quiché race], were destroyed.

I find it very interesting, also the attitudes of the Gods towards the progress of men...which resembles the situation within the lds theology when the Gods instead of not being proud of us being like them, were in fact pleased with such wishful reality...

Regards,

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Hi Serg,

I'm going to need more time to read and comprehend this (not easy with 3 year-old twins jumping all over you and screaming in your ears), but these are my initial feelings.

I do have some Native American blood, although very diluted at this point, from my dad, and have always been fascinated with the Native American's, their beleifs and their culture. One of my favorite Disney movies is the "The Bear" because it portrays in such a beautiful the some of the beliefs they have.

Then the Heart of Heaven blew mist into their eyes, which clouded their sight as. when a mirror is breathed upon. Their eyes were covered and they could see only what was close, only that was clear to them.

In this way the wisdom and all the knowledge of the four men, the origin and beginning 8 [of the Quiché race], were destroyed.

This sounds a bit like the "veil" that covers our "eyes" when we enter this life.

I have always been fascinated and inspired by the way the NA's have valued the world around them. In history classes I was always so frustrated at the way the white man came in and took over everything, claiming they were smarter and better then everyone else. (BTW, I am white (with the exeption of 1/32 or 1/64 native american) and I am married to a full blooded white man, who I adore and think he's very intelligent ) But it bothered me that no consideration was taken towards their way of life, their beliefs, that they were not valued as people.

I wish that today we valued what we had more, and quit being such a throw-away society (I'm guilty). I love that NA's value every element in our world and beleive it is sacred.

(Maybe I'm going off on my own tangent, sorry about that.) If we look back in BofM, the Lamanites (and Nephites) had started to believe and do strange things that were contrary to what was true. I think that some of the truth still exsisted, althought fractured and diluted, and that that little bit of truth was shared through generations with their stories. So that is why we can look back and find similarities, because some of the truth is still there.

Sorry, my thoughts aren't laid out very well...at least you can read it, even if you can't understand it! After I have a chance to really think about your post Serg, I'll post again. Thank you for making me think...

[livy111us]

Here are some cool qoutes that I have read from different books:

We have the account of Laman and Lemuel murmuring before the departure from the land Bountiful, but finally succumbing, and following their younger brother Nephi’s counsel. In a Quiche Maya document called the Anales de los Xahil, it speaks of the natives before arriving in America, that they anxiously looked toward the sea and exclaimed “It cannot be crossed. It has never been told that the sea has been crossed’ said all the warriors of the seven tribes. ‘Who will tell us how we may cross the sea? Oh our younger brother, thou are our hope.’ they all exclaimed... ‘How shall we cross the sea, oh our younger brother?’ they said. And we answered: ‘ We shall cross in the ships...’ then we entered the ships of the Ah

Nonovalco; then we traveled eastward and arrived there.” (Anales de los Xahil, Traduccion y notes de George Raymond, Miguel Angel Asturias y J.M. Gonzales de Mendoza, National University, Mexico [1946])

SATANS REBELLION

“It is proper here to explain the position of spirits in the Indian systems. All the first people are conceived as having bodies as well as spirits. When we speak of a spirit appearing to a sorcerer or ‘doctor’, it is understood that the spirit has left its body temporarily and will return to it. There are not spirits without bodies save an exceptional few who at the time of the metamorphosis of the first people lost the bodies which had belonged to them in their primal condition and received no new bodies at their fall. This loss of bodies was inflicted as a punishment. These desolate disembodied spirits wander about now in mountains and lonely

weird places. Uncanny in character they are seen rarely and then only by sorcerers.” (Creation Myths of Primitive America, pg. 37, Jeremiah Curtin)

NOAHS FLOOD

The idea of a flood in olden times.....still existed among the Indians of Guatemala in the years following the Spanish conquest.” Apologetica Historia chap.ccxxxv, pg. 620

Bishop Las Casas says in this work (Popul Vuh) that “they had, among them, information of the flood and of the end of the world, and called it ‘butic’ , which is the word which means flood of many waters and means [the final] judgment, and so they believe that another ‘butic’ is about to come, which is another flood and judgment, not of water, but of fire, which they say would be the end of the world, in which all the creatures would have no quarrel...” (Popul Vuh

pg. 92)

Bishop Las Casas said “they believed that certain persons who escaped the flood populated their lands, and that they were called the great father and the great mother.”

“A flood was brought about by the heart of heaven; a great flood was formed which fell upon the heads of the wooden creatures.” (Popul Vuh pg. 90)

“History began with the creation of the supreme God Tloque Nahuaque. This first era lasted 1716 years, until floods swept over the earth.” (Relaciones, by Ixtlilxochitl)

TOWER OF BABEL

“In middle America the echoing pre conquest legend runs thus: after the deluge which destroyed the primeval world, seven giants survived. One of them, Xelhua, then built the great pyramid of Cholula in order to reach heaven. But the gods destroyed the pyramid with fire and confounded the language of the builders.” Compare to Gen. 11:1-9, (Fair Gods and Stone Faces, Constance Irwin pg.59)

“The Navajos believe that all the nations, Navajos, Pueblos, Coyoteros and white people lived together at one time; all speaking the same tongue.” (Indian Legends, Lesueur)

The Aztecs believed that their ancestors “decided to build a tower so high that it’s summits would reach unto heaven”. The account continues true to Biblical form, asserting that “the giants, bewildered and filled with terror, fled in all directions.” (The Aztecs: The History of the Indies of New Spain, pg. 5)

[Lindy]

Great Thread!

Thanks for starting it Serg :)

[Lindy]

“The Navajos believe that all the nations, Navajos, Pueblos, Coyoteros and white people lived together at one time; all speaking the same tongue.” (Indian Legends, Lesueur)

The Aztecs believed that their ancestors “decided to build a tower so high that it’s summits would reach unto heaven”. The account continues true to Biblical form, asserting that “the giants, bewildered and filled with terror, fled in all directions.” (The Aztecs: The History of the Indies of New Spain, pg. 5)

You know it's the little things you find out about the thoughts they had and the things they did...that just tie the lose ends a little bit more tighter in our beliefs. It's amazing to me that some people can't open thier minds to the possibility that the"other sheep" actually existed.

[livy111us]

here are some cool websites on the subject

http://www.stonecliffpublishing.com/

http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/main.html

www.ancientamerica.org

www.nephiproject.com

www.bmaf.org

[Serg]

Thanks for sharing, i've been working for a long time on a very well documented thesis on this matter...

Best regards,

[livy111us]

would you care to share your findings? I am very interested in that.

[Serg]

When i finish it, i assure you i'll let you know my findings....

Regards,