Good God, Bad God?

[Red]

Originally posted by LionHeart@Dec 19 2005, 12:21 AM

Red,

I think the comparison Snow was making was merely to point out that commanding Abraham to tell Pharoah that Sara was his sister was much less far fetched than the Lord commanding his people to loot, pilliage, and burn. And since you agree on the latter, it shouldn't be hard to believe the first.

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By "much less far fetched" do you mean "not nearly as bad as" or "more likely to be true than"...? In the first possibility (since I'm not sure which you mean) you are accusing our God of committing injustice, or at least seem to be implying that what God commanded was wrong. Do you, or do you not think that the commands of the God of the Penteteuch are in harmony with this verse, "in righteousness He judges and wages war" (Revelation 19:11)? If His commands in the Pentateuch are in harmony with this, then it was not rape, murder and pillaging which was commanded but judgment. Though of course, what God commanded and what the Israelites did were often different things. I'll post on this more, later.

In the latter case of what "less far fetched" might mean, I hope you (or Snow) are not implying that the Penteteuch is a distorted record, not showing God in a true light.

Originally posted by LionHeart@Dec 19 2005, 12:21 AM

Anyway, your argument doesn't hold water. Who is to say that when Abraham went to Egypt, he wasn't commanded by the Lord? Does the bible say specifically he did it on his own accord; and same with telling Pharoah that Sara was his sister... 

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The Genesis 12 does not hint in any way whatsoever that it was God's idea to leave the Promised Land or lie about Sarai. Instead it simply says that "Abram went" because of the famine (to the exlcusion of God's input), and "he said to Sarai his wife" because of the threat from the Egyptians (again, God does not enter into this equation anywhere). To say "who is to say..." is to take a jump outside of the plain meaning of the text. There is no warrant for the "what if" in this case.

However, if the Book of Abraham attributes the lie to God, then it blames God for Abram's misdeeds--not a good thing!!

Originally posted by LionHeart+Dec 19 2005, 12:21 AM-->

...either way she would have been in a situation to commit adultery; except in doing it the way they did it, Abraham wasn't killed.

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We are talking about a God who sends angels with flaming swords, floods, pillars of fire from the sky and plagues all for the sake of protecting His people. O wait, God did send a plague on Pharoah's house to put the situation to a stop. So don't you think that this same God would have protected Abram if telling the truth would have put his life in danger? Don't you think that if the Egyptians made an attempt to take Sarai by force that God would have gladly struck them blind or something like what happened to the men in Sodom (Genesis 19:11)? Sorry, but God could have provided many other way of getting out of this situation that Abram's idea of lying to the king of the country whose hospitality they were seeking.

Originally posted by LionHeart@Dec 19 2005, 12:21 AM

And the only reason the pharoah spared his life upon finding out the truth is because he found out the truth through divine message.

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i.e. by being plagued by God, which probably also sent the message that Pharoah better not mess with Abram at all.

<!--QuoteBegin-LionHeart

@Dec 19 2005, 12:21 AM

He didn't spare Abraham because he suddenly became more righteouse than Abraham.

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Of course Pharaoah didn't "become" more righteous. But in this case he is shown to be in the right and Abram to be in the wrong, nothing more.

Originally posted by LionHeart@Dec 19 2005, 12:21 AM

But let's consider the time that the Lord told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. I don't think even you can deny that the bible says the Lord commanded him to do so. But if we look at it with your way of thinking, isn't it against God's principles to kill? If so then why did he command Abraham to kill Isaac? But then you say "Well he later sent an angel to stop him from doing it and to tell him that it was just a test; so he didn't really mean it." So are we to infer from this that God is a liar? It sounds to me like you're just looking to argue.

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Yes, God did order Abraham to sacrefice Isaac, and God can do this because as the giver of life he has the perogative to take it away as he pleases. He does so every day doesn't he? In fact, since we are sinners he has every right to take all our lives right this second. In light of that He can order the invasion of Canaan or even the death of Isaac. We can also say that Abraham did actually kill Isaac, in that Abraham had fully committed himself to doing so. Remember, God looks at our hearts, in His eyes hate=murder and lust=adultery, so when Abraham finally said to himself that he would kill Isaac, the obedience was complete. In Hebrews 11:19 it says that Abraham recieved his son back from the dead "as a type."

Originally posted by LionHeart@Dec 19 2005, 12:21 AM

And moreover, who are you to call Abraham a filthy sinner? Until you can prove that you are more righteous than him, I would suggest that you keep your viscious remarks to yourself.

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You, me, Snow and everyone here, and even Abraham himself are filthy sinners (or at least he was when he was alive). Genesis portrays him as such, there is no justifying many of the things he did, just like there is justifying many of the things we do. So no, I will not prove myself more righteous than him, or even try to say that he was more sinful that me. I've lusted before and he committed adultery, but in God's eyes we both committed the same sin. Abraham's story onl;y goes to show that God will use dirty rotten little sinners like us to accomplish great things.

[pushka]

Red, I just wanted to lend you some support...I'm with u all the way on how you are interpreting the writings in Genesis...and I see now how you are interpreting the seemingly 'bad' things that God did when he commanded 'judgement' and the difference between what he may have preferred the Israelites to have done and how they actually did carry out his work.

[Red]

Lionheart,

(This is basically a rehashing of my email to you, but I thought it would be post worthy. Now that I finally got around to posting it).

I thought for a while about wether or not I wanted to argue with a fellow christian on this site, is that the christian thing to do? If it gets ugly, is that the sort of thing these good mormons should see? But then I remembered this verse:

"All scripture is...profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). I'm sure you know it very well.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING PRICELESS AT STAKE: THE MORMONS THEMSELVES.

So what does a guy like me do with that idea? I find them wherever I can and I talk to them on the street, in their churches and in forums like this. I am convinced that I'm called to it, sue me. I will not succumb to any guilt trip about "bashing" someone's beliefs which they hold so dear when as far as I can see it those beliefs are the very things that are killing them. I won't just sit back and let that happen.

I won't be "accepting" or "tolerant" of their beliefs at the cost of their lives. I won't "respect" their beliefs because doing so would make me a liar and possibly their murderer. We all know "friends don't let friends drive drunk" (not that many mormons would call me a friend). If you had a friend who had a few too many and was convinced he could drive, would you respect that belief? If he was insulted, thought you were calling him stupid or something, would you back off because you didn't want to hurt his feelings? No!!

Now don't ever think I'm saying that mormons are just a bunch of drunk idiots in need of my benevolent fatherly help...no, absolutely not. But I am convinced that they are drinking something which will eventually kill them. Think about the things I've said so far about their church, prophet and God, you can just scan this and my other topic and you'll get a good taste. Now, do you really think I say all that for kicks? I get my jollies out of berating other peopl? No, those things are not "fun" to write.

No, they have to hear all that before they might consider the other part of the message that I'm trying to get across, that there is a God out there who is greater than the one they are presently worshipping, who loves them more than they have ever known, and is reaching out to them. Don't unbelievers need to realize that they are sinners before they see a need for a savior? I approach mormons in a similar way since are all sinners holding to some belief.

So if someone, somewhere reads what I have to say and questions things for a second longer than they would have before, then maybe, just maybe a seed will be planted in them and it will grow. To me, that sliver of a chance is worth it.

Here's a scripture to leave on:

"Though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ..." (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

[Red]

Snow,

Was the editted version acceptable? And don't worry, if I wanted to complain about you publically I'd have posted under several screen names, but as long as I can trust you that you're not out to silence me (and I do believe you on that), but only controlling the qualioty of the site then I won't pull any stunt like that.

I thought I was back to normal status though? Oh well, doesn't matter, either something went wrong or others overruled you. I do btw, thank you stepping up for me back when you said you did.

I'll keep posting

--Red

[Justlooking]

I follow the Good God from the Bible.

Thru it all you see HIS infinite love, mercy, forgiveness, provision, accesibility, faithfulness, kindness, wisdom, generosity, and protection.

God is good.

God is love.

The only bad one is the devil aka satan.

[sgallan]

Just Looking _

There is an awful lot of things in the Bible that - if you or I did them - that would be considered as bad and evil as imaginable. Is it because it is God, that makes it alright? Do as I say..... not as I do? Do you see why the skeptic like myself might be a bit incredulous at such a notion?

[Justlooking]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 3 2006, 09:21 PM

Just Looking _

There is an awful lot of things in the Bible that - if you or I did them - that would be considered as bad and evil as imaginable. Is it because it is God, that makes it alright? Do as I say..... not as I do? Do you see why the skeptic like myself might be a bit incredulous at such a notion?

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Can you give and example please? And document it by book chapter and verse so we can look at it.

Thanks :)

[Red]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 3 2006, 10:21 PM

Just Looking _

There is an awful lot of things in the Bible that - if you or I did them - that would be considered as bad and evil as imaginable. Is it because it is God, that makes it alright? Do as I say..... not as I do? Do you see why the skeptic like myself might be a bit incredulous at such a notion?

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Are you referring to the situations in Deuteronomy and Numbers alluded to earlier? They were not looked at in detail.

But really any area you would like to bring up would be great.

And no, just because God does something does not make it automatically alright. God laid down the rules of what is right and wrong, He Himself is perfect and will not be inconsistent. So we can expect Him to act righteously in every circumstance.

The question of "if God does it is it alright" is really central to this whole topic. The main argument I am tryin to make being that the God of the Bible is righteousness while the LDS God is not.

One last thought: If God is the giver of life then He is also the rightful taker of life. When a human takes a life they are acting as if they themselve were God. Think about it, God kills off several million of us a day just by natural causes. For example my aunt is dying of cancer right now. Why? Because God said it was time for her to go home. Nothing more or less than that.

[jiggypoo]

Taking this approach as "God gave so and so cancer" to kill them/test them is dangerous. It inspires a "victim" attitude, and often creates confusion and anger in those impacted by such events. I've learned through real life that the perspective may be a bit different. My perspective is this:

Your Aunt contract cancer as the path of life she travels took her there. Whether God "wanted" to do that is nothing that we can judge.

I hope your Aunt will work through it, either to life or death - though the end is irrelevant. What matters is how she takes stride and faith in it - doing the good will of God despite her travials and suffering, and gaining capacity to empathize with others and become more as Christ is.

People die according to biology, bodily harm, etc, because their life path went there. God somtimes interviens into the cycle of life to change or alter its course (usually called a miracle), but I believe He lets the dominos fall where they may.

I'm not one that promotes the "God gave me this as a test", as all of life is the test, not just isolated moments where difficult things happen. Its about the journey, not the destination. Its about becoming greater than our natural capacity through the Grace of the Almighty God. Our WHOLE life is here to help us learn this, and then become this.

This is just my perspective.

[sgallan]

Can you give and example please?

Well if you take the Noah thing literally then mass extermination is generally considered pretty bad.

[Justlooking]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 6 2006, 01:43 PM

Can you give and example please?

Well if you take the Noah thing literally then mass extermination is generally considered pretty bad.

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Noah's time was filled with wickedness and interbreeding of fallen angels and females.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

It wasnt mass extermination since Noah was spared along with those he took with him in the ark.

God was deeply grieved and troubled with the wickedness that was going on.

The word in hebrew for grieved is `atsab which means:

1) to hurt, pain, grieve, displease, vex, wrest

a) to hurt, pain

B) to be in pain, be pained, be grieved

c) to vex, torture

d) to cause pain

e) to feel grieved, be vexed

The word in hebrew for repented is nacham which means:

1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted

2) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion

3) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent