Some Russian Leaders Propose Legalizing Polygamy.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

I can and will absolutely preach to anyone who will listen about the horrible way that women are treated, in Muslim countries and anywhere else. If you have to live in a perfect society in order to gripe about someone else's society, then how would any change ever be made? There is no perfect society.

I can and will also preach to anyone about horrible treatment of children, whether in this country, Iraq, Finland, or wherever! And yes, I will preach against NAMBLA and ACLU. It doesn't matter where anyone lives - wrong is wrong! Just because certain things are acceptable in their society doesn't make it acceptable anywhere. And yes, we are superior to the Arab countries in the way women are treated here.

But earlier you said you don't worry about changing society; that you have enough to worry about with your own family and friends. Did you not?

I understand that it upsets you, and it should, but like it or not you will not change Arab lifestyles. I've just been trying to help you see that much of our society is as revolting to them as theirs is to you.

EDIT: If we are to continue this line of conversation we may consider a different thread, as it's off-topic here.

[shanstress70]

But earlier you said you don't worry about changing society; that you have enough to worry about with your own family and friends. Did you not?

I understand that it upsets you, and it should, but like it or not you will not change Arab lifestyles. I've just been trying to help you see that much of our society is as revolting to them as theirs is to you.

EDIT: If we are to continue this line of conversation we may consider a different thread, as it's off-topic here.

I know I won't change their society, but I can sure say that they are wrong! They are more wrong for killing women than some in the US are for working in the porn industry. I feel confident in saying that.

[Outshined]

I know I won't change their society, but I can sure say that they are wrong! They are more wrong for killing women than some in the US are for working in the porn industry. I feel confident in saying that.

I don't disagree with that at all. I just recognize that they would.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

The whole point is that these non-Christian/anti-Christian nations do not change our country, or our sentiments, that the mistreatment of women and children is wrong, polygamy included.

And that flows both ways; we don't change theirs either.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Outshined]

The Iraqi people wanted liberation from a ruthless and despot madman; one guilty of all sorts of atrocities against women and children. They now have that liberation, and are very thankful for it, as demonstrated by the millions who turned out to vote in their first free election.

Yes, and I'm happy to have been a part of that. They have also shown an inclination to return to Shar'ia law, and voted many Shi'ites into office recently.

As a free country, that is their right; our only aim was to give them the freedom to choose.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[shanstress70]

Wooooooooohooooooooooooo! Go sister, soul sister! and Amen!!!

Glad to see we can agree on one thing!

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

Glad to see we can agree on one thing!

Thus far, we have agreed upon several issues. :-)

Yes, I suppose we have, actually.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

But earlier you said you don't worry about changing society; that you have enough to worry about with your own family and friends. Did you not?

I understand that it upsets you, and it should, but like it or not you will not change Arab lifestyles. I've just been trying to help you see that much of our society is as revolting to them as theirs is to you.

EDIT: If we are to continue this line of conversation we may consider a different thread, as it's off-topic here.

I know I won't change their society, but I can sure say that they are wrong! They are more wrong for killing women than some in the US are for working in the porn industry. I feel confident in saying that.

I really don’t know whether or not they are more wrong for killing women than we are for allowing people to participate in the “porn” industry, because I really don’t know their law, and I really don’t know how much each of them knows about their law, but I do know that God will hold each of us accountable for doing something that each of us knows to be wrong.

Or in other words, if killing women is legal in their country, or in other words, if their government sanctions or authorizes the killing of women, how would the killing of women be more wrong than those in the US who work in the “porn” industry, with the US sanctioning that?

And btw, I’m asking “how”, because I believe the “how” is very important.

Or do you really believe other people should believe something is wrong simply because some other people say it is wrong, even though their government actually sanctions it?

[Outshined]

I really don’t know whether or not they are more wrong for killing women than we are for allowing people to participate in the “porn” industry, because I really don’t know their law, and I really don’t know how much each of them knows about their law, but I do know that God will hold each of us accountable for doing something that each of us knows to be wrong.

That's what I was trying to say, Ray. They are living according to their understanding of God, and their laws are based on their religion. They are doing what they believe is right.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

I really don’t know whether or not they are more wrong for killing women than we are for allowing people to participate in the “porn” industry, because I really don’t know their law, and I really don’t know how much each of them knows about their law, but I do know that God will hold each of us accountable for doing something that each of us knows to be wrong.

That's what I was trying to say, Ray. They are living according to their understanding of God, and their laws are based on their religion. They are doing what they believe is right.

I know you were, Outshined. I was simply helping. :)

[Outshined]

I know you were, Outshined. I was simply helping. :)

Thanks!

[shanstress70]

Ray, I maintain that if someone kills a woman because she was raped, and her family feels the family has been dishonored, I do not care what their 'law' is. People who do that are wrong... plain and simple!

Anyone who does that is the lowest of the low. I say that as a Christian, and I would say that if I was a Muslim.

I am not discussing this anymore bc it's starting to really make me question men, in general. But then I know what my husband thinks on the matter, as we've discussed it. So I know that the one man that means the most to me is indeed civil.

[Outshined]

Ray, I maintain that if someone kills a woman because she was raped, and her family feels the family has been dishonored, I do not care what their 'law' is. People who do that are wrong... plain and simple!

Anyone who does that is the lowest of the low. I say that as a Christian, and I would say that if I was a Muslim.

I am not discussing this anymore bc it's starting to really make me question men, in general. But then I know what my husband thinks on the matter, as we've discussed it. So I know that the one man that means the most to me is indeed civil.

Shanstress, you have to separate the reality of Arab countries from your ideas about men, as to them it is about religion, not sex. The women there support the law as strongly as the men do. To them it is not wrong, but God's commandments. Though I strongly disagree with it, I recognize it as their belief and their law.

As I've said, the families are strongly matriarchal; the mother runs the family, and even picks the woman her sons will marry. The sons and father get no say.

It is an issue of religion, not sex, and should have no bearing on how you see men.

Anyone who does that is the lowest of the low. I say that as a Christian, and I would say that if I was a Muslim.

I forgot to address this: You probably wouldn't say that if you'd been raised with Islamic law and it was all you'd ever known.

We're very lucky to have been born in this country.

[shanstress70]

No Outshined, there are universal wrongs and rights. Killing a woman because she is a victim of rape is ALWAYS wrong, and in EVERY society. And I'm 100% sure that I'd feel that way if I was born and raised under Islamic law.

I know I'm lucky to be born in this country. I would have never made it this many years if I was born in an Arab country.

And for the record, the reason I said that discussing this matter makes me question men in general is NOT bc of the Arab men that we're talking about. It's bc I'm listening to American men say that based on their 'law', or because it's another 'society', it's not automatically wrong for women who were raped to be killed for dishonoring their family.

But my husband just came in and was bombarded with these questions. He's reinforced my belief that all men do not have the same views as you guys.

[Ray]

You missed the main point, shanstress.

"HOW" is someone supposed to know what is right and wrong?

And please don't say something dumb like saying: "Duh, they should just know"

[shanstress70]

You missed the main point, shanstress.

"HOW" is someone supposed to know what is right and wrong?

And please don't say something dumb like saying: "Duh, they should just know"

I don't know what point YOU'RE trying to make Ray, but I'm not missing anything. The point I'M trying to make is that it is wrong... period... regardless of where you live or what your society is like.

Now, maybe you'd like to share with me the point that YOU'RE trying to make.

[Outshined]

I'm seeing a bit too much emotion thrown in here, and Shanstress is missing what we're saying. We have not said it is okay or right to kill rape victims; in fact, if you read back you'll see that I've said it's wrong and terrible.

Ray's point is that if you've been raised with certain laws and religious rules, taught unwaveringly by your parents, your church, and your government all saying the same thing, you'll accept it as right. Every book, every newspaper, everyone you know telling you that it's how it is.

You may think that you'd question it, but reality is much different. They don't see the news you see, or the television shows, and they don't read the same books. It is very much a different reality. Islam is their lives, and it permeates every part of their society.

It may be best to end the discussion on this subject. You're getting upset at us for things we haven't said, and we can't make you understand what we're saying about the reality of Islamic culture. The time I've spent in those countries makes me grateful to be an American; if nothing else, I had that driven home to me while I was there.

They have been living exactly the same way for thousands of years, and they aren't going to change now for us or anyone else, so don't torture yourself about it. I've said all I plan to about it.

[shanstress70]

I'm seeing a bit too much emotion thrown in here, and Shanstress is missing what we're saying. We have not said it is okay or right to kill rape victims; in fact, if you read back you'll see that I've said it's wrong and terrible.

Ray's point is that if you've been raised with certain laws and religious rules, taught unwaveringly by your parents, your church, and your government all saying the same thing, you'll accept it as right. Every book, every newspaper, everyone you know telling you that it's how it is.

You may think that you'd question it, but reality is much different. They don't see the news you see, or the television shows, and they don't read the same books. It is very much a different reality. Islam is their lives, and it permeates every part of their society.

It may be best to end the discussion on this subject. You're getting upset at us for things we haven't said, and we can't make you understand what we're saying about the reality of Islamic culture. The time I've spent in those countries makes me grateful to be an American; if nothing else, I had that driven home to me while I was there.

They have been living exactly the same way for thousands of years, and they aren't going to change now for us or anyone else, so don't torture yourself about it. I've said all I plan to about it.

Yes, it is emotional for me, and hopefully every woman on this earth, and the men that love them.

I know you are saying iss terrible, OK?

My point is that it is a universal wrong to kill a woman who has been raped because she dishonored the family. And at least some, if not all, women who live there think it is wrong too, regardless of their upbringing. But if they try to get something changed, or make a stink about it, what do you think will happen to them?

There are some women in some of the more liberal Arab countries who are coming out against it, and trying to get these things changed.

OK, so I'm upset at no one (last night, yes... now, no). We just disagree on the matter. My stance is that it is a universal wrong for women to be treated that way, no matter what the society norm. :)

And it IS probably best to kill this thread, as it's WAY off topic and has probably been over-discussed!

[Outshined]

There are some women in some of the more liberal Arab countries who are coming out against it, and trying to get these things changed.

Yes, it only happens in the strict Muslim counteirs like Saudi Arabia. Kuwait is very liberal; women dress in jeans and blouses and drive American SUVs there. And women are in their government.

OK, so I'm upset at no one (last night, yes... now, no). We just disagree on the matter. My stance is that it is a universal wrong for women to be treated that way, no matter what the society norm. :)

Actually we don't even disagree; it is wrong, but it is their society and their law, and that's how they will do it no matter what we say.

And it IS probably best to kill this thread, as it's WAY off topic and has probably been over-discussed!

Agreed.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

I have heard conjecture that allowing gays to marry will lead to allowing other "non-traditional" unions, such as polygamy and brother-sister unions. Although I am not opposed to gay couples receiving insurance benefits, tax breaks, etc. as married couples do, I feel it should be based on a civil contract with an entirely different name than marriage. Words are powerful.

I freak out when I try to imagine polygamy in action. I do not think I would handle it well.