One more question - Heaven

[RRR1]

Trying to understand the difference between beliefs. Why do Mormons believe in 3 levels of heaven? I think its 3, is that correct? I once heard yall get that from 1 Corinthians 15 but Im not seeing it. If someone could elaborate on this I would appreciate it. And for the record, I think Catholics believe in purgatory. i think that is ludicrous and is not supported by the Bible.

Thanks.

[bytor2112]

Perhaps a little backround from you might be helpful. Would you describe your self as a Protestant.....Baptist.....Evangelical...???? Incidentally, many beliefs aren't supported by the Bible.

[RRR1]

Perhaps a little backround from you might be helpful. Would you describe your self as a Protestant.....Baptist.....Evangelical...???? Incidentally, many beliefs aren't supported by the Bible.

Im Baptist but how is that relevant to what you believe?

[bytor2112]

Im Baptist but how is that relevant to what you believe?

You as in me Bytor? Or you as in you RRR1? I suppose it isn't relevant to your question regarding LDS views of heaven. But, helpful in understanding where YOU are coming from. I am a former Southern Baptist.......LDS convert.....so is my wife.

[bytor2112]

From Fairlds:

What marvelous light this vision has thrown upon obscure Bible passages! For example, what good does it do to know that there are three heavens if one does not know anything about them? Another example of a passage illuminated by this revelation is Paul's description of the glory of the resurrected body:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1 Cor. 15:40-42)

In the vision of the kingdoms of glory, the Lord revealed that this passage is not just a comparison of earthly bodies with heavenly, but also a reference to the fact that there are three different major levels of glory to which a body can be resurrected:

And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world. (D&C 76:96-98)

Origen, in the early third century, revealed that the early Church interpreted this passage in essentially the same way:

Our understanding of the passage indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars."[3]

He further explained that the highest of the three degrees is associated with the Father, and the second degree with the Son:

And some men are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely in Him. And third are those of whom we spoke before, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols.[4]

We shall see that Origen's doctrine of a fourth degree for the very wicked is fairly consistent with LDS belief, as well.

John Chrysostom was another witness to the fact that the early Church considered this passage to be a reference to degrees of reward in the afterlife:

And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in the earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment.[5]

This doctrine goes back much further than Origen and Chrysostom, however. Irenaeus preserved the same tradition which had supposedly come from the elders who knew the Apostles. Many think he received it from Papias:

And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the Apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the Apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."[6]

Clement of Alexandria also expressed belief in the three degrees, and echoed the Lord's revelation to Joseph Smith that those in the highest degree "are gods, even the sons of God." (D&C 76:58)

Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.[7]

Clement also preached that the three gradations of glory are procured by virtue of three types of actions:

[Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is . . . right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of . . . medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation.[8]

Other Systems of Multiple Heavens

Actually, there were several schemes for the structure of the heavens, with different numbers of heavens which varied also in their contents.[9] But even where three degrees were not specifically mentioned, it was maintained that various gradations of the elect exist. For example, Similitude 8 in the Pastor of Hermas discusses various types of elect. The editors of one collection of early Christian documents preface the chapter with this summary: "That there are many kinds of elect, and of repenting sinners: and how all of them shall receive a reward proportionable to the measure of their repentance and good works."[10]

Jesus, in the Epistle of the Apostles, made a distinction between the "elect" and "most elect."[11] And consistent with this, the Jewish Christian Clementine Recognitions reduced the number of heavens to two.[12]

One of the most popular schemes was that of seven heavens. Daniélou asserts that the idea of seven heavens was first introduced by certain Jewish Christian groups and "derives from oriental, Irano-Babylonian influences," while the older Jewish apocalyptic tradition and many other early Christian groups held to the three heavens scheme.[13] However, it appears that the seven heavens may originally have been consistent with the three heavens doctrine. For example, we have seen that Irenaeus preserved Papias's doctrine of three heavens, but in another passage he asserted that "the earth is encompassed by seven heavens, in which dwell Powers and Angels and Archangels, giving homage to the Almighty God who created all things . . . ."[14] As Daniélou points out, since the seven heavens were the dwelling places of angels, they probably were thought to have been gradations within the second of the three principal heavens.[15]

Edited May 1, 2010 by bytor2112

[john doe]

2Corinthians 12:2 makes reference to a man seen in the third heaven. This indicates to us that there are various degrees of heaven. LDS scriptures give much more clarity to this teaching.

Having modern prophets gives us so much more explanation to things lost in the original church, and help us find the correct translations and interpretations than if we were left to our own devices in guessing what they mean.

[marts1]

I am lds and I do not consider the terrestrial or telestial degree's of glory as heaven. I believe heaven is where God the Father dwells which is in the celestial degree. If you were to look up what heaven means in the bible dictionary which is included in the lds full set of scripture, it will tell you the same. It is true there are different meanings for heaven but the main meaning is the place where the Father dwells.

[john doe]

Doctrine and Covenants 131:1 states that there are 3 heavens or degrees of celestial glory.

[marts1]

Doctrine and Covenants 131:1 states that there are 3 heavens or degrees of celestial glory.

One level being a god, another being an angel, and another.....

[RRR1]

2Corinthians 12:2 makes reference to a man seen in the third heaven. This indicates to us that there are various degrees of heaven. LDS scriptures give much more clarity to this teaching.

Having modern prophets gives us so much more explanation to things lost in the original church, and help us find the correct translations and interpretations than if we were left to our own devices in guessing what they mean.

The first heaven is the Earth's atmosphere. (Genesis 8:2, Deaut 11:11, 1 Kings 8:35), the second heaven is interplanetary and interstellar space (Genesis 15:5, Psalm 8:3, Isaiah 13:10. The third heaven is the realm of God. (1 Kings 8:30, 2 Chronicles 30:27, Psalm 123:1)

[rameumptom]

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is probably the best evidence in the New Testament. Paul stating he knew a man who went to the "third heaven" shows us there are at least 3 heavens. Jesus also told us that "in my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2) each prepared for us with varying glory.

Early Jews/Christians believed in 3 to 40 levels of heaven. There are many ancient texts that show a belief in multiple heavens. Here are some of them:

The Apocalypse of Paul: The Apocalypse of Paul -- The Nag Hammadi Library

The Ascension of Isaiah: The Ascension of Isaiah

2nd Book of Enoch (Secret Book of Enoch): The Book of the Secrets of Enoch

Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 8): hermas

So, we have the Bible, early Jewish/Christian writings, and LDS teachings all agreeing that there are multiple levels of heaven. While many Christians try to pretend it is different levels of "atmosphere", it does not fit with several of the writings here, which clearly show levels of heaven. Also, LDS theology teaches that the planets and stars ARE a part of God's heavens - we believe the earth becoming Eden again, is part of the Earth becoming a heaven (earth and heavens will pass away, and a new earth and heavens will be formed).

Edited May 1, 2010 by rameumptom

[Justice]

The Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven encompasses all 3 kingdoms of glory. But, when trying to explain how we believe, the Celestial Kingdom is like your belief in heaven. Christ taught there are man mansions in "heaven."

We also believe there are 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom itself. So, when the Bible speaks of these kingdoms its sometimes hard to know which they are referring to.

"How we get it" is from modern revelation. The belief can be supported in the Bible, but not fully taught or understood.

[marts1]

Ever heard of "Father in Heaven" or "Heavenly Father". These are used to describe where our Father is, which is in Heaven. He does not dwell or even visit the lesser degree's of glory.

[RRR1]

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is probably the best evidence in the New Testament. Paul stating he knew a man who went to the "third heaven" shows us there are at least 3 heavens. Jesus also told us that "in my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2) each prepared for us with varying glory.

So, we have the Bible, early Jewish/Christian writings, and LDS teachings all agreeing that there are multiple levels of heaven. While many Christians try to pretend it is different levels of "atmosphere", it does not fit with several of the writings here, which clearly show levels of heaven. Also, LDS theology teaches that the planets and stars ARE a part of God's heavens - we believe the earth becoming Eden again, is part of the Earth becoming a heaven (earth and heavens will pass away, and a new earth and heavens will be formed).

The passage in 2 Corinthians doesnt mean 3 heavens. See my post at the bottom of page 1. The passage in John doesnt mean anything either. If you read it literally all the mansions are in a single "house" In order for you to believe there are more than one heaven, shouldnt Jesus have said I have many mansions in my Father's houses? Its funny how Mormons talk about Christians taking Genesis 1 literally but Mormons take things like this literally instead of taking the whole verse in context.

You might have early Jewish teachings and LDS teachings agreeing that there are multiple levels of heaven but the Bible does not agree. And Christians arent Mormons, so why should we fit our beliefs to Jewish or LDS teachings? Wouldnt that make us Jewish or Mormon? So youre pretend comment is pretty ignorant. You are correct that the current earth and current heavens will pass away and a new earth and new heavens will be formed but what does that have to do with levels of heaven??

[john doe]

The passage in 2 Corinthians doesnt mean 3 heavens. See my post at the bottom of page 1. The passage in John doesnt mean anything either. If you read it literally all the mansions are in a single "house" In order for you to believe there are more than one heaven, shouldnt Jesus have said I have many mansions in my Father's houses?

According to your interpretation. We have living prophets and apostles who teach us otherwise. Isn't ongoing revelation from God cool?

[bytor2112]

The passage in 2 Corinthians doesnt mean 3 heavens. See my post at the bottom of page 1. The passage in John doesnt mean anything either. If you read it literally all the mansions are in a single "house" In order for you to believe there are more than one heaven, shouldnt Jesus have said I have many mansions in my Father's houses? Its funny how Mormons talk about Christians taking Genesis 1 literally but Mormons take things like this literally instead of taking the whole verse in context.

You might have early Jewish teachings and LDS teachings agreeing that there are multiple levels of heaven but the Bible does not agree. And Christians arent Mormons, so why should we fit our beliefs to Jewish or LDS teachings? Wouldnt that make us Jewish or Mormon? So youre pretend comment is pretty ignorant. You are correct that the current earth and current heavens will pass away and a new earth and new heavens will be formed but what does that have to do with levels of heaven??

I posted plenty of early Christian evidence and you have chosen to ignore it. You have chosen to ignore all evidences that challenge your limited and error filled understanding of Holy Writ and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The things of God can ONLY be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Lord has revealed further light and truth and their is a Prophet on the earth today that is the mouth piece of the Lord. HIS church and HIS Gospel have been restored....rejoice!

[RRR1]

According to your interpretation. We have living prophets and apostles who teach us otherwise. Isn't ongoing revelation from God cool?

I choose to ignore false prophets. So ongoing lies from a false prophet who is proclaiming to be from God is very bad. See notes in Revelation about the antichrist.

[marts1]

Do you have some kind of proof to your claim?

[RRR1]

Do you have some kind of proof to your claim?

which claim?

[marts1]

Your false prophet claim.

[RRR1]

Your false prophet claim.

well I believe the Bible is final and complete. So anything added after that, such as the Book of Mormon, I believe to be false. Also things like the tearing of the veil signifies we dont need High Priest, prophets, etc telling us what to do and doing it for us. We can go to God ourselves.

[Dravin]

I'd take that as a "no" marts.

[marts1]

well I believe the Bible is final and complete. So anything added after that, such as the Book of Mormon, I believe to be false. Also things like the tearing of the veil signifies we dont need High Priest, prophets, etc telling us what to do and doing it for us. We can go to God ourselves.

I'm in total agreement with you, that we can go to God ourselves for answers.

[RRR1]

I'd take that as a "no" marts.

yep, just like you have no proof showing Joseph Smith is not a false prophet. Just like you have no proof showing Muhammad and Islam are false. Just like you have no proof that there are 3+ levels of heaven. Just like you have no proof proving the Bible has errors. Just like you cant prove the Earth is millions of years old. Just like you have no proof that humans lived before Adam. Just like you have no proof that the Earth is not the center of the universe. Should I continue?

[marts1]

You are correct. Usually faith is needed before any knowledge can be had.