Good God, Bad God?

[Red]

I thought this subject has been begging for its own topic thread, at least in my mind.

My motives are still the same: I am not here to slander, but to say that all of you as Mormons are in serious danger, AND that there is a real way out. There is a God, the only true God who loves you and wants to bring you to Him. He offers Salvation and His friendship as a free gift. You can do nothing to earn it because it is priceless, and you can do nothing to loose it because it is given by the God who cannot be thwarted.

So here is the argument:

1. The Mormon God and the Mormon Jesus represented in the LDS canon are both bad. And so they are false. They are not the same God and Jesus of the Bible.

2. The God and Jesus of the Bible are both good. And so they are both true. They are not the same God and Jesus of the Book of Mormon, D/C or Pearl of Great Price.

An example I argue from is this: Abraham 2:22-24, PGP.

"22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, The Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say--She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:

24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live."

This is a case in LDS scripture of God instructing Abraham to lie by omission. Also, this advice on LDS/God's part would put Sarai in the position of potentially committing adultry in order to keep up the ruse. The LDS/God (or LDS/Jesus if "Lord" is to refer to him) which is described here is not true, but a false god.

Another example is also found in PGP: Joseph Smith--History 1:19.

"I was answered that I must join none of them [any Christian denomination], for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight..."

The First Vision then becomes the basis for starting an entirely new church, to separate from all the others in order to re-establish the true way. However, this is not consistent with the character of the God of the Bible, in that when B/God calls a prophet He sends the man to the lost. The prophets of the OT were never called to separate themselves from the nation of Israel and form a new sect, no matter how far the nation strayed. So if LDS/God (or LDS/Jesus) were the true God He would have called Joseph Smith to win the churches back to the truth, not to separate himself from them.

Also, the claims above, "all were wrong...their creeds were an abomination..." do nothing to solve the problems described between the various denominations, namely: division, and endless argument resulting from various interpretations of scripture. A man of God being lead to call for unity may have helped, but instead this pattern of "separation for restoration" is more consistent with false religions as Islam and most cults. The Personages could not have been the Father and Son of the Bible.

If the LDS/God and LDS/Jesus are false gods they ought to be ignored. If B/God is true then we ought to turn to Him instead and trust Him, and worship Him.

ready...go

[pushka]

Originally posted by Red@Nov 26 2005, 08:32 AM

An example I argue from is this:  Abraham 2:22-24, PGP.

"22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, The Lord said unto me:  Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say--She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:

24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live."

←

I'm not really in a position to enter fully into this debate, however I just wondered about this quote above, as I often confuse LDS 'scripture' about Abraham and OT prophets and what not, with Bible quotes/versions of stories told.

Red, can you tell me if there is a similar telling of this story in the Bible, concerning Abraham and his wife Sarah? or is nothing like this mentioned in the Bible at all?

Just curious.

[Snow]

Red,

For someone who is capable of having a reasonable discussion, aren't more than a little embarrassed by the caliber of that last post? No? You ought to be. It's pathetic.

1. In case you have never read the Bible, Sarah was Abrahams sister. Nevermind that the Bible condemns incest and curse those that participate in it, but it was good enough for God's prophet Abraham.

2. You say that a god that tells his servant to mislead by telling the truth in order to save your life and the life or your wife is an evil god. Yet you claim that a god that would:

-instruct his followers to declare war on it's enemies

-if terms of peace are accepted, then the enemies are to become slaves

-if the terms are not accepted then god's people are to kill all the men and take as booty all the women and children (one guess what it means to take a women ast booty) and steal all the murdered enemies possessions (Deut 20)

or

-instruct his followers steal their enemies cattle and commit arson

-kill the non-virgin women

-kidnap the young girl virgins (take a guess for what purpose) (numbers 31)

Golly what a comparison:

Bad = tell the truth to save your wife's life

Good = murder, rape, pillage, steal and burn.

[Snow]

The second part of your post is as sad as the first.

1. Never did God instruct his prophets to join Church's that were not true.

2. From the very day it was founded, the LDS Church was a missionary church sending out missionary to preach the gospel and convert any and all who would receive it.

[Snow]

Originally posted by pushka@Nov 26 2005, 01:46 AM

Red, can you tell me if there is a similar telling of this story in the Bible, concerning Abraham and his wife Sarah?  or is nothing like this mentioned in the Bible at all?

Just curious.

←

His point is that Abraham misleads in both the Bible and the BoA but in the BoA, the suggestion from from God.

What he doesn't tell you is that Abraham didn't lie as Sarah really was his sister - yes that's incest and was forbidden by God but Abraham was God's chosen prophet and letting the Egyptians draw incorrect conclusions about Sarah (in order to save her from being raped and himself killed) did not bother the Lord - if the Bible is to be believed.

Now why do you think that Red left that part off his post?

[pushka]

Thanks Snow...I'll leave you and Red to debate his motives! LOL

[Red]

Originally posted by pushka@Nov 26 2005, 04:46 AM

I'm not really in a position to enter fully into this debate, however I just wondered about this quote above, as I often confuse LDS 'scripture' about Abraham and OT prophets and what not, with Bible quotes/versions of stories told.

Red, can you tell me if there is a similar telling of this story in the Bible, concerning Abraham and his wife Sarah?  or is nothing like this mentioned in the Bible at all?

Just curious.

←

Yes, you'll find a very different version of Abraham and the Egyptians in Genesis 12. Long story short, the lie was Abraham's idea, not God's. If you read on into chapter 13, you'll find Abraham calling on the Lord, as if in repentance. Also, in Genesis 20 he tries the same stunt again, but with a philistine king named Abimelech. In both instances the pagan kings condemn Abrahamic for a great sin.

as long as we're not cats, curiousity is good.

[Red]

Of course Sarai was Abraham's sister (half sister). That's common knowledge. That's why I said Abraham "lied by omission," that is, omitting Sarai's wifehood to the extent where both pagan kings in Genesis 12 and 20 almost took her as a wife, thinking she was only his sister.

In the Bible Abraham sinned, not God.

[Red]

Snow,

I'll be reading up on Deut 20 and Num 31. But for now I would say that you're shooting yourself in the foot with that kind of argument--is God good at all? But then you say that if God does it, it must be good. No dice, what if it's not the true God speaking in the LDS canon? We would certainly know him by his fruits: lies and divisions.

[Uncomman]

Originally posted by Red@Nov 26 2005, 02:32 AM

If the LDS/God and LDS/Jesus are false gods they ought to be ignored.  If B/God is true then we ought to turn to Him instead and trust Him, and worship Him.

ready...go

←

There is only one God: the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph.

[Red]

And in reference to the first vision, God never had to tell the OT prophets to "join the false church" because they were already a part of it (Israel), not that there was a false churche at all, but that Israel had become corrupt. They were never instructed to form their own sect and form a new religion, missionary or not--Islam is even "missionary" in that sense, along with every other cult I know of.

The JWs for example, split off and then sought converts, separation restoration mentality. The OT prophets sought reform from within Israel, because God does not reject His people. However, the LDS God is show as rejecting all Christiandom.

Yes the LDS church has always been missionary, but not in the biblical way. They broke off, drew a line in the sand then said, "if you're not with us (our church) then yours is the church of Satan." That fails to rise above the bickering denominations.

Instead, the Biblical model is to call God's people back to God, to reform from within. The OT prophets did this, Jesus did this, the 1st century church did this and even the protestant reformers sought reform from within. The call is never for the "right" church but to repent and turn to God. A person is either for or against Jesus, not the church.

[Red]

Explain how God lying (i.e. instructing to lie) is good? Also, how could a good God put Sarai in a position where she might need to commit adultery?

[pushka]

Red, thanks for your reply to my question too...looks like I'm gonna have to take up reading my Bible again afterall!!

Thinks...will have to read an online Bible as mine went missing years ago!!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Nov 26 2005, 12:11 PM

Snow,

I'll be reading up on Deut 20 and Num 31.  But for now I would say that you're shooting yourself in the foot with that kind of argument--is God good at all?  But then you say that if God does it, it must be good.  No dice, what if it's not the true  God speaking in the LDS canon?  We would certainly know him by his fruits: lies and divisions.

←

I didn't say that God was not good. I just think your argument that a god who instructs Abraham to leave out unnecessary details in order to save Abraham's life and prevent his wife from being raped = bad, while a god who instructs his followers to murder, pillage, steal, kidnap and rape = good is about as idiotic as one can get without being a Barry Manilow fan.

[Red]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 26 2005, 05:27 AM

Golly what a comparison:

Bad = tell the truth to save your wife's life

Good = murder, rape, pillage, steal and burn.

←

Snow, this is a misrepresentation, and you would know that if you took your time with the OT text. Not to mention, I don’t recall mentioning the Pentateuch in this discussion, isn’t it the word of God? Didn’t God judge righteously throughout the Bible? Before I go on, let me try and guess what your real position is on the matter; is it:

GOOD = tell the truth to save your wife's life

BAD = murder, rape, pillage, steal and burn…?

In this case it would seem to be a self-defeating argument, if you as a Mormon claim that the same God who commands the first order is the same God who gave the second. That doesn’t work very well of course, unless you are thinking in the back of your mind that the Pentateuch is so screwed up and corrupted by all those impish little scribes throughout the ages that the god currently portrayed in the first five books of the Bible is in fact evil. Such a claim of course would rest on the credibility of your prophets (not hard evidence), and again, you have seemed to question their credibility before. Or perhaps it is more like:

GOOD = tell the truth to save your wife's life

GOOD = murder, rape, pillage, steal and burn…?

Yes? No? Maybe so? It would appear to be a more consistent position except that I don’t think you are very fond of “murdering, raping, pillaging, stealing and burning.” So I don’t think it’s this one. BAD/BAD wouldn’t work either. Really, out of four possible combinations, I don’t think that any are your position. Do you have a position on this, or are you just throwing out objections? If you have a position to stand on then let’s hear it.

But here’s mine:

BAD = LDS/God instructing Abraham to withhold vital information from Pharaoh (i.e. that Sara was both his sister AND WIFE), putting his wife up to a marriage on the pretext of a lie and forcing her into a situation where she might have to commit adultery, all to save her husband.

GOOD = God waging war in His perfectly Just way, not commanding rape and murder, but executing judgment.

[Red]

As I said I would, I have studied Deuteronomy 20 and Numbers 31 over the last month and found them to be in harmony with God’s perfect and Just character. Also keep in mind this verse:

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war” (Revelation 19:11).

So if you would like to contend that the God portrayed in the Pentateuch is not the true God, being an evil tyrant as so many like to say, then be my guest. But I’ll assume that you agree with me about the Pentateuch being the word of God and that the true God is represented in it.

Now let’s look again at the Book of Abraham account and the Genesis account of what happened. First I’ll summarize the Book of Abraham 2:21-25 (that’s right, only 5 verses for the whole incident, that should tell us something right off the bat).

V21: Abraham decides to go to Egypt because of the famine in Canaan. On a side note I find it odd that he refers to himself as “Abraham” when in fact he is still called “Abram” at this time. The Egypt incident happens when Abram is 70 years old but the name-change does not occur until he is 99. So, yes, you could say that Abraham must have written the book of Abraham some time after he turned 99, reflecting on the past. But it was always my understanding that this book was supposed to be his personal diary written while sojourning in Egypt. This could be a problem, you may want to look into it.

V22: The LDS/Lord describes how Sarai is a very beautiful woman…(strangely she is called “Sarai” instead of “Sara.” Now if this were a diary writing in the present tense the use of Sarai makes sense, but not if used alongside “Abraham”…)

V23: …he continues, saying that if the Egyptians know that she is Abraham’s wife, they will kill Abraham and keep Sarai…

V24: Now LDS/God says, “Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.” Notice it says “say…she is thy sister” to the exclusion of the possibility that she was his wife! This is a lie through an through, and if we say that LDS/God instructed Abraham to tell it then God is a liar, possibly worse than a liar in that he caused Abraham to stumble. Not to mention that this lie only solves half the problem: sure Abraham will live and even benefit from the lie, but his wife will be taken by the Egyptians, falsely thinking that she is simply his sister. Sorry, but I think the real God could do a little better than that.

V25: Abraham follows through by instructing Sarai to lie as well, and then that’s it. They all lived happily ever after right?... Chapter 3 starts, and its all about Kolob, the pre-mortal life and creation by multiple gods, no more narrative about Abraham’s life in Egypt.

[Red]

The Genesis account is very different, showing Abram to be caught red-handed in a lie, his actions NOT at all being condoned by God, but Abram is publicly reprimanded by a pagan king. I’ll do another little commentary, Genesis 12:7-13:4…

V12:7—YHWH appears to Abram and essentially gives him the deed to the promised land. Abram builds an altar to commemorate.

V12:8—Abram journeys to Bethel “the House of God,” later named as such by Jacob. He builds another altar and “calls upon the name of the LORD.” This would have to be worship.

V12:9-10—At this point the famine hits, and Abraham chooses to go down to Egypt. Imagine his situation: he’s just traveled across the fertile crescent based on an unproven promise and then met God who confirmed again the promise. Things are looking like they might just work out after all—we might even call this a “mountain top experience;” but then whammo, a massive famine hits, so much for the “Promised Land.” This was certainly a test of faith, a scenario many of us believers are familiar with in our walk, but it seems to me that Abraham failes the test on this occasion. Instead of trusting in God to provide, he leaves the land that was given to him and goes to a pagan nation and relies on them for sustenance.

V12:11-13—Things are starting to snow-ball as Abram continues to trust in himself—not God. Coming into Egypt he notices a problem: “If they know that she’s my wife, they will kill me and take her.” And what is the alternative (besides turning around and trusting God)?: “…if they think that I’m only her brother [which, hey, I am her half brother] then they won’t kill me or rape her but treat me like an in-law.” Read it for yourself, but really, Abram is giving his wife the shaft right here, because either way she is likely to be desired as a wife by someone else and put in a position to commit adultery; and in the latter scenario she is put there by her own husband while he reaps the benefits of joining a new family. This is twisted and plain wrong, they should have turned back at the first sign of trouble, but no, they both go along with it and sure enough the Pharaoh himself comes calling.

V12:14-17—From bad to worse: Pharaoah actually takes Sarai into his house! Adam Clarke says, “When a woman was brought into the seragilo or harem of the eastern princes, she underwent for a considerable time certain purifications before she was brought into the king's presence.” Basically she was engaged to Pharoah! It was only a matter of time before she “officially” became his bride, thus committing adultery; all the while Abram was getting rich!—loading up on sheep, oxen, donkeys and human servants, among whom would have been none other than Hagar, and we all know how that turned out! But thank God because, “It was in this interim that God plagued Pharaoh and his house with plagues, so that Sarai was restored before she could have been taken to the bed of the Egyptian king.” Despite Abram’s failures, God intervened.

V12:18-20—“What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.” …Here’s some irony for you: the king of a pagan nation coming out of this story more righteous than—in fact the victim of—God’s man, the father of the Jewish nation. Can you see by Pharoah’s outrage that the little part about Sarai being Abram’s wife might’ve been a big deal? No one, not even the pagan king wanted to commit adultery, but Abram’s lie nearly brought it to that point, but God bailed them out, and they were escorted out of the country—deported back into a famine stricken land. Sure they were richer now, whoopi. The wealth will later create tension between Abram and Lot, and as mentioned before, Hagar will also turn out to be another of Abram’s mistakes.

V13:1-4—The story comes full circle. Abram goes to Bethel again and calls on the name of the LORD. But this is different than before, and it is important that it’s mentioned, in that last time he was here he was probably praising God, but was now probably asking for forgiveness.

In the Genesis account, the lie that caused so much trouble, and nearly brought on so much more sin was Abram’s idea, his failure. But in the LDS Book of Abraham the lie was LDS/God’s idea. Who do we trust?

[Red]

Originally posted by Uncomman@Nov 26 2005, 03:33 PM

There is only one God: the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph.

←

You are absolutely right. There is only one God, but the question is: does the Pearl Great Price truly portray Him? Or does the Bible? Is it both?

I would have to say that only the Bible shows Him as He is. When I say "LDS/God" or "LDS/Jesus" I am refering to someone who

I consider either imaginary, or a demonic imposter of the true living God Himself.

[Red]

Originally posted by Red@Nov 26 2005, 03:37 PM

Explain how God lying (i.e. instructing to lie) is good?  Also, how could a good God put Sarai in a position where she might need to commit adultery?

←

Snow, its been nearly a month and you haven't replied to this? Really, along any post I've ever made, its open to anybody.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Dec 18 2005, 04:19 PM

BAD = LDS/God instructing Abraham to withhold vital information from Pharaoh (i.e. that Sara was both his sister AND WIFE), putting his wife up to a marriage on the pretext of a lie and forcing her into a situation where she might have to commit adultery, all to save her husband.

GOOD = God waging war in His perfectly Just way, not commanding rape and murder, but executing judgment.

←

Guess we will just have to disagree.

You think that instructing your people to kill the men, murder the married women, rape the virgins, kidnap and enslave the children, and steal the cattle is perfectly acceptable and moral.

I think that is (no hyperbole) one of THE most stupid things I have ever heard.

You would make great dinner company at a celebration party for Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot and Atila the Hun.

Bon Appetite!

[Red]

Originally posted by Snow@Dec 18 2005, 07:55 PM

You would make great dinner company at a celebration party for Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot and Atila the Hun.

Bon Appetite!

←

Ok, then what DO you think about what God did or didn't do in Deuteronomy 20 or Numbers 31? Did you actually study these passages and crossreference for the larger context (especially important for Numbers 31)? Did you pay close attention to the difference between what were Israel's sins and and what God commanded? Or are you just spittiong out some rhetoric you on some anti-christian/bible website (like the ones I've been to). At least tell us what you think about the God of the Pentateuch so that when I show you what I found I'll know better which objections to answer.

And I thought you were trying not to say silly things? This list is piling up: my parents shacked up, I'm a love child, my sister sleeps around with sailors and now my best chum is Ol' Dolphy. You forgot my brother, what's he been up to?

[Guest sugarbay]

Red, do you have any other hobies besides Mormon bashing? Hwne it all comes out in the wash you are going to wish youhad taken up knitting istead, despitethe fat the Father loves you even if you are a dolt.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red+Dec 18 2005, 04:34 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Red@Nov 26 2005, 03:37 PM

Explain how God lying (i.e. instructing to lie) is good?  Also, how could a good God put Sarai in a position where she might need to commit adultery?

←

Snow, its been nearly a month and you haven't replied to this? Really, along any post I've ever made, its open to anybody.

←

Did she committ adultery?

It's a non-issue. God knew the outcome before it even started.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red+Dec 18 2005, 07:50 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Dec 18 2005, 07:55 PM

You would make great dinner company at a celebration party for Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot and Atila the Hun.

Bon Appetite!

←

Ok, then what DO you think about what God did or didn't do in Deuteronomy 20 or Numbers 31? Did you actually study these passages and crossreference for the larger context (especially important for Numbers 31)? Did you pay close attention to the difference between what were Israel's sins and and what God commanded? Or are you just spittiong out some rhetoric you on some anti-christian/bible website (like the ones I've been to). At least tell us what you think about the God of the Pentateuch so that when I show you what I found I'll know better which objections to answer.

And I thought you were trying not to say silly things? This list is piling up: my parents shacked up, I'm a love child, my sister sleeps around with sailors and now my best chum is Ol' Dolphy. You forgot my brother, what's he been up to?

←

God commands killing the enemies of his people, murdering their wives, raping their virgins, enslaving their children and your response is that you read about it and thought it was fine and since I disagree with you, I must be spouting rhetoric.

You are not a serious discussant.

[LionHeart]

Red,

I think the comparison Snow was making was merely to point out that commanding Abraham to tell Pharoah that Sara was his sister was much less far fetched than the Lord commanding his people to loot, pilliage, and burn. And since you agree on the latter, it shouldn't be hard to believe the first.

Anyway, your argument doesn't hold water. Who is to say that when Abraham went to Egypt, he wasn't commanded by the Lord? Does the bible say specifically he did it on his own accord; and same with telling Pharoah that Sara was his sister; either way she would have been in a situation to commit adultery; except in doing it the way they did it, Abraham wasn't killed. And the only reason the pharoah spared his life upon finding out the truth is because he found out the truth through divine message. He didn't spare Abraham because he suddenly became more righteouse than Abraham.

But let's consider the time that the Lord told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. I don't think even you can deny that the bible says the Lord commanded him to do so. But if we look at it with your way of thinking, isn't it against God's principles to kill? If so then why did he command Abraham to kill Isaac? But then you say "Well he later sent an angel to stop him from doing it and to tell him that it was just a test; so he didn't really mean it." So are we to infer from this that God is a liar? It sounds to me like you're just looking to argue.

And moreover, who are you to call Abraham a filthy sinner? Until you can prove that you are more righteous than him, I would suggest that you keep your viscious remarks to yourself.

But this isn't the true question. The true question is this: WHAT IN THE WORLD?

You claim that you are here to teach the LDS people the truth; but I think it's just some lame excuse to attempt to cover up your spreading hate and discontent. Because if you were here to teach the truth, you wouldn't suddenly start visciously bashing everything they have been taught and hold dear.

So run along little boy. I suggest you take your nonsense elswhere and feed it to the birds. You might have better luck with them. As for us, we don't want your kind around here. We're finished with this argument.