I Am Unsure

[Palerider]

hhhhmmmm..........James 1:5

[Christos]

No, my friend... you are doing excatly what Paul was warning against.

Paul wrote to members of the church... warning them to stay in the church and not move from it because others corrupt doctrine. You were in the church a short while and were moved from it.

-Val

PS: A long while ago you talked about the rock on which Christ would build his church (Matthew 16): that rock was the rock of revealation. Christ says "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven"... that's the rock he's talking about.

I was in the church, it was when I came to the LDS church that I felt that I had left it.

I started to feel like an outcast from the Christian community and once when I was walking home my cell group leader (from church) drove past very slowly. I was in a suit carrying my Bible, gospel principles and book of mormon and felt extrememly tense.

I don't think he actually caught on...only my bible was really on show but I was walking from the direction of the LDS church.

Since going back to church I have felt a lot safer and I feel that I am home again.

I accidentaly stumbled across this passage:

1 Timothy 4

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Notice, Some shall. The church will continue but there will be some who fall away.

Surely it is disrespective and even blasphemous to suggest that the sacrafice of Christ wasn't enough for us, to suggest that the works of a human man, would restore the church greater than that of the Son of God himself?

No, my friend... you are doing excatly what Paul was warning against.

Paul wrote to members of the church... warning them to stay in the church and not move from it because others corrupt doctrine. You were in the church a short while and were moved from it.

-Val

Look at that from my side.

I am sick of hearing James 1:5. I know that is the passage that inspired Joseph Smith but the amount of times I have heard that of LDS folk I feel like removing it from my bibles.

On a much bigger picture there are 66 books in the standard bible (more if you include the Apocrypha or other books somtimes included in Protestant bibles, like Ecclesiasticus and book of Solomon), there is more than one passage suggesting we should ask for the truth of God, seek and ye shall find.

Matthew 7:7

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you

[LionHeart]

I was in the church, it was when I came to the LDS church that I felt that I had left it.

I started to feel like an outcast from the Christian community and once when I was walking home my cell group leader (from church) drove past very slowly. I was in a suit carrying my Bible, gospel principles and book of mormon and felt extrememly tense.

I don't think he actually caught on...only my bible was really on show but I was walking from the direction of the LDS church.

Since going back to church I have felt a lot safer and I feel that I am home again.

I could be wrong about this but it sounds to me like this cell group leader's opinion means alot to you; and that it's the opinions of other people that caused you to feel the way you did.

I'm not going to advise you to join any particular Church, but I will advise that when you do, make sure it's not because of other people's opinions, but because it's where you are guided to by the holy spirit.

The Lord prizes someone who is willing to sacrifice their good name among men in order to serve him.

[Guest Gilvisto]

Surely it is disrespective and even blasphemous to suggest that the sacrafice of Christ wasn't enough for us, to suggest that the works of a human man, would restore the church greater than that of the Son of God himself?

Hmmmmm? What are you talking about? Are you talking about Joseph Smith? In that case... he restored the Chuch that WAS the Church of the Son of God himself! JS did it on Christ's orders... it was never Joseph's work to begin with. When has an LDS person claimed to be a church greater than the Son? WHAT? I have no clue what you're talking about...

The sacrifice is not enough to buy salvation, it is the way and we have to do our part. Faith AND works togther... not one or the other. But yes, the atonement was plenty for me.

-Val

[8cow]

I am sick of hearing James 1:5. I know that is the passage that inspired Joseph Smith but the amount of times I have heard that of LDS folk I feel like removing it from my bibles.

On a much bigger picture there are 66 books in the standard bible (more if you include the Apocrypha or other books somtimes included in Protestant bibles, like Ecclesiasticus and book of Solomon), there is more than one passage suggesting we should ask for the truth of God, seek and ye shall find.

Matthew 7:7

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you

So, you're saying, you believe in James 1:5, but you're sick of hearing it? Okay...

*hmmhmmm Matthew 7:7*

It's the same thing, people just know about James 1:5 more. Why does hearing it so much bug you? I DON'T UNDERSTAND!

I think you're just confusing yourself...

[Palerider]

Maybe a little humility to get on your knees and pray might be a good thing here.....ask and ye shall recieve ....knock and it shall be opened......

[8cow]

Or is it that you're afraid of the answer? So you figure if you keep delaying the prayer about it, you won't have to face up to your decisions and stands.? eh? You'll have to answer eventually for it, might as well get it over with, and if you don't post for a couple of days we know that "you stinketh not to us".. heh-heh.. sorry, lame joke.

Praying requires little, if any effort, as long as you ask with an open heart, you will receive the answer.

[jankirk]

Or is it that you're afraid of the answer? So you figure if you keep delaying the prayer about it, you won't have to face up to your decisions and stands.? eh? You'll have to answer eventually for it, might as well get it over with, and if you don't post for a couple of days we know that "you stinketh not to us".. heh-heh.. sorry, lame joke.

Praying requires little, if any effort, as long as you ask with an open heart, you will receive the answer.

I was unsure and did not want to pray in fear of the truth. But it was the best thing I ever did in my life. Go ahead give it a go. So you have to make some changes to your life. But take it from someone who really understands they are the best changes you will ever have to make.

[Christos]

I think I will go now.

It seems (and I know it is inevitable with any religion or faith system) that we (including myself) are all very narrow minded.

I do not think highly of other people, we are all the same, filthy sinful creatures with "skeletons in our closets". There is no true heirarchy on Earth apart from the illusion of one.

If we were to strip everyone of their robes and institutional titles we would only see a sea of naked bodies, each unique yet meaningless.

There is greater meaning to life than the lack of meaning.

Ecclesiastes 1

2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

We are all human and we fight by mouth and thought rather than sword we are certain in what we believe, yet how will we ever know what is truely true?

Faith is a much greater thing than we like to believe it is. Faith is not simple. It appears simple. A computer appears simple, it has simple casing with an on/off switch and a few ports on the back. Once opened it looks a lot more complex. Many many years are spent learning about the inside of the computer and how it can be used or how it works. Faith is the same.

Yet what we learn through faith we never challenge and it should not be challenged if we believe it to be infalliable.

But the works of tradition or authority should always be challenged, who is one man to preach unto another?

Authority should and must always be challenged, the authority figure is only right in his own estimation.

Proverbs 26:4-5

4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Oh how stupid the King James can be sometimes

The Jewish Bible translation (the Jewish bible is not a contradiction in terms, it is a bible made to help Messianic Jews and uses the same names for the books as a western bible)

4

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I'm not quite sure why I posted that .

I do not fear the truth, I embrace the truth in my heart as the truth is infalliable. However "a truth" is not true but only true to that person and though they may embrace it in their heart it can be proven wrong or simply not accepted by another person simply because they have reason not to.

The truth is that (as the famous Handel song puts it and Job 19:25-26)

I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day

upon the earth. And though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall

I see God.

I shall leave you all now.

I believe the bible is true, infalliable and the inspired word of God.

If it isn't are we to read decieving words? Anything that is false or decieves is not of God and therefore the devil.

Do not believe just the King James. That was written in 1611.

If you like old (and readable) english translation there is the Wycliffe which was written in 1395.

However I read many translations. I cross reference also.

The K.J.V. poetic as it may be is not entirely accurate. English language has changed since then and some words have even changed meaning (semantic shift) such as behavour used to mean "Conversation".

Study further.

I leave you all in Christ

Your fellow disciple

Christopher

ps: hope to see you in Heaven

(I will not return to this post or site. I have no need to, oh and the first half of the post was pretty random but I am a random kind of guy )

[Palerider]

[Christos]

It is now three weeks on the day that I typed my leaving post. I would like to share with you what I have been doing.

On the Sunday before my leaving letter I had gone to a Greek Orthodox church. I have been to that church again since then and will go this Sunday.

I have been doing a lot more studying and set my path straight. I know what my aim is and so I spend all my time worshipping and praising God but in a much stronger way now.

About 3 weeks ago I recieved a rosary I had ordered online. It is an anglican (not Catholic) rosary. It has 33 beads plus an invitatory bead and cross. I spend some time each day praying the Jesus Prayer, usually I do it 100 times in the evening.

You cannot know God by feeling alone but by truth, guidance and revelation.

I feel that my time in the LDS religion was worthwhile and I learnt a lot, afterall there is no such thing as a bad experiance.

I missed church last Sunday and so I had to find a church which was open on Monday for mass. I looked round and found there to be only one church, it is a high Roman Catholic church. So I went for the midday Mass and I enjoyed it. Though I wish I knew more of the responses, I knew most from my Protestant up-bringing and personal research.

I accepted the Eucharist at that church (though that troubled my mum, she says I am Church of England though I know that I belong only to one church and that is the true church of Jesus Christ). There was no wine, just the bread.

I have since had many dreams and visions concerning the LDS religion, dreams about temple building and stuff.

That is all for now.

Just to let you know I might stay on these forums as a semi-idle poster. Mainly just checking this thread.

The other forums I use are www.christianforums.com and my name on there is ramesses.

In Christ

Christos

[Palerider]

[8cow]

ditto..

[Christos]

[Palerider]

[Palerider]

.......And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the begining of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ......Ephesians 3:9.....KJV.......

[Palerider]

B)

[Guest Gilvisto]

Christos... I have one reccomendation... pick a church. And don't put too much faith in dreams... they are, after all, dreams, and even great prophets didn't (and don't) have miraculous visions very often.

I am rather curious as to your dreams on temple building... are they pro temple or con temple?

-Val out

[Christos]

I do show loyalty to my churches.

I have been with the Church of England for since I was born , but with this parish (ward) for about 6 years. I still go for evensong (evening service).

I have been with the Free Methodist church for 3/4 of a year and though I don't go to the services anymore I am involved very much so in the cell life of the church, in bible study and stuff.

I have been with the Orthodox church for a month now, I know that isn't long but I have only started going to it. Today because it is the start of meat fare (no meat for a week, lent starts next week!) we went out to a restaurant. I love Church and I have a good mix of East and West, Charismatic, Evangelical and Ancient.

I would say though that the Free Methodist church is more like a meeting house than a church and though it is good for establishing Christian fellowship the teaching tends to be limited and basic.

Dreams, like angels and miracles are not to be taken from God and God alone. Satan uses dreams, miracles and angels as mediums for his evil work, pretending to be good.

I do believe that fortune tellers are true, so too are Ouija boards BUT they are from Satan. It is amazing how much power Satan has over the Earth. As it says in the book of Job, the world is Satan's kingdom, some cultures take that too far and start believing that Earth is Hell (Gnostics). Not even hell belongs to Satan. (sorry for drifting off topic).

Anyway I will show you my dream. Whether or not it is from God is quite irrelevent.

Dream

It was a cold day and me and my sister and my mother and father left the house to go to church. We walked down the icy road and on the left there was the old clinic that has been converted into a Mormon chapel complete with a golden statue of Moroni on top, on the other side of the road (where the mormon church used to be) there is a massive tall tower, looks very cathedral like, the grounds were perfect and like a church there was a hall attached to the tower. On the top of the tower there was a statue of Moroni, again in Gold.

I thought it was a Christian cathedral and so discouraged my parents from going into the church.

In a large field ahead of us there were six white towers which had just been erected in a modern design. On top of one of the towers was a large gold statue of the angel Moroni.

Then me and my sister carry on (no further mention of parents). We come up to another church and I go inside.

There is a witch in the hall, pretending to be a priest. She is a female witch, quite beautiful and dressed in either deep purple or black.

The church was empty and my sister starts to attack a painting on the wall and I tell her to stop but she won't.

Then the painting is removed from the wall and there is a change in the wall, it is a liftable wall.

In the corner there is a small black lever. I pull on the lever and the wall rises to reveal a sort of vortex or gate into another dimension, a blurry circle of many colours, mainly green.

The witch is shouting at us and telling us not to look.

We push the witch into the vortex and she dissappears forever.

Then we start rearranging the furniture.

This is not a big hall and you could be mistaken in thinking it is a room of a palace.

There were two tables. One wooden and bland with chairs and the other was marble, white and elaborte.

The wooden set was in the middle of the room with the marble one to the wall, we change it so that the marble table now was in the middle.

I then see that an altar has been revealed, like a protestant church altar, simple white stone, long like a table.

I was transformed into a dog.

People started to come into the church to worship and I light candles. There is one guy who comes into the church wearing shorts. Another worshipper asks me why that guy is allowed in the church if he is wearing shorts and I say, "Lets look at the priorities, surely it is better that he is coming to church than he is wearing shorts".

Then I take a gold idol of an Egyptian Pharoah head out to be worshipped. I place it on a table and people light candles for it and a long line develops of those who want to kiss it.

End of Dream.

This dream is so vivid, even now after nearly a month of first recieving it. (8th February)

(edited on 26th February to read "gold idol".)

[Jason]

Christos... I have one reccomendation... pick a church and show a little loyalty.

Val, you're just a punk kid who doesn't know jack. Why don't you stop using peer-pressure, and open up and talk with Christos instead of insulting him?

[Guest Gilvisto]

You're right, Jason, that was perhaps uncalled for. I apologize.

I just don't understand how one can bounce from church to church and not have a problem with it... it confuses me. The New Testament says straight out "One faith" and "unity of the faith" several times.

I must say, christos, that your ability to retain vivid details of dreams is quite amazing to me.

-Val out

PS: "Punk" is one of the last terms anyone has ever used to describe me... lol...

[8cow]

Who's Jack? I know Jill.. haha.. sorry, just trying to lighten up the mood a bit.

[Christos]

It says "one Faith".

If the bible were to say "one denomination" then I would stick with one and only one.

It isn't like I am part of multiple faith systems for example, muslim, buddhist and Christian.

Orthodoxy isn't very big in England and the church I go to is in a community hall rather than a purpose built building (thus the restaurant and not a barbecue like most other orthodox churches do).

I am probably mainly Orthodox, that is because I am CofE by birth, Free Methodist for cell meatings and Orthodox for main services.

The difference is that LDS doctrine is radically different to other Christian doctrine and so it wouldn't be right for an LDS Bishop to preach in another Christian church. (note that I am not denying LDS of being Christian).

But if two churches hold the same doctrine it is surely acceptable for someone to preach between denominations.

There is only one church, one faith.

Christianity is built up of many religions, though it is only one faith.

There is little difference between Methodism and Church of England (apart from tee-totalism due to the temperance movement) and little difference between Church of England and Orthodoxy, doctrinally.

If I were to go to an Orthodox church bearing a book of Mormon I'm not sure if I would come out alive.

I wouldn't go to a Catholic church because their doctrine is different to Orthodox doctrine, they believe in Purgatory, mortal and venial sin and the infalliablity of the Pope. The same reason is why I no longer go to the LDS church.

[Acez]

hehehe....

[Christos]

What's funny?

This Sunday is Forgiveness Sunday!