Question about Satan/Devil

[Dravin]

You sound like Snow's handler. I was hoping for an answer from Snow himself.

I'm still hoping for one.

He'll probably be around. What? You think he'll see my post and be intimidated out of speaking his own mind? Come now, Snow is made of sterner stuff than that. I've just had a fair amount of luck understanding Snow's position compared to your average poster so I decided I'd chime in, we'll see how my luck is this time when Snow stops by and responds.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Dravin

[Matthew0059]

He'll probably be around. What? You think he'll see my post and be intimidated out of speaking his own mind? Come now, Snow is made of sterner stuff than that. I've just had a fair amount of luck understanding Snow's position compared to your average poster so I decided I'd chime in.

I appreciate it. I didn't think Snow wouldn't respond when he sees the post- I was somewhat surprised by your reply. I guess I'm not used to that kind of thing.

[crazypotato]

I find it insulting to leap to the conclusion that faith is just dogma that has been shoved into our brains by our mothers. Or, I guess insulting isn't the word. . .extremely skeptical of other's testimonies to the point of not even sounding like a believing member of any church.

But I do like the anecdotes about Jack Benny and Lucille Ball. I have been around people who hallucinated celebrities visiting them and talking to them. Fun memories. Hallucinations included Michael Jackson, Batman, and TV newscasters. However, when given psychotropic meds, the hallucinations go away. By the way, the hallucinations never made any sense - just pure nonsense or anxiety inducing. Oh, and I was not the one hallucinating, or WAS I?????

Maybe all of you are hallucinating right now, and there is no computer keyboard under your fingers, no computer screen. Maybe you don't even exist? This is turning into Philosophy 101 - a deteriorated discussion as a lot of these posts go, into ridiculous back and forth that I have been guilty of myself. Or was I? Is any of this even happening?

[Snow]

Just curious-

Do you think that Joseph Smith or Thomas S. Monson or the other prophets "KNOW" (or "KNEW")?

yes but that doesn't mean that each and every prophet / seer / revelator "knows." From having spoken with one's biographer, I understand that he was troubled that he lacked convincing faith and finally decided on a intellectual basis that he was simply going to believe, despite the lack of confirming inspiration.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Snow

[rameumptom]

Please give a real example of this. What truth did the devil mix with what truth and specifically, how did he do it?

Well, there is no scientific proof. And since that seems to be the only proof you are wanting here (no dogma), then I guess there really is no example of this that would be acceptable to you.

However, for those who do believe in LDS dogma and scripture, we see in the New Testament where Satan tempted Christ three times. Each time with a deceptive agenda that was intent on destroying Jesus as Christ.

Moses 5 we read, " 13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish."

In the same chapter, Satan tells Cain to make an offering to God, knowing Cain would do it for the wrong reason and be rejected.

Speaking of the lost 116 pages, D&C 10 warns, " 10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands....20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that Satan has great hold upon their hearts; he stirreth them up to iniquity against that which is good"

1 Nephi 22 tells us: " 15 For behold, saith the prophet, the time cometh speedily that Satan shall have no more power over the hearts of the children of men" suggesting that Satan can have power over people's hearts if they sin.

Helaman 16 confirms this: "22 And many more things did the people imagine up in their hearts, which were foolish and vain; and they were much disturbed, for Satan did stir them up to do iniquity continually; yea, he did go about spreading rumors and contentions upon all the face of the land, that he might harden the hearts of the people against that which was good and against that which should come. 23 And notwithstanding the signs and the wonders which were wrought among the people of the Lord, and the many miracles which they did, Satan did get great hold upon the hearts of the people upon all the face of the land."

And it seems that modern apostles also believe in Satan:

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“Cast Not Away Therefore Your Confidence” Jeffrey R. Holland

Unfortunately we must not think Satan is defeated with that first strong breakthrough which so dramatically brought the light and moved us forward. He has just seen the real thing, and by comparison this sort of performance is pretty dismal. “Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou?

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > March 2000

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Gifts of the Spirit for Hard Times Henry B. Eyring

But the true prophets also saw that in the last days Satan would rage. But you will need that influence consistently if you are not to be overcome or deceived.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > June 2007

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Strange Creeds of Christendom LeGrand Richards

By taking a little truth and mixing it with a lot of error to deceive the hearts of the people. See Isa. 14:16.) That is what Jesus came to tell us, that “their creeds were an abomination in his sight” because Satan has deceived the nations.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > January 1973

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Be Not Deceived Dallin H. Oaks

Modern revelation declares that “Satan hath sought to deceive you, that he might overthrow you” (see D&C 50:2–3). Satan also seeks to deceive us about right and wrong and persuade us that there is no such thing as sin.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > November 2004

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A Pattern in All Things Marvin J. Ashton

Satan and his advocates will constantly try to deceive and entice us into following their patterns. Be not deceived by the lures of Satan.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > November 1990

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The Forces That Will Save Us James E. Faust

As Paul said to the Corinthians, “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”8 Some of Satan’s most appealing lines are “Everyone does it”; “If it doesn’t hurt anybody else, it’s all right”; “If you feel all right about it, it’s OK”; or “It’s the ‘in’ thing to do.” These subtle entreaties make Satan the great imitator, the master ... The power to resist Satan may be stronger than we realize.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > January 2007

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The Power of the Word Ezra Taft Benson

Satan is waging war against the members of the Church who have testimonies and are trying to keep the commandments. Some are fulfilling John’s prophecy that in the war with Satan, some Saints would be overcome.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > May 1986

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Examples of Righteousness Thomas S. Monson

Do not be deceived; behind that facade is heartache, unhappiness, and pain. To the sophistry of Satan, Jesus turned His back.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > May 2008

So you may not believe my witness of my experiences, but they are indirectly supported by others, including apostles, who have had similar experiences. As for whether people of other religions can have spiritual/angelic experiences, yes they can if they are worthy of the experience. It is based on faith, as I tried to explain before by quoting the Book of Mormon.

Snow, I think you are just on the wrong list. There are forums for LDS scientists, etc. (I'm on a few), where scientific evidence is rigorously sought on topics. But this is a faith forum. Rejecting someone's personal witness or the scripture as unfounded dogma really doesn't belong here. I've given scriptural, and now modern prophetic evidence. I know it probably is meaningless to you, as you've scoffed at it in the past. But I'm not here to go by your standard. Neither is anyone else. You are welcome to a skeptical, scientific standard of your own. Please don't impose it on others, especially on a list that is not yours, nor in a thread that you didn't begin.

Science is just one of many accepted realms of knowledge. Esteemed universities teach much more than evolution and astronomy. And the considerations given by scholars in other areas are as important as those given in science.

Science can neither prove nor disprove angels, miracles, etc. You are demanding scientific evidence for things you cannot refute with science. Since you are making such a demand, I believe it first falls on you to make a sensible evidence that the issue at hand can be disproven by science (something different that was believed in the Dark Ages does not count as evidence in this instance).

Stop derailing this thread. Give some decent input that is useful to others and will build their faith, or get off the keyboard.