Mormon Chapter 9

[Old Tex]

Okay I am really struggling to have faith here. I guess you could say that I used to have the faith of a child....all believing, all knowing, all trusting. Now I feel that faith been shaken as I realize that our leaders do make mistakes, are not perfect, give bad advise, etc.

I have also been pondering the mysteries of the Lord and why he would allow pologamy, not give blacks the priesthood, etc and if all this "revelation" was just shortcomings on man's part. But at the same time it is said that the Lord will not allow the church to be led astray. So I don't know.

Anyway, I came across this yesterday (yes, I'm behind!) and it just jumped out at me....It's Mormon Chapter 9 verse 9 and 10 in paticualar but the whole chapter really.

To save time I won't type it all here, but what do you all think of this in relation to what I said above?

Below are the two verses you speak of....... (First, I'm sorry that there is one big paragraph below. I have it broken into four, but it just won't show up here that way.)

9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no cvariableness neither shadow of changing?

10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles. Indeed, this is true, but Moroni is not speaking about what "changes" that may be needed in the Church today. God has a timetable for this earth. When the time comes for certain things to happen, He will bring them about. When the time for the Jews to come out of Egypt they were brought out by Moses and God gave them the lower law. When it was time for Christ to come into the world and provide the Atonement, He did that. When it was time for the gentiles to receive the gospel, Peter was given the revelation to that effect. When it was time to restore the gospel, Joseph Smith received the revelation to re-establish the Church. When Joseph received the revelation on plural marriage, he introduced it and when it was time to discontinue it, it was discontinued. Likewise, when it was time for all worthy males to receive the Priesthood, that revelation was given. The Lord is building His Church in preparation for His second coming. Just because He makes changes in it when it is time for them in order to "perfect the saints" this does not mean that He is changable in His holiness, perfection, and promises. He is the same in them. This is what Moroni was saying. It is good that you found this and that it has brought questions to your mind. These are the same steps that others go through during their growth in the gospel. This is what helps build a testimony. Many are the times that the same thing would happen to me. The answer did not always come right away, but it would eventially come. It will for you too.

Edited to add: I also reccommend Blacklds.org in case you haven't been there.

[Gaia]

To save time I won't type it all here, but what do you all think of thi sin relation to what I said above?

GAIA:

Hi There, Prend1 --

I was reminded of several things in reading your post; May i share them with you?

First, i'd like to say that i can certainly empathize with what i think must be your sense of confusion, concern, even worry, over your sudden questioning....It is NOT easy, to suddenly find oneself questioning things that one once strongly beleived.

Are you familiar with the phrase and idea, "Dark Night of the Soul"? It is a metaphor used to describe a specific phase in a person's spiritual life -- the experience of loneliness, grief, confusion and desolation of a crisis of faith. It is generally accepted to be a universally inherent aspect of spiritual growth -- as you a) survive it and B) work your way through it, it imbues you with spiritual wisdom and maturity. You might find some comfort and guidance in what others have said about it: Try these, to begin:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul

www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.t...

www.themystic.org/dark-night/

www.themystic.org/dark-night/

Secondly, i would like to address this idea that "the Lord will not allow the church to be led astray" -- With all due respect, that is NOT quite what was taught in earlier days of the LDS Church. The idea originates from, or was first expressed in, a lecture by Wilford Woodruff -- in relation to the changing policy on polygamy:

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

(Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

* * *

Now, the problem is that this is somewhat contrary to the teachings of Joseph Smith -- the Head of the Dispensation -- as well as Brigham YOung and other LDS apostles and prophets; and it is contrary to (other) scripture.

Here are some quotes for your consideration:

(IF the post seems too long for you to have to slog through, just note the bolded material in each quote --)

1. Joseph Smith:

"President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing ...the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.']...said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints --

-- Said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..."

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 237-38)

NOTE: Obviously, according to Ezekiel 14:9-10, it certainly IS possible for a prophet to "be deceived".

2. President Brigham Young:

"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him.

I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way.

Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually."

(JD 9:150)

"How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves."

(JD 4:368)

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...

Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,'this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord."

(JD 3:45)

"...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will NEVER be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods.

They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James,Peter, [or Bruce or Gordon] or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory,immortality, and eternal lives; never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom.

Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer."

(JD 1:312)

3. President Joseph F. Smith:

"We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Does the First Presidency require it? No, never."

(Journal of Discourses (JD) 16:248)

5. Apostle Charles W. Penrose, who would later serve as counselor to President Smith, declared:

"President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill ."

(Millennial Star 54:191)

6. "And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea.

Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves."

(Millennial Star, vol.14 #38, pp. 593-95)

7. George Q. Cannon, Counselor to three Church Presidents, expressed it thus:

"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president . If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;"

(Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in "Gospel Truth", 1:319)

* * *

These are just a few examples of quotes clearly indicating that each and every person is encouraged to seek the Spirit and know for him or her SELF, what is true, and what is not; and that even the teachings of the Prophets are to be put to this test.

Finally, if it were not possible for a Prophet to go or to lead the church "astray" -- WHY would the Lord consider it necessary to include an entire section in the D&C, giving instructions on exactly how to handle the apostasy of a Prophet? And, How would it have been possible for the several General Authorities who HAVE apostatized since the Restoration, to have done so?

My point here is to recognize that things are not quite as clear-cut-and-dried as they are often portrayed, by people who are unwilling or unable to accept such contradictions, anomalies, inconsistencies, or paradoxes... In my experience, Life is FULL of Paradox, and the Church doubly so.

The Church is not the Gospel, the Church is the (very human) institution that is charged with administering the Gospel. And the (perhaps difficult) truth is that the Church is subject to human flaws and weaknesses, and the fallen conditions in which it must operate (at least for now).

Sooner or later, every member must examine (and sort out!) their assumptions and wishes about the Church, from reality, and learn to deal with both, wisely and productively -- with grace, compassion, kindness, faith -- but also discretion, prudence, and (a goodly amount of) wit! -- relative to themselves, other members, and the Church itself.

Also, consider this: It can help enormously, to find others of like mind and spirit, who have also endured the "Dark Night" -- who can accompany and support you on your Journey.

I hope that is somewhat helpful to you in some way.

Good luck and Blessings to you --

~Gaia

[Maedoc]

At the end of the day I still dont believe that a loving and true God would deny his children access to his prescence. What about all the billions of people that have gone before us?? With only a smidgen of a percent doing temple work, doesnt seem like the best way to ensure ones salvation.

God is a loving God, and loves us so much, he wants the best for us, and for us to be the best we can be. This is why he gives us commandments. By following his commandments we become better people. We know we can follow the prophets' advice, because they only state the will of God, though we must pray and ask God ourselves, of course. (D&C 1:38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. ")

He is also a just God. In alma 42:13 it says "Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God." Laws, if broken, need consequences, or techniquely there is no law, meaning no justice, and hence no God. Since God is a just God, He needs enforce these laws. He will not force us to abide by his commandments, no matter how much he wants us to be with Him. Forcing is Satan's plan. He has granted us the atonement with which we can recieve mercy. Basically, it is up to us if we want to follow God or not, and if we haven't been, it is never too late to repent and begin.

On the matter of all the people that have gone before us, Temples will be open 24/7 during the millenium for the salvation of the dead. God knows about those who have not had the chance to visit the temple, and cares about them as much as you or me. During the millenium, everyone who wants their work done will have that opportunity. (That doesn't mean we don't need to do temple work, however. Temple work is a commandment. D&C 127:4 "And again, verily thus saith the Lord: Let the work of my temple, and all the works which I have appointed unto you, be continued on and not cease; and let your diligence, and your perseverance, and patience, and your works be redoubled, and you shall in nowise lose your reward, saith the Lord of Hosts. And if they persecute you, so persecuted they the prophets and righteous men that were before you. For all this there is a reward in heaven."

I hope this helps :)

[Gaia]

<div class='quotemain'>

At the end of the day I still dont believe that a loving and true God would deny his children access to his prescence. What about all the billions of people that have gone before us?? With only a smidgen of a percent doing temple work, doesnt seem like the best way to ensure ones salvation.

God is a loving God, and loves us so much, he wants the best for us, and for us to be the best we can be. This is why he gives us commandments. By following his commandments we become better people. We know we can follow the prophets' advice, because they only state the will of God, though we must pray and ask God ourselves, of course. (D&C 1:38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. ")

He is also a just God. In alma 42:13 it says "Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God." Laws, if broken, need consequences, or techniquely there is no law, meaning no justice, and hence no God. Since God is a just God, He needs enforce these laws. He will not force us to abide by his commandments, no matter how much he wants us to be with Him. Forcing is Satan's plan. He has granted us the atonement with which we can recieve mercy. Basically, it is up to us if we want to follow God or not, and if we haven't been, it is never too late to repent and begin.

On the matter of all the people that have gone before us, Temples will be open 24/7 during the millenium for the salvation of the dead. God knows about those who have not had the chance to visit the temple, and cares about them as much as you or me. During the millenium, everyone who wants their work done will have that opportunity. (That doesn't mean we don't need to do temple work, however. Temple work is a commandment. D&C 127:4 "And again, verily thus saith the Lord: Let the work of my temple, and all the works which I have appointed unto you, be continued on and not cease; and let your diligence, and your perseverance, and patience, and your works be redoubled, and you shall in nowise lose your reward, saith the Lord of Hosts. And if they persecute you, so persecuted they the prophets and righteous men that were before you. For all this there is a reward in heaven."

I hope this helps :)

GAIA:"

Hi There, Maedoc -

I've heard that argument too -- in fact, I taught it for years. But i'm just not so sure anymore that it's God's way of viewing things; i think it could well be humans' (mistaken) view. We humans seem to need reassurance that there's somebody maintaining the Rules -- Some great Galactic Traffic Cop -- who won't allow those who have injured us to get away with it.

I have begun to wonder whether our need for "justice" hasn't influenced our views of God and eternal Justice, rather than given us a correct understanding of how the Universe actually runs.

I really do beleive that this life is about experience, learning, and growth. And as such, i don't necessarily anymore buy the idea that God doles out "punishment" and justice --

Back when i was a student at BYU, we learned a very helpful form of discipline called "Natural Consequences". If you put your hand into a fire, you get burned -- not because someone "punishes" you, but because that's the natural action of fire upon your sensory organs, and in the long run, it teaches you about the dangers of fire.

Similarly, i hav begun to view the Universe acting less as a system of "Justice", and more in terms of acting according to "Natural Consequences" -- we experience the natural consequences of all our actions, thoughts, and intentions. If / When we send out positive, (sooner or later) we get back positive, which slowly teaches us that in the long run, being "good", ie kind, compasionate, humble, merciful, wise, etc - is GOOD for us and for others. I don't so much see God as a Traffic Cop anymore, i see God as a loving parent who -- like all loving parents -- stands by with compassion, understanding, mercy and Guidance, when we mess up. But not punishment-- we do that to ourselves.

And ultimately, i think we learn that Repentance and Forgiveness, (rather than absolute "Justice") is the way to short-cut (ourselves and others) through the more painful aspects of mortality.

Blessings --

~Gaia