What's The Point Of Sealing.

[Uncomman]

Is there anything in writing about these requirements, like are they numbered from 1-10?

[BenRaines]

If you are wondering about who will enter the Celestial Kingdom the following is written in the Doctrine & Covenants Section 76

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 22 2005, 12:59 PM

First, everyone who ever has been or will be born on this planet is a child of God, so the idea that life would be “dull” if we can only visit with our wife and children sounds pretty silly to me, unless someone thinks it would be dull to visit with billions and billions of people, which I do not, so YaY for me.  I mean, really, just look and marvel at what people are able to accomplish today!

I think you mis-understood what I was saying on this. If being a sealed family means you're only with those to whom you are sealed, then things would get boring after a while.

And since you can visit with billions of people being either sealed or not sealed, I see no advantage here.

Secondly, the idea that life as a single person is as full and joyous as life with family seems to be coming from someone who doesn’t fully appreciate the benefits of being married, or of being a child of the parents who gave birth to him. 

I believe that joy comes from within, not without. Therefore, you are happy and content when around your loved-ones, and when you are not. If things truly are "as above, so below" then human nature dictates that we would be just fine if all we had were each other.

And since, as Mormon doctrine teaches, we are all brothers and sisters anyway, I again fail to see any point to sealing. In other words, since God is my father, was I not "born under the covenant"? Am I not eternally his child anyway? What purpose could be had to be around a handful of family members I had "sealed" to me, when I would be missing out on eternal relationships with my fellow brothers and sisters, relationships that may predate my marriage and children by billions or trillions of years?

Or in other words, Jason, I am now telling you that the only way you will ever be able to be married or bound to any woman in heaven is to be sealed to her in a temple and abide by the laws upon which that benefit is contingent, and if you aren’t willing to do that now, what makes you think you will be able to do that later?

I didn't say it would, and I don't expect it. And to add further my personal opinion, I have no desire to be sealed to either my wife or my children. I don't think it's a sign of love to do so. It sounds selfish to me, and thus far nobody's been able to prove it's any better than just hanging out with them.

In other words, Ray, I guess I'll just have to settle with chatting, because I won't be sealed to my family. I'll just have to enjoy my wife's company, instead of hittin' the sack with her. And frankly, if God's as wonderful as you preach, will anyone want to leave his presence for a few moments of sexual pleasure?

And btw, if our Lord sends you to outer darkness because you utterly refused to accept the gospel while knowing full well what the gospel is all about, or if he sends you to another planet all by yourself with no other companion, you will have nobody to blame but yourself because you utterly refused to accept the blessings that can come alone through Him.

Well, if that's a spiritual threat for not getting sealed, I've never seen one before. Yet this comment is not based on any LDS doctrines in your Standard Works, nor have I heard such a thing before. So it's just an empty threat, and certainly will not work on the likes of me.

Certainly, if you cannot come up with a real reason besides sex to get sealed (which may suffice for some) I fail to see why anyone would desire it.

This doesn't even begin to touch on whether we still have free will in the CK or not. Who's to say that we won't start sleeping around with all the hot single sister-angles up there? What's God gonna do about that?

[Jason]

Ben,

To each his own. B)

[BenRaines]

Jason, I enjoy the discussion at the level we have been keeping it. One of the Articles of Faith that we believe is the following:

Eleventh Article of Faith

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

It would be nice if others were more forgiving for the knowledge or interests of others.

If someone wants to know about LDS beliefs I don't mind sharing but you too are entitled to your opinion and interpretation.

[Ray]

Jason,

I think you’re making a lot of assumptions.

First of all, you seem to be assuming that you will end up somewhere with other people.

Why are you making that assumption? Wouldn’t it be just as logical to conclude that you might end up on your very own planet after the day of judgment?

Second, even if you were put on a planet with other people, what makes you think you would be put on a planet with women?

Or if that planet did have some women living on it, that the woman who once married you would be on that planet?

Or if the woman who once married you was on that planet, that you would be able to find her?

A planet can be a big place, so even if she was on the same planet with you, you still might not find her, or by the time you found her she could have settled down with someone else. And that’s assuming that she would even remember you, and that you would remember her.

Bottom line: Without God’s blessings, and the blessings you can receive from other people, you’re on your own. And even though God is gracious enough to give you something you have not earned, there is no good reason to assume that God would give you something or someone which you apparently don’t seem to want anyway.

From what you said, you seem to think you can be happy without other people, just as well as you can with them, because you think happiness is all about what you have within yourself. Did I get that right?

Anyway, if you do want a woman to enjoy your life with in heaven, marry a woman by receiving the sealing ordinances with her in the temple, and then do everything else that is necessary to be able to live with her again after the day of judgment, because that is the way God has authorized for those who want to receive that blessing.

And btw, you might also want to seal yourself to your children, and yourself to your parents, so you can also have the blessing of their company when you want it too.

[Jason]

Ray,

You're just going around in circles now. I've already stated that the reasons you've given for sealing seem illogical according to your own doctrines.

Further, Im not trying to make an assumption. Im making an argument as though I were LDS. That's all Im doing. I don't believe in a single bit of this as though it were even possibly true. I think it's all hogwash.

That said, Im engaging in this discussion for discussion sake. And perhaps it will give some other board members something to think about.

[Ray]

Jason,

You made several assumptions in the post I was responding to. Do you really need me to itemize them for you before you can see them?

And btw, I now know that you still don't undertand the need for being sealed to your loved ones, even after several of us have gone into depth to explain it to you, so either there will still come a time when you will be able to understand this doctrine, or you will not ever be allowed to enjoy the benefits of this doctrine because you would not receive it. But either way, until you accept it, you will never be able to enjoy those blessings in heaven.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 22 2005, 04:05 PM

Jason,

You made several assumptions in the post I was responding to.  Do you really need me to itemize them for you before you can see them?

And btw, I now know that you still don't undertand the need for being sealed to your loved ones, even after several of us have gone into depth to explain it to you, so either there will still come a time when you will be able to understand this doctrine, or you will not ever be allowed to enjoy the benefits of this doctrine because you would not receive it.  But either way, until you accept it, you will never be able to enjoy those blessings in heaven.

←

There you go again, Ray. What blessings?

[Ray]

All of the benefits that come from the people you love and the people who love you, which you seem to assume you will somehow be able to receive regardless of anything God has to say or do about it.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 22 2005, 04:12 PM

All of the benefits that come from the people you love and the people who love you, which you seem to assume you will somehow be able to receive regardless of anything God has to say or do about it.

←

Now, let's not get upset here Ray. All Im getting from you are obscure blessings. Im asking for specifics. Im not getting specifics...just more of the same obscure promises.

I don't know that it's your fault really. Your god has not said much in the D&C about all of this. He seems to have forgotten to be specific about how great it could be. Maybe he didn't realize that people like me would want to know, so he forgot to say anything?

Anyway, I appreciate you're efforts here. Perhaps someone else will come along with more information.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 22 2005, 04:49 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 22 2005, 04:12 PM

All of the benefits that come from the people you love and the people who love you, which you seem to assume you will somehow be able to receive regardless of anything God has to say or do about it.

←

Now, let's not get upset here Ray. All Im getting from you are obscure blessings. Im asking for specifics. Im not getting specifics...just more of the same obscure promises.

I don't know that it's your fault really. Your god has not said much in the D&C about all of this. He seems to have forgotten to be specific about how great it could be. Maybe he didn't realize that people like me would want to know, so he forgot to say anything?

Anyway, I appreciate you're efforts here. Perhaps someone else will come along with more information.

←

Jason, do you really need affirmation that you are justified enough to leave the church this bad? You should know as well as anyone what these blessings are. There is a couple of scriptures that I think is applicable here and could be a very good reason why you are unable to understand and appreciate the blessings to be had in church.

Alma 12:11

And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction.

Alma 24:30

30 And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.

[BenRaines]

Jason, perhaps I haven't read the posts enough. Are you or were you once a member of LDS church? That would make sense since you know so much about our faith. I just never understood that.

[Jason]

Originally posted by seamusz@Nov 22 2005, 06:08 PM

Jason, do you really need affirmation that you are justified enough to leave the church this bad? 

It's not for me, seamusz. It's for you and other Board members to think about. Im beginning to believe that few LDS have ever put this much thought into the whole "glory of a temple marriage" thing.

You should know as well as anyone what these blessings are.  There is a couple of scriptures that I think is applicable here and could be a very good reason why you are unable to understand and appreciate the blessings to be had in church. 

You know, I hate to say it, but this post of yours smells an awful lot like spam.

Rather than attack me as one who is incapable of comprehending the "mysteries of mormonism" why not just try and actually answer the questions Im posing? Ever thought of trying that?

[Jason]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 22 2005, 06:17 PM

Jason, perhaps I haven't read the posts enough.  Are you or were you once a member of LDS church?  That would make sense since you know so much about our faith. I just never understood that.

←

Yes. Im a former member.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 22 2005, 06:18 PM

It's not for me, seamusz.  It's for you and other Board members to think about.  Im beginning to believe that few LDS have ever put this much thought into the whole "glory of a temple marriage" thing. 

Well, Jason, I am happy in my faith, in my Savior, and the knowledge given me that this is His true Church on the Earth. Personally I have lots of insight on this topic, but I would not share it with you. I do not believe that you would take seriously or take any effort in trying to understand how these insights are valuable to me. Why is it you find a need to debate the gospel with us? There are only two reasons I can think of. 1. Try to lead others away. 2. Make yourself feel better about abandoning your faith. I ask you again why it is that you find a need to debate the gospel with us?

Originally posted by Jason

You know, I hate to say it, but this post of yours smells an awful lot like spam. 

Rather than attack me as one who is incapable of comprehending the "mysteries of mormonism" why not just try and actually answer the questions Im posing?  Ever thought of trying that?

←

I did not attack you Jason, I posted the Word Of God. If you felt attacked by it, that is your own concience. In a way, it is a good thing, that would show that the light of Christ that is given to all men, and that it is still in you.

[Jason]

Seameuz,

If you weren't planning on contributing to the discussion, they why did you post? Was it to make yourself feel spiritually superior to me? Was it to belittle me in front of the Board?

I hope that you'll cease your degrading comments, and either contribute something intelligent, or post somewhere else.

Thanks.

[seamusz]

I hope that you do feel embarrassed about the way that you carry yourself in front of everyone. You belittle our faith and our beliefs. The power of the sealings in the Temple are one of the most important blessings to me. You have stated over and over that you think that they are worthless. Maybe you can appreciate how it can make us feel to have the closest things to us mocked.

[Jason]

Originally posted by seamusz@Nov 22 2005, 07:17 PM

I hope that you do feel embarrassed about the way that you carry yourself in front of everyone.  You belittle our faith and our beliefs. The power of the sealings in the Temple are one of the most important blessings to me.  You have stated over and over that you think that they are worthless.  Maybe you can appreciate how it can make us feel to have the closest things to us mocked.

←

Please point out for me which post in this thread has me mocking this subject?

[BenRaines]

OK people lets get back on topic and stop the personal attacks or the posts will be deleted and limitations will be put in place. This is a place for open opinions but not personal attacks by member or non members alike. All will be treated fairly and evenly. No preference.

[Ray]

I think Jason and Ben have a good point. We should not start talking about how “bad” or “lost” or “misguided” we think somebody is for not being able to see or accept what we know to be true. I think that if we want to help someone see the truth, we must try to explain it to them as simply as we can, while asking God to guide us with our thoughts and our words, and also while Asking God to open the eyes of the person we’re speaking with so that they may also see the truth.

And btw, simply Asking God to open the eyes of someone so that they may see the truth may not necessarily result in God actually opening their eyes so that they may see the truth, since God in His infinite wisdom may know that would not be a good thing to do at that particular time and place, perhaps for reasons known only to Him.

Anyway, I probably should have given Jason a simpler answer at the beginning of this thread.

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 18 2005, 02:14 PM

I’m talking about the Celestial Kingdom.  I’m also talking about people who fulfilled all the rules of Mormonism and are now exalted beings in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. 

Now with that understanding, and knowing that one Celestialite will be able to see and visit with other Celestialites, what exactly is the need of being sealed to anyone besides your spouse(s)? (Which I assume is only necessary in and of itself for the purposes of intimate sexual encounters to create "spirit" babies.  No fornication in heaven mind you...)

First, I will note that you originally conceded the fact that there may be good reasons to be “sealed” to a spouse, and that you were mainly asking about what need there may be for being “sealed” to children, and for children being “sealed” to parents, since those are the only other ways in which people can be “sealed” to each other.

And now, after all I have already said before, I will simply say that there is no need for someone to be sealed to their children, and there is also no need for someone to be sealed to their parents, if they do not consider themselves to be among those who feel a need to bond with their children and parents.

Or in other words, if you can be happy living in a world where you can have no “family”, perhaps having only friends and acquaintances, or even perhaps only having yourself for company, then you will simply be among those people who do not feel a need to be bonded to children and parents.

And btw, I am not saying that is necessarily a “bad” thing, because even our Lord has told us there will be some people living in the Celestial kingdom who will be living as single and separate beings, so I can only suppose that those people will not feel a “need” to bond with “family”, even though they will be living among other people who will feel that “need” and will have that “blessing”.

And btw, if you choose to be “sealed” to a spouse, you will also be “sealed” to any children you may have, and your children will also be “sealed” to you, because that is another part of what is involved in being “sealed” to a spouse.

And btw, even if you do not receive the “sealing” ordinance to bind yourself to your parents, some of your parents may choose (and may have already chosen) to be “sealed” to you, so you may still receive visits from them when they want to see you, if you are living in a kingdom they can visit you when they want to.

And btw, I am among those people who do feel a need to bond with my parents, and also to bond with my children, including all of my grandparents and great grandparents and great, great grandparents, etc, as well as my grandchildren, and great grandchildren, and great, great grandchildren, etc, ad infinitum.

And btw, I have what I think are good reasons for saying “And btw”. :)

[Jason]

Ray,

Let's say that Bill and Jane have a boy named Jimmy. Now, Jimmy was a good lad and he ended up in the CK. Now, Jimmy is their son, regardless of any sealing ceremony. So what specific advantage is there to say:"Jimmy is our son, but he's not sealed to us." versus "Jimmy is our son, and he's sealed to us."??

Will your relationship be any different with your kids in the CK, whether there's been a sealing or not?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 23 2005, 01:08 PM

Let's say that Bill and Jane have a boy named Jimmy.  Now, Jimmy was a good lad and he ended up in the CK.  Now, Jimmy is their son, regardless of any sealing ceremony.  So what specific advantage is there to say:"Jimmy is our son, but he's not sealed to us." versus "Jimmy is our son, and he's sealed to us."??

Jason,

If you do not seal yourself to the people you may have as your children on this Earth, those people will not be your children in heaven, but merely some other brothers and sisters.

Or in other words, parents and children relate to each other in a way that no other people can, and they can continue that relationship in heaven by doing all that is expected of them. Otherwise, they will simply be among other people they know, or have known, with no other relationship between them.

Or in other words, if you don’t think you would feel any different in heaven hearing one of your sons say:

“This is Jason, my Father”

and

“This is Jason, another one of my brothers, who still visits with me from time to time, and for some reason thinks I should continue to pay particular attention to him, even though we no longer have a “father-son” relationship”

then I don’t think you’re connecting with the idea I’m trying to share with you to show you that a "father-son" relationship is about more than being “brothers".

And btw, it might help you to understand my point if you’ll substitute your name for those fictional names in your story.

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 23 2005, 01:08 PM

Will your relationship be any different with your kids in the CK, whether there's been a sealing or not?

Yes. My relationship to the people I now have as my sons will only be a “brother-brother” relationship without being “sealed” to them as their parents, and that would be different than the relationship that I have with them now.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 23 2005, 03:11 PM

Or in other words, parents and children relate to each other in a way that no other people can, and they can continue that relationship in heaven by doing all that is expected of them. Otherwise, they will simply be among other people they know, or have known, with no other relationship between them.

I think you're downplaying this a bit. I'll explain:

Or in other words, if you don’t think you would feel any different in heaven hearing one of your sons say:

“This is Jason, my Father”

and

“This is Jason, another one of my brothers, who still visits with me from time to time, and for some reason thinks I should continue to pay particular attention to him, even though we no longer have a “father-son” relationship”

then I don’t think you’re connecting with the idea I’m trying to share with you to show you that a "father-son" relationship is about more than being “brothers". 

Well, since technically we were all brothers before we were fathers & sons, I fail to see the point here. And I also fail to see how a lack of sealing would cause a person to disrespect one's earthly parents. I cannot imagine, with all the speculating in the world, that "Jimmy" would say to "Bill", "This guy is nothing to me but a brother".

Instead, I must presume that Jimmy would say: "hey, this was my Father on earth!" In other words, I don't see the special relationship disappearing just because you're dead. And I still fail to see how a sealing would make your earth relationships any less meaningful or important when youre dead and residing in the CK.

And btw, it might help you to understand my point if you’ll substitute your name for those fictional names in your story.

I'd rather not. This is not about me, and I don't want to personalize it.

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 23 2005, 01:08 PM

Will your relationship be any different with your kids in the CK, whether there's been a sealing or not?

Yes. My relationship to the people I now have as my sons will only be a “brother-brother” relationship without being “sealed” to them as their parents, and that would be different than the relationship that I have with them now.

←

How? Please elaborate on this.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 23 2005, 03:17 PM

Well, since technically we were all brothers before we were fathers & sons, I fail to see the point here. And I also fail to see how a lack of sealing would cause a person to disrespect one's earthly parents. I cannot imagine, with all the speculating in the world, that "Jimmy" would say to "Bill", "This guy is nothing to me but a brother".

But that would be true. If Jimmy and Bill do not honor their relationship as father and son before God, through their own free will, then they would be nothing but brothers to each other.

Or in other words, a “father” is more than a man who once gave some of his sperm to a woman to “procreate” a person. God has given all “fathers” a clearly defined role in the “family”, and if a man does not honor that role, then he is not a true father.

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 23 2005, 03:17 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 23 2005, 03:11 PM

Will your relationship be any different with your kids in the CK, whether there's been a sealing or not?

Yes. My relationship to the people I now have as my sons will only be a “brother-brother” relationship without being “sealed” to them as their parents, and that would be different than the relationship that I have with them now.

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that God has instituted the organization we know as the “family” to provide structure and organization in society, with clearly defined roles for parents and children.

For instance, the role of father-to-child is not the same as the role of child-to-father, and the role of father-to-child is also not the same as the role of husband-to-wife. Or in other words, each family has a role in society, and each member of a family has a role in that family which is different than their role in another family.

Anyway, I think it would be better for you to continue to think and ponder about this while searching the scriptures, instead of having me try to explain all of this.

After all, you shouldn’t be dependent upon me to learn all of this stuff anyway.