Christianophobia

[sgallan]

Kerry is a Catholic; despite the Pope's position against abortion, Kerry was pro-abortion.

So is he a Christian in your view. Or do we start to lower the 85% number by taking out all pro-choice Christians.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Kerry is a Catholic; despite the Pope's position against abortion, Kerry was pro-abortion.

So is he a Christian in your view. Or do we start to lower the 85% number by taking out all pro-choice Christians.

I know you were not addressing that question to me...but I feel I should speak up.

Of course Kerry is still a Christian!

As a Catholic, was he obligated to outlaw divorce? I don't remember seeing that in his campaign. What about outlawing contraception?

We know the Pope's position on those two issues, yet Catholic Presidents have never made laws to outlaw them. And we don't deny that those presidents are Christian. We just call it separation of Church and State.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Kerry is a Catholic; despite the Pope's position against abortion, Kerry was pro-abortion.

So is he a Christian in your view. Or do we start to lower the 85% number by taking out all pro-choice Christians.

True Christians do not advocate killing the unborn.

You may have a point.

On the other hand they don't spread false rumors about Jews burning down their own houses and prophet's wives trying to kill unborn babies so...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

<div class='quotemain'>

Kerry is a Catholic; despite the Pope's position against abortion, Kerry was pro-abortion.

So is he a Christian in your view. Or do we start to lower the 85% number by taking out all pro-choice Christians.

True Christians do not advocate killing the unborn.

You still have not responded to my lengthy post about Kerry.

As I said above, the issue of abortion is not clearly stated in the Bible. Some Christians do not consider a fetus to have a soul.

Of course, Catholics have an authority figure (the Pope) who says abortion is a sin...his interpretation of the Commandments. Similarly, the LDS have an authority figure to interpret scriptures for them (the Prophet) and a doctrine of pre-existence, which obviously has implications in the abortion debate.

So a more accurate statement would be "a true CATHOLIC (or LDS) does not advocate killing the unborn, right?

Now...Kerry is a Catholic. But there is another question. Does Kerry ADVOCATE abortion, or does he merely want to give people freedom to choose? I don't remember him ever recommending it as a form of birth control.

The LDS God lets people have total free agency, and then judges them for their sins. Perhaps Kerry believes in giving Americans free agency in cases of abortion, knowing God will judge them?

After all, judges have freedom to order the execution of criminals in some states. That is interpreted by MANY Christians as murder. But we give them the CHOICE to kill.

As I mentioned above, Kerry never stated that he would outlaw divorce or contraception...two things that the Vatican considers sin. If Kerry wanted to outlaw abortion and gay marriage, but keep divorce and contraception legal, would he still be a true catholic? A Christian?

What about making it illegal for people to work on Sundays? Your basis for being pro-life is the Bible, which means "Thou shalt not kill" (I assume). In the same books of the Old Testament where this commandment is given, it is clearly stated that breaking the Sabbath is an offense that in punishable by DEATH. So...if it is such an important commandment, why is this great Christian nation of the USA not enforcing it as law? Should we say George W. Bush is not a True Christian, because he never made a law that enforces the Sabbath? The Bible clearly states that the punishment for murder is equal to the punishment for breaking the Sabbath! How can our presidents who claim to be Christian so easily overlook such sin?

The answer is SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

I already made these points in my last post, but they were ignored...I would be interested to hear your response.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Sorry....my mistake. My original "Kerry" post was not specifically addressed to you, though I intended it to be a response to your original comment that Kerry was a "so-called Christian".

So I was interested in hearing YOUR response to my comments on Kerry, Catholicism and American laws...

[Aristotle]

Harold B. Lee, N. Eldon Tanner, and Marion G. Romney, “Policies and Procedures,” New Era, Apr. 1973, 29

In view of a recent decision of the United States Supreme Court, we feel it necessary to restate the position of the Church on abortion in order that there be no misunderstanding of our attitude.

The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.

Abortion must be considered one of the most revolting and sinful practices in this day, when we are witnessing the frightening evidence of permissiveness leading to sexual immorality.

Members of the Church guilty of being parties to the sin of abortion must be subjected to the disciplinary action of the councils of the Church as circumstances warrant. In dealing with this serious matter, it would be well to keep in mind the word of the Lord stated in the 59th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 6, “Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” [D&C 59:6]

As to the amenability of the sin of abortion to the laws of repentance and forgiveness, we quote the following statement made by President David O. McKay and his counselors, Stephen L Richards and J. Reuben Clark, Jr., which continues to represent the attitude and position of the Church:

“As the matter stands today, no definite statement has been made by the Lord one way or another regarding the crime of abortion. So far as is known, he has not listed it alongside the crime of the unpardonable sin and shedding of innocent human blood. That he has not done so would suggest that it is not in that class of crime and therefore that it will be amenable to the laws of repentance and forgiveness.”

This quoted statement, however, should not, in any sense, be construed to minimize the seriousness of this revolting sin.

The First Presidency

Harold B. Lee

N. Eldon Tanner

Marion G. Romney

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Thanks for the reply!

:)

<div class='quotemain'>

As I said above, the issue of abortion is not clearly stated in the Bible. Some Christians do not consider a fetus to have a soul.

The issue of murder is clearly stated in the Bible.

The following is our Church's position on abortion...

No argument here. I already acknowledged that both LDS and Catholics interpret the bible to say abortion=murder.

My own personal opinion is that abortion is immoral in almost all cases where the fetus/embryo has a brain or nervous system. That is non-biblical. I just believe it as a matter of opinion. I just wanted to show you that the bible is not the final authority on abortion.

Now...Kerry is a Catholic. But there is another question. Does Kerry ADVOCATE abortion, or does he merely want to give people freedom to choose? I don't remember him ever recommending it as a form of birth control.

Are you talking about the freedom to choose to murder an unborn child?

I agree with you...in most cases it is freedom to murder an unborn child. And although I consider it immoral, I still wonder if making it illegal will just turn it into a dangerous underground activity. So I am neutral on whether or not it should be made into a law. Kerry might feel the same way. As a Catholic/Christian he is not obligated to legislate punishment of sins (breaking sabbath, contraception, divorce)...and he might believe that making abortion illegal will simply create an underground abortion business (sort of like the way there were illegal night clubs serving alcohol during the prohibition era...and look how easy it is to get marijuana). So you see, making a law that apparantly contradicts Christian beliefs does not necessarily make you a non-Christian. It just means that your approach to dealing with sinners is different.

As I mentioned above, Kerry never stated that he would outlaw divorce or contraception...two things that the Vatican considers sin. If Kerry wanted to outlaw abortion and gay marriage, but keep divorce and contraception legal, would he still be a true catholic? A Christian?

I can't speak on behalf of the Catholic church.

Ok, let's assume Kerry is LDS. If Kerry refused to make a law stating the breaking the Sabbath was illegal, would he still be LDS? If Kerry refused to make alcohol illegal, would he still be LDS? If Kerry refused to make pre-marital sex illegal, would he still be LDS?

What about making it illegal for people to work on Sundays? Your basis for being pro-life is the Bible, which means "Thou shalt not kill" (I assume). In the same books of the Old Testament where this commandment is given, it is clearly stated that breaking the Sabbath is an offense that in punishable by DEATH. So...if it is such an important commandment, why is this great Christian nation of the USA not enforcing it as law? Should we say George W. Bush is not a True Christian, because he never made a law that enforces the Sabbath? The Bible clearly states that the punishment for murder is equal to the punishment for breaking the Sabbath! How can our presidents who claim to be Christian so easily overlook such sin?

You are referring to ancient law, which is no longer practiced ("an eye for an eye").

But isn't it convenient that we keep some of the laws and throw out the rest? We keep the Ten Commandments which were written in the ancient law, but reject all the others. Why?

Did I answer all of your questions? And are these the questions you were referring to?

- Mrs. A

Well, I mentioned some stuff in the post above (yesterday's post) regarding Bush, the Iraq War, and the Vatican...and maybe I wrote some other stuff yesterday that you didn't answer...but thanks for answering today's post.

Sorry if I sounded like I was telling you that you had to answer those questions, but I just felt like I wrote that long post for nothing.

Of course you don't have to answer anything. You are free to answer whatever you want to answer.

:)

[Snow]

Are you talking about the freedom to choose to murder an unborn child?

Obviously you don't understand the meaning of the word "murder." Murder is illegal. Abortion is not. Two seperate deals.

Okay - okay, you probably know that murder is illegal but are just distorting it's use to make your point.

Here's my advice to you. Presenting your position honestly, without distortion and hyperbole, makes you look more credible. Presenting one's position by twisting definitions and facts makes one look foolish.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Obviously you don't understand the meaning of the word "murder." Murder is illegal. Abortion is not. Two seperate deals.

Okay - okay, you probably know that murder is illegal but are just distorting it's use to make your point.

Here's my advice to you. Presenting your position honestly, without distortion and hyperbole, makes you look more credible. Presenting one's position by twisting definitions and facts makes one look foolish.

I quoted the First Presidency...very credible.

Obviously you didn't read your own post. The First Presidency statement didn't use the word murder. You are the one that used it so don't pretend that I am disputing the First Presidency.

One an interesting note, it's interesting that the then First Presidency find abortion acceptable in the case of rape. If the sin in abortion is that you are taking an innocent life, how does that justify abortion in the case of rape. Rape is not the fault of the fetus.

They must have a reason beyond just taking an innocent life to condone it in such cases.

[Aristotle]

"Members of the Church guilty of being parties to the sin of abortion must be subjected to the disciplinary action of the councils of the Church as circumstances warrant. In dealing with this serious matter, it would be well to keep in mind the word of the Lord stated in the 59th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 6, “Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” [D&C 59:6]"

[Outshined]

That's right; unless I'm terribly mistaken the LDS Church views abortion as acceptable in the case of rape, incest, and if either the mother or child can not survive the pregnancy.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Obviously you didn't read your own post. The First Presidency statement didn't use the word murder. You are the one that used it so don't pretend that I am disputing the First Presidency.

The First Presidency used the word "kill" ("nor do anything like unto it"):

"Members of the Church guilty of being parties to the sin of abortion must be subjected to the disciplinary action of the councils of the Church as circumstances warrant. In dealing with this serious matter, it would be well to keep in mind the word of the Lord stated in the 59th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 6, “Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” [D&C 59:6]"

That's right. They use the word kill. You then twisted what they said by using the word murder. Murder is unlawful killing. You either don't understand the definition of the word murder or you are deliberately distorting their message by claiming it is murder, which it is not.

It's a typical techniques of extremists who don't prize honesty, all they care about is stating their position and will resort to any trick or distortion to manuipulate others into believing them.

[Aristotle]

"...[the] Lord stated in the 59th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 6, “Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” [D&C 59:6]"

[Guest Unorthodox]

<div class='quotemain'>

That's right. They use the word kill. You then twisted what they said by using the word murder. Murder is unlawful killing. You either don't understand the definition of the word murder or you are deliberately distorting their message by claiming it is murder, which it is not.

"...[the] Lord stated in the 59th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 6, “Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” [D&C 59:6]"

This would seem to include Divorce, for it is like unto committing adultry.

It would also include execution and war, for they are like unto killing.

Right?

[Outshined]

That's right. They use the word kill. You then twisted what they said by using the word murder. Murder is unlawful killing. You either don't understand the definition of the word murder or you are deliberately distorting their message by claiming it is murder, which it is not.

Yes, abortion under the right circumstances is not seen as a sin by the Church.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Don't most LDS and other Christians consider "Thou shalt not kill" to be a poor translation...and that the actual translation should be "Thou shalt not murder"...which explains why war and execution (which are not legal murder) is justified (and even encouraged) among the Judeo-Christian religions?

I thought I heard that somewhere.

[BenRaines]

That would make sense Thou shalt not murder.

[Aristotle]

FREEDOM MORE PRECIOUS THAN PEACE

We are grieved when we see or hear men and women, some of whom even profess membership in the Church, looking with favor upon the pernicious teachings of...Communism. These credulous, misguided persons claim to be advocates of peace, and accuse those who oppose them as advocates of war. They should remember that all of us should ever keep in mind that there are some eternal principles more precious than peace, dearer than life.

Our revolutionary fathers sensed this, and their innermost feelings were expressed in the words of Patrick Henry: "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery."

Free agency, for example, is a divine gift more precious than peace, more to be desired even than life. Any nation, any organized group of individuals that would deprive man of this heritage should be denounced by all liberty-loving persons. (President David O. McKay, CR-10/51:11)

NO PEACE AT ANY PRICE

There are those, however, who act as though they do not believe in eternity or a resurrection. They cower at the thought of nuclear war, and to save their own bodies they would have peace at any price. Yet the best assurance of peace and life is to be strong morally and militarily. But they want life at the sacrifice of principles. Rather than choose liberty or death, they prefer life with slavery. But they overlook a crucial scripture, 'Fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'

The Lord could, I suppose, have avoided the war in Heaven over free agency. All He needed to have done was to have compromised with the Devil--but had he done so he would have ceased to be God.

While it is more difficult to live the truth, such as standing for free agency, some of us may in the not too distant future be required to die for the truth. But the best preparation for eternal life is to be prepared at all times to die--fully prepared by a valiant fight for the right.

(re: Prophets, Principles And National Survival)

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

It's a typical techniques of extremists who don't prize honesty, all they care about is stating their position and will resort to any trick or distortion to manuipulate others into believing them.

Are you referring to yourself?

No Ari and you bloody well know it, so why play dumb? You are the one that said murder implying, falsely, that abortion was illegal.

Frankly your childish little games wear thin. Post like an intelligent adult or go molest someone else.

[Aristotle]

First Presidency Message

Marion G. Romney, “America’s Promise,” Ensign, Sept. 1979, 3

Second Counselor in the First Presidency

I...[warn] against the ongoing anti-Christ trend in America today.

Some years ago reference was made on a local editorial page to “a super-duper, eager-beaver atheist” who “does not like Christianity” at all, “and is out to destroy it. … In a national magazine [this atheist] is quoted as thundering from her ‘pulpit’ ‘Churches are leeches. …’

“Now that she has moved on prayer and Bible reading in U.S. public schools,” the editorial continues, “her next targets, it appears, are tax-exemptions for churches, ousting chaplains from the armed services and omission of ‘God’ in courtroom oaths, on money and in the pledge of allegiance.” (Norman Vincent Peale, Deseret News and Telegram, 3 July 1964.)

An article in a recent magazine advanced and argued the thesis that America is no longer “the Christian land of the Pilgrims.”

In distinguishing communism from the United Order, President David O. McKay said that communism is Satan’s counterfeit for the gospel plan, and that it is an avowed enemy of the God of the land. Communism is the greatest anti-Christ power in the world today and therefore the greatest menace not only to our peace but to our preservation as a free people. By the extent to which we tolerate it, accommodate ourselves to it, permit ourselves to be encircled by its tentacles and drawn to it, to that extent we forfeit the protection of the God of this land.

Relying on that part of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” the United States Supreme Court has ruled against Bible reading and prayer in public schools. By so doing, said President David O. McKay, “the Supreme Court of the United States severs the connecting cord between the public schools of the United States and the source of divine intelligence, the Creator himself,” who, of course, is the God of this land (Relief Society Magazine, Dec. 1962, p. 878).

Now, of course, we all believe and wholeheartedly support the separation of church and state; but we must not let this wresting of the First Amendment, nor communism, nor atheism, nor any other anti-Christ influence, weaken our conviction that Jesus Christ is the God of this land nor diminish our determination to obey his laws. On such conviction and such obedience hang all our hopes...

[Snow]

If you got nutt'n to say, you don't have to say anything. And por favor, spare us the endless quotes.

[Aristotle]

Edited by Aristotle