Learning to spell?

[Elphaba]

Anyway, this new program that she was in (she was in 2nd grade) taught them to read by "sight" and not by phonetics. So, they got trained to look at the word as a picture and not a combination of phonetics.

. . . .

I would think if you are trained to look at a word as a picture, then you can "draw" that picture right back...

Actually, you are correct, and this method is very effective.

To illustrate, I used to be in charge of the post-secondary health curriculum in Utah (medical and dental assistants), and had to design a Medical Terminology course. This can be very difficult to master, but I developed a program that, for example, had the student visualize someone vomiting in a hotel lobby to learn the word "emetic." It was very successful.

Additionally, phonics often fails children who do not have a natural spelling ability, as the English language is almost completely non-phonetic. Children who struggle with spelling usually do rather poorly when phonetics is the only curriculum used.

Also, people who read the "word," instead of sounding out the letters, are usually excellent spellers and readers, but as I said in my previous post, these are usually people for whom these tasks are intuitive.

Interestingly, the same holds true for typing. If your fingers know how to type the word, instead of the letters, you are usually a very fast typist.

In fact, I have lost a lot of my cognitive abilities in the last couple of years, and I will start to type a word, only to have to stop because I cannot, for the life of me, remember how to spell it. But if I close my eyes, and just let my fingers type the word, it's always correct. I actually think that is rather fascinating.

Elphaba

[Guest]

In fact, I have lost a lot of my cognitive abilities in the last couple of years, and I will start to type a word, only to have to stop because I cannot, for the life of me, remember how to spell it. But if I close my eyes, and just let my fingers type the word, it's always correct. I actually think that is rather fascinating.

Elphaba

Something interesting too - when I play the piano without the notes and miss a key mid-stride, I tend to forget what the next keys are so I have to do it over from the beginning. This might be related to that too.

And about language being cognitive, interesting fact. I spoke 3 dialects other than english because my mom speaks a different dialect from my dad (the dialects are as different as ebonics is from english - lots of words are the same but it can be a challenge to understand each other) and both dialects are different from the National language (as different as french is to english). The really wierd thing is when I visit my mother's hometown, I immediately switch to her dialect and when somebody asks me to show them how to speak my dad's dialect, I couldn't do it! Then when we go home (I grew up in my dad's hometown), I immediately switch to his dialect and completely forget how to speak my mom's. But, I can speak the National language in either my mom's or my dad's hometown because I learned to speak it in school. I didn't just "grow up with it". Crazy, huh?

[Gwen]

While unemployed and seeking work, 2 places that I applied had a section where I had to hand write a business letter. I had to draft it and write it. No word processors to check spelling. It was all on me. Luckily I know how to spell so I wasn't worried. But for those that don't think it's all that big of a deal...you never know what situation you may find yourself that it because very much a big deal.

due to my learning disabilities and how horrid my spelling is i was allowed to carry an electronic dictionary to my classes and use it whenever i needed to. it did not give me anything but word choices if it was spelled wrong and the definition so i could know if i had the right word or not. i was allowed to use it on all writing tests that spelling counted on. it wasn't something i could program additional information into so there was no cheating, it was just a "spell check". when i wasn't "just a stay at home mom" and i found myself in situations like you describe and it would matter "more" then i always had this small dictionary in my purse. ppl who have an extremely hard time with things find their compensations and make sure they have them readily available.

what's frustrating is when you can't get your spelling of the word close enough for the spell check to put the word you want on the options list. even word processors are useless if you can't get it close enough for spell check to know what you meant.

[hordak]

due to my learning disabilities and how horrid my spelling is i was allowed to carry an electronic dictionary to my classes and use it whenever i needed to. .

I never understood using the dictionary for spelling. You can't spell something so you're told to look it up but the words are organized by... spelling.

Sure it can help some times but sucks when you try to look up

sycology

fone

bewtifull

cawt

ackchuel

becuz

buk

fut

rite

rong

etc.

[Gwen]

the phonics vs whole language issue.... we really need both in our language.

there are some words that the brain does not know what to do with. they are "holes" in the sentence. most ppl fill them in fine and have no issue. others don't. you need the whole language to learn those words. there are some words that do not fit the rules of phonics, sight words. you need whole language for those words. the problem with whole language is you learn to read and write one word at a time. if you have never encountered the word you don't know it. it's a big language to learn that way.

phonics teaches you the parts of the word. most words do fit the rules. if you know the rules you can read most words even if you don't know what that word is. if you know the rules you can hear a word and guess at the spelling pretty well. if you want to expand you reading ability and progress beyond where you are (the words you already know) then you need the phonics to do that.

spelling is not "natural". some ppl pick it up and may look like a natural and have a talent for it but as ppl in general spelling is awkward. we are a visual tactile species. let's see if i can write this properly.... lol... one of the examples i used with my parents that were trying to understand their children's dyslexia (it's something all have to learn but kids with dyslexia have a harder time with). take your cell phone. hold it in front of you like you are going to make a call... it's a cell phone. turn it upside down... it's still a cell phone. look at the back... it's still a cell phone. look at the phone of the person next to you.... it's a cell phone (may be totally different, flip phone vs a touch screen vs one with a keyboard on it). but they are all phones. it never becomes something different. as babies that's how we lean about the world. a chihuahua is as much a dog as a full size collie. but a cat the same size as the chihuahua isn't a dog. so we spend how many yrs of our lives trying to figure this stuff out and thinking this way, then we introduce letters. take a "b" and flip it and it's not a "b" anymore but a "d" turn it again "p" and again "q". well darn it, those are not the same things. as soon as we get that straight (hopefully) it's time to learn cursive. so everything you just learned about not changing the letters or you change what it is... that's not really true. that's just the written symbols, haven't even touched what sounds they make. spelling, writing, written language, it's abstract. it's not natural to a brain that has been doing concrete things for the last 6 yrs. a lot of ppl transition fine. others have a harder time with it.

one of my boys can spell anything. if he's read it he can spell it. we never study for spelling tests and he rarely makes less than a 100 (my brother was like that). his younger brother is more like me. we work our tails off and he still struggles. i'm always telling him to not stress it (i hate seeing him cry over a stupid spelling test). when it comes to spelling tests i don't care what his grade is. we practiced, i know how hard he worked and i'm proud of him. i think when it comes to learning the written language it requires a lot of patience and understanding. no two ppl are the same and for some of us it's really really hard.

[Gwen]

I never understood using the dictionary for spelling. You can't spell something so you're told to look it up but the words are organized by... spelling.

why i specified i used an electronic dictionary. works like the spell check in your word processor. gives you guesses. ppl who can't spell can't use a regular dictionary.

want to test yourself on how well you actually know the alphabet and understand the symbols of our language? the saying the sounds instead of the letters (i mentioned before) is one but also can you put a list of words in alphabetical order without singing the alphabet song? how many times when looking up something in the phone book you start singing the abc song? that's actually not a good sign. lol you should know what the basic sound is and what letter comes before and after it without singing or other such rhymes.

[Elphaba]

Something interesting too - when I play the piano without the notes and miss a key mid-stride, I tend to forget what the next keys are so I have to do it over from the beginning. This might be related to that too.

I also play the piano, and think you're right, though I've never come across any studies that say so.

I might struggle to learn to play a song, but once I have mastered it, I don't "think" about the notes at all. My fingers play the song without me consciously choosing what keys they need to play to produce the correct notes. My fingers used to "remember" a song I used to love to play when I was young, a little less than 40 years ago, but have never been able to find the sheet music for. Unfortunately, with the loss of my cognitive abilities, and I imagine just getting older, I can only play a portion of the song today.

And about language being cognitive, interesting fact. I spoke 3 dialects other than english because my mom speaks a different dialect from my dad (the dialects are as different as ebonics is from english - lots of words are the same but it can be a challenge to understand each other) and both dialects are different from the National language (as different as french is to english). The really wierd thing is when I visit my mother's hometown, I immediately switch to her dialect and when somebody asks me to show them how to speak my dad's dialect, I couldn't do it! Then when we go home (I grew up in my dad's hometown), I immediately switch to his dialect and completely forget how to speak my mom's. But, I can speak the National language in either my mom's or my dad's hometown because I learned to speak it in school. I didn't just "grow up with it". Crazy, huh?

Now that is interesting. I wonder what's going on in your brain that makes it impossible to speak certain dialects depending on the location.

I have absolutely no aptitude for languages, and I'm envious that you can speak three languages, or five if the dialects count (do I have the numbers right?).

Elphaba

[Guest]

I also play the piano, and think you're right, though I've never come across any studies that say so.

I might struggle to learn to play a song, but once I have mastered it, I don't "think" about the notes at all. My fingers play the song without me consciously choosing what keys they need to play to produce the correct notes. My fingers used to "remember" a song I used to love to play when I was young, a little less than 40 years ago, but have never been able to find the sheet music for. Unfortunately, with the loss of my cognitive abilities, and I imagine just getting older, I can only play a portion of the song today.

Now that is interesting. I wonder what's going on in your brain that makes it impossible to speak certain dialects depending on the location.

I have absolutely no aptitude for languages, and I'm envious that you can speak three languages, or five if the dialects count (do I have the numbers right?).

Elphaba

Ah - I never could get that right - dialect versus language. Filipinos generally call the different "languages" used within the Philippine archipelago as different dialects. So, my mom who speaks Boholano Visayan speaks a different dialect than my dad who speaks Cebuano Visayan which is different from the Tagalog dialect spoken in the north (another dialect that is commonly referred to by mistake as the Filipino language). But, Boholano and Cebuano are both variations of Visaya - which is exactly like Mexican Spanish versus Castillian Spanish being different variations of Spanish. Whereas Tagalog is completely different from Visaya as Spanish is from English. But, the Filipino National Language called Pilipino is a combination of the most common words of all the different Filipino dialects using Tagalog as the foundation (grammar, sentence structure, all other words not replaced by the dialect words).

So, I can say, I proficiently speak 2 Languages (English, Pilipino) and 2 dialects (Cebuano and Boholano). But, I can only write proficiently in 2 languages = English and Pilipino.

Now, that's interesting = because I can't spell ANYTHING in either Boholano or Cebuano unless I spell it phonetically. But, I can read it pretty good. I learned to write in both English and Pilipino in school. The letters are different - there are only 20 letters in Pilipino (no C, F, J, Q, V, X, Z, add letter NG).

Obviously, there is a letter C in Cebuano, so that tells me Cebuano has its own spelling - although, I never did learn it. So, I cannot write in Cebuano.

But, that all relates to the fact that I don't normally read Cebuano or Boholano material. Believe it or not, when my family write to each other, we write in English even if we speak Cebuano! We were taught to practice writing in English or Pilipino in school and it just permeated to our personal lives. Even my parents write to us in English - and they are bad English speakers.

There are tons of Cebuano books and magazines - they even have The Book of Mormon in Cebuano! I just never did pick up material in my dialect. Hmm... maybe I should change that. Then I'll report here if my Cebuano spelling improves.

:)

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

Spelling came very natural to me... I think it just has to do with me being a very visual learner. So when I'm writing, I visualize the words I want to type and so I know how they're supposed to look and can remember how they're spelled. I don't ever use spell checks, in fact usually I disable them because the red squiggly line annoys me.

And to whoever thinks spelling is mostly useless because of spell checks: a friend bet me that next time we meet, I can't spell

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia [Fear of long words. One of my favorite ]

Antidisestablishmentarianism

And no I'm not so great that I knew those automatically, as they're not common words I see when reading, I had to teach them to myself. But it's still useful as I'm going to get a free Coke per word.

And also, there's definitely something to muscle memory for both musical instruments [i relate to the story of messing up on piano and not being able to pick back up]. For example I typed the above mostly from practicing typing them. Muscle memory can happen with several things as, obviously, we have muscles everywhere.

But as far as teaching spelling, I think the best idea is to just expose them to words over and over through reading or whatever else, figure out how they learn best.