Excellent Talk On Socialism And The United Order

[dontagreeljefe]

Fortuntly the cold war is pretty much over. Wish some of asia would get rid of communist governments. Unfortuntly socialism isnt but growing and some americans think it is a good idea. In 1966 Marion G Romney gave a talk on it in conference talked about the diffrences. United order were going to give socialism were going to take.

Socialism is by force. That was a major thing in the war in heaven. http://members.tripod.com/~runwin/socialism.html IN a perfect society it would be great to live united order. This site also has some excellentt talks on the evils of communism and socialism as well. Marx and Engels received there inspiration from beneath.

[Guest LDSister]

I so agree with you, dontagreeljefe! I posted a terrific article by Pres. Benson, "Not Commanded In All Things", distinguishing between communism/socialism/the welfare state, and the United Order. There was a news story on just last night about how Chinese Christians are not allowed to practice their faith. In the statistics I recently posted, there are 70,000,000 Christians in China...that's 5.7% compared to other countries. A good movie I would recommend seeing is "China Cry."

[pushka]

As I and other posters have said before, it is not the Communism, or Socialism that is at fault, it is the corrupt Governments that pretend to use socialism in order to oppress their people. Such as Stalin and the Chinese Government.

[dontagreeljefe]

Originally posted by pushka@Nov 21 2005, 06:13 PM

As I and other posters have said before, it is not the Communism, or Socialism that is at fault, it is the corrupt Governments that pretend to use socialism in order to oppress their people.  Such as Stalin and the Chinese Government.

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it is communism and socialism that is corrupt. Satan inspired both of them. What communist government doesnt oppress there people. What socialist government which is similar dont use coveting and theft. Here is a list of what church leaders said about it. I would believe what they say on the matter both evil governments. And recommend John Stossels web page give me a break talks about dangers of community sharing.

http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/message.html?id=1461083

[pushka]

Where in the Bible does it teach that Satan inspired Communism/Socialism, please?

I agree that the governments which I mentioned are corrupt, that does not mean that the system they originally adhered to is corrupt...it's the wrong people using that system in the wrong way!!

[dontagreeljefe]

Originally posted by pushka@Nov 27 2005, 04:56 PM

Where in the Bible does it teach that Satan inspired Communism/Socialism, please?

I agree that the governments which I mentioned are corrupt, that does not mean that the system they originally adhered to is corrupt...it's the wrong people using that system in the wrong way!!

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Communism socialism didnt exist in biblical times evil governments did though. That is why modern revelation is necessary. If you need your car fixed would you go to a mechanic who hasnt studied anything in decades about mechanics or kept up on new cars just did same old stuff or someone that kept up to date with changes. Would you go to retiring dentist who hasnt touched a book about dental procedures or kept up to date since he graduated from dental school or someone that keeps up to date.

Why base something on a book several millenia old but ignore what is happening in modern times. That is why revelation is necessarty to know the mind and will of the lord right now.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by dontagreeljefe@Dec 1 2005, 03:28 PM

Communism socialism didnt exist in biblical times evil governments did though.  That is why modern revelation is necessary. 

First of all, modern revelation has told us very little about Government...the only thing I remember reading is in the D&C where it says that the Constitution was inspired by God.

Well, yes it was. But not the Judeo-Christian God.

This country was founded by Deists, who believed that a Creator created the world, and then ceased interfering with it...meaning no miracles or prophets. However, the Constitution was inspired by God in the sense that it was based on Providence (which I think means the "will" of God)...which really just means that the Constitution is in harmony with God's laws (nature). So it is the best system of government that humans have at this time, because it is the closest system to the way the world works (which works according to God's design).

Joseph Smith seems to have agreed that the Constitution was inspired...but obviously mistook the word "God" as it appeared in the document to mean his own Judeo-Christian God, rather than the more generic "Creator" that was the intended meaning.

As for socialism/communism...

According to the Bible, it was not created by Satan.

In fact, it was practiced by Jesus...

Acts 2:

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

I am not criticizing Jesus...I don't have any problems with Socialism or Capitalism...I think that both should be used in combination in a way that may best benefit people...it probably should be used differently in different nations according to their needs...just my opinion.

[dontagreeljefe]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Dec 1 2005, 04:59 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-dontagreeljefe@Dec 1 2005, 03:28 PM

Communism socialism didnt exist in biblical times evil governments did though.  That is why modern revelation is necessary. 

First of all, modern revelation has told us very little about Government...the only thing I remember reading is in the D&C where it says that the Constitution was inspired by God.

Well, yes it was. But not the Judeo-Christian God.

This country was founded by Deists, who believed that a Creator created the world, and then ceased interfering with it...meaning no miracles or prophets. However, the Constitution was inspired by God in the sense that it was based on Providence (which I think means the "will" of God)...which really just means that the Constitution is in harmony with God's laws (nature). So it is the best system of government that humans have at this time, because it is the closest system to the way the world works (which works according to God's design).

Joseph Smith seems to have agreed that the Constitution was inspired...but obviously mistook the word "God" as it appeared in the document to mean his own Judeo-Christian God, rather than the more generic "Creator" that was the intended meaning.

As for socialism/communism...

According to the Bible, it was not created by Satan.

In fact, it was practiced by Jesus...

Acts 2:

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

I am not criticizing Jesus...I don't have any problems with Socialism or Capitalism...I think that both should be used in combination in a way that may best benefit people...it probably should be used differently in different nations according to their needs...just my opinion.

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socialism and communism are satans counterfeit to the united order.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

socialism and communism are satans counterfeit to the united order.

Why would Satan want to counterfeit something revealed to LDS prophets in countries that had little or no LDS population? Do you think the Russians were saying "Hey this Communism thing that Lenin is talking about sounds an awful lot like what that Prophet over in America talked about 50 years ago...maybe this is a sign from God that we should go along with it!", while Satan laughed wickedly in the background?

By the way...here is one description of a United Order...

The second category of united orders was communal. Members contributed all their property to the order, shared more or less equally in the common product, and functioned, ate, and worked as a well-regulated family. This system is called the Orderville type, after the most famous of the united orders. Established in southern Utah in 1875, the Orderville United Order attained almost complete self-sufficiency. It produced its own food, fuel, fiber, and nearly all needed manufactured items, some of which it exported to other parts of the territory. The most successful of the communal-type orders, it disbanded in 1885. In addition to Orderville, communal united orders were established in several LDS communities in southern Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and Mexico.

Sounds alot like what Jesus was practicing.

Also sounds alot like Communism/Socialism.

This was not like the totalitarian government of the Soviet Union (for example) but the economic system described by Marx.

As mentioned above, the systems are not inherently evil (created by Satan)...they are corrupted by bad government.

If I believed in Satan, I might say that the governments that corrupted the system of socialism was inspired by Satan...IF I believed in Satan...

But the system itself seemed to work well for Jesus and for 19th Century LDS...granted those were small populations.

I am not an economist so I cannot say if there is some way to implement socialism on a wider scale to make is successful.

I do believe (as a Canadian), that a mix of Socialism and Capitalism can work if done right...not that Canada has a better system than the United States...but it is...in my opinion...not any worse. To see if it benefits you, it just depends who you are in such a society. Neither Canada nor the United States has figured out the best economic system...but given time, maybe they will both learn from their mistakes and find a better way...and that way MIGHT involve some aspects of socialism.

[dontagreeljefe]

In acts the people willingly gave of there substance the united order people give willingly. Socialism is confiscation by force. SAtan is force and Christ will never use force.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by dontagreeljefe@Dec 1 2005, 06:39 PM

In acts the people willingly gave of there substance the united order people give willingly.  Socialism is confiscation by force.  SAtan is force and Christ will never use force.

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Sorry, I misunderstood you.

When you said:

Unfortuntly socialism isnt but growing and some americans think it is a good idea.

...I assumed you were talking about voluntary socialism. Because if growing numbers of Americans think it is a good idea, it is voluntary.

This is the kind of socialism we see in Canada and many European countries, which are mostly capitalist but have socialist elements. This cannot be wrong if it is voluntary, right?

I agree that imposing communism on people against their will is wrong. From a Christian point of view, it would indeed be the work of Satan. But it is wrong to impose ANY form of government or economic system on people against their will. Even capitalism, if forced on people against their will would be "the work of Satan".

I think that you are talking more about Totalitarianism than Communism. Totalitarianism is indeed wrong...for example, the Nazis were Totalitarians, but opposed to Communism.

[pushka]

Thank you for your supportive posts, and scriptural references Tao!!!