An Understanding Of Apostates

[Ray]

And again, we should report all crimes to the police, no matter who commits the crime.

And btw, if someone does something wrong that is NOT a crime, there is still someone to report it to.

[Guest Unorthodox]

There you go again, inspiring doubt and confusion about God.

No...I am giving you my honest opinion based on my own life experiences.

As I mentioned in my last post, I am trying to show that Cannon gives an incomplete picture of apostacy...that apostates are not all immoral...that apostacy is a legitimate choice for a person to make if they come to the intellectual conclusion the Church is not what it claims to be...even if they are mistaken, their Free Agency makes it a legitimate life choice.

And btw, I know that you are wrong on at least some issues because I thoroughly understand those issues and have received testimony from God concerning them, which is the only way I know Who to believe.

You claim to have had certain experiences of God that I never had. I cannot prove your experiences were false, nor do I want to.

On the other hand, I have had experiences of LIFE, which have led me to believe that the LDS Church is not true (nor is Christianity, Islam, or Judaism for that matter). Yet you insist my experiences are false.

Of course we will disagree on these things.

I can only agree to disagree before this turns into each side saying "I am right because I know my experiences are more true than yours". A pointless debate.

I am not telling you to apostacize. You have the right to believe what you want, and I have no interest in stopping you. Why should I care what Church you attend, when I don't even know you?

I am only trying to help people understand the nature of apostates, and not judge them as harshly as Cannon has done.

[Aristotle]

Hypothetically speaking, if the misconduct was reported to higher authorities, and the leader remained in his position, and the member was ostracized for this information being "leaked" by other sources...what then?

[Ray]

Hypothetically speaking, if the misconduct was reported to higher authorities, and the leader remained in his position, and the member was ostracized for this information being "leaked" by other sources...what then?

Then report that problem too, because it is seriously inappropriate behavior for a priesthood leader to "ostracize" somebody else.

And btw, if you want to be truly righteous, you should get used to the idea of having enemies... with some who will even try to take away your life. The world loves its own, you know.

You claim to have had certain experiences of God that I never had. I cannot prove your experiences were false, nor do I want to.

On the other hand, I have had experiences of LIFE, which have led me to believe that the LDS Church is not true (nor is Christianity, Islam, or Judaism for that matter). Yet you insist my experiences are false.

Of course we will disagree on these things.

You're operating on a false assumption, because the truth is not subjective.

If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is truly the church of Jesus Christ, then it truly is the church of Jesus Christ, because it is the church of Jesus Christ.

But that doesn't make it "your" church, and it doesn't even make it "my" church, unless Jesus Christ shares His church with me, when it would then have become "our" church.

Or in other words, no matter what you think about the church of Jesus Christ, if it IS the church of Jesus Christ, then that is all that there is to it, because you cannot not take the church from Him, or tell Him it is not His church.

Perhaps a fundamental course in logic would help you to understand this problem.

[Aristotle]

Then report that problem too, because it is seriously inappropriate behavior for a leader to "ostracize" somebody else.

And btw, if you want to be truly righteous, you should get used to the idea of haivng enemies... with some who will even try to take away your life.

Thanks, Ray.

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

"If we had the power to count all those who have started out to achieve this great salvation and glory," said President George Q. Cannon in 1895, "we would be astonished at the number that have fallen away. … Many men whom I knew in boyhood in the Church have gone into oblivion. Whole families have disappeared, and their names are no longer numbered among the saints of God. Instead of having a posterity that shall be numbered with the righteous, their children are unknown among us." Cannon knew what he was talking about. Since his conversion to Mormonism more than a half century earlier, he had accumulated many experiences with apostates from the faith.

And yet, despite all the apostates that President Cannon saw, and knew, and understood, he still remained a faithful and strong member of the Church.

Amazing. Isn’t it.

Heh, oh, but as Unorthodox would say to explain it all away, he “desperately WANTED” to believe it... inferring that all of us must too.

Please, people. Give it some more thought.

But Ray, when you objectively look at the facts, you choose to believe in spite of the facts. There is zero evidence that the Book of Mormon is real history. FARMS and FAIR pretend like there's stuff, but they're grasping at air trying to placate the thinkers. The evidence is only present to those who want to see it.

Emperor's Clothes.

Hogwash. I know the Book of Mormon is true because I have read it and received a testimony about it from God. Yet you try to tell me that God has not told me what He has told me, while suggesting that I should listen to other people... which simply shows that you have no faith in God.

Gee whiz Ray. That doesn't mean it's true. It's just true for you. You believe that God told you that the BoM is true. That's fine and sufficient for you.

That's simply not going to do for many of us. I asked God. God told me it was true too. Later on, I disbelieved God told me anything. I believe I created what God said in my head, mind, eyes, and heart.

Could happen to you too Ray. Believe it bro.

[Ray]

Heh, yeah, you'd really like that, wouldn't you, just like Satan would like that too.

Btw, are you a Star Wars fan? I really like the 3rd episode, showing how Evil can be so persuasive.

[Guest Unorthodox]

You're operating on a false assumption, because the truth is not subjective.

If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is truly the church of Jesus Christ, then it truly is the church of Jesus Christ, because it is the church of Jesus Christ.

But that doesn't make it "your" church, and it doesn't even make it "my" church, unless Jesus Christ shares His church with me, when it would then be "our" church.

Or in other words, no matter what you think about the church of Jesus Christ, if it IS the church of Jesus Christ, then that is all that there is to it, because you cannot not take the church from Him, or tell Him it is not His church.

The keyword is "if". "If" the church is true, then you are right and I am wrong.

I agree.

I also agree that the truth is not subjective.

But since I never experienced anything that proved to me that the Church was true (or false), I can only rely on my beliefs. I believe the Church is not true. That is an opinion.

You, on the other hand, claim to KNOW the truth. You are, in effect, saying "I am right because I know my experiences are more true than yours"...which is exactly the sort of pointless debate I said I wanted to avoid.

I don't claim to KNOW the Church is false (though that is my opinion), therefore I have no desire to change your mind. Actually, even if we lived in a hypothetical world where I could KNOW the Church is false, I would respect your right to worship as they chose to.

My only intention is to point out that Cannon's description of an apostate was incomplete, and an unfair characterization of ex-Mormons.

Beyond that, I am not trying to mess with your beliefs or the beliefs of the Church...because Cannon's words are not scripture...just because his name is Cannon doesn't make his words canon

Perhaps a fundamental course in logic would help you to understand this problem.

Like the Philosophy class called "Critical Thinking" that I took in 1995? Yes...that...among other courses has greatly helped me to think logically about problems such as this.

I have really enjoyed the postings in this forum. Shows that people can share how they feel and what they believe without all the name calling we have seen recently. Great forum.

I agree Ben...up until that last comment about how I need a course in logic, everything was quite civil.

As it has now degraded insults, I am abandoning this thread.

[Jason]

Heh, yeah, you'd really like that, wouldn't you, just like Satan would like that too.

Btw, are you a Star Wars fan? I really like the 3rd episode, showing how Evil can be so persuasive.

No Ray. If it works for you, then great.

My point, which is always my point, is that Mormonism is NOT right for EVERYONE. The sooner people realize that, the better.

[Aristotle]

Mormonism may not be for everyone, but it is RIGHT anyway!

[Guest Unorthodox]

Btw, are you a Star Wars fan? I really like the 3rd episode, showing how Evil can be so persuasive.

And only a Sith deals in Absolutes...like saying that you know something absolutely, rather than simply saying that you have strong faith in that which cannot be known.

[BenRaines]

That is the wise thing to do unorthodox. When they revert to name calling move on to another forum or thread. Thanks

[Guest Unorthodox]

Mormonism may not be for everyone, but it is RIGHT anyway!

I won't argue that you and 12 million other people believe it to be the RIGHT way...and the ONLY RIGHT way.

But one thing that the LDS did get right was the concept of Free Agency, and Article 11 which states:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Of course, LDS claim to "know" that their religon is the BEST religion, but they also admit it is not the only good religion. Free agency.

Again, all I can say is that apostacy is a valid choice for some people if the "dictates of their conscience" has led them there.

That is the wise thing to do unorthodox. When they revert to name calling move on to another forum or thread. Thanks

And I plan to do that as soon as I am finished making my point clear

[Ray]

That is the wise thing to do unorthodox. When they revert to name calling move on to another forum or thread. Thanks

"When" ?

"they" ?

"revert" ?

Who is helping who, here?

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

Btw, are you a Star Wars fan? I really like the 3rd episode, showing how Evil can be so persuasive.

And only a Sith deals in Absolutes...like saying that you know something absolutely, rather than simply saying that you have strong faith in that which cannot be known.

Hey Ray, does this mean that you're actually a Sith Lord instead of a Jedi like me?

[BenRaines]

Let me say it more clearly.

If you feel that someone has decided to use name calling and you would rather not continue the thread that is a good idea.

More politically correct. :)

[Aristotle]

It puzzles me as to why non-LDS would try to convince LDS of their [non-LDS] concept about the Church.

[Guest Unorthodox]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Btw, are you a Star Wars fan? I really like the 3rd episode, showing how Evil can be so persuasive.

And only a Sith deals in Absolutes...like saying that you know something absolutely, rather than simply saying that you have strong faith in that which cannot be known.

Hey Ray, does this mean that you're actually a Sith Lord instead of a Jedi like me?

This might be going off topic, but here is a bit more Jedi philosophy:

YODA: Premonitions . . . premonitions . . . Hmmmm . . . these visions you have . . .

ANAKIN: They are of pain, suffering, death . . .

YODA: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?

ANAKIN: Someone . . .

YODA: . . . close to you?

ANAKIN: Yes.

YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

ANAKIN: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

ANAKIN: What must I do, Master Yoda?

YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

...as opposed to this:

PALPATINE: You are fulfilling your destiny, Anakin. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the Force.

ANAKIN: I will do whatever you ask.

PALPATINE: Good.

ANAKIN: Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her. I won't let her die. I want the power to stop death.

PALPATINE: To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

...and compare that to:

"We know that our marriage can last forever. Death can part us from one another only temporarily. Nothing can part us forever except our own disobedience. This knowledge helps us work harder to have a happy, successful marriage."

- Gospel Principles

Fear of loss, the power to cheat death...in Star Wars it leads to the Dark Side of the Force.

In our world, it leads to Christianity.

Careful about comparing Star Wars to the Gospel

[Guest Syble]

Would it really surprise you to know that many people have seen all of the anti-“Mormon” information you have seen while also finding a way to see that the Church is still true and get stronger?

I think that’s the thing I really have trouble understanding about apostates. They think they have found some information which compels them to leave the Church, while other people learn the same things and get stronger… which is why I try to recommend that people read more information from our Lord’s prophets and apostles, who certainly understand all the problems.

It is the spirit of contention and discontent which spreads and destroys. It is the unwillingness to conceed themselves and become one with the membership. They believe they know better. Even if they do, they break the unity and in so doing destroy the spiritual workings within themselves.

If only they could understand this concept. But it takes a humility few can claim. It takes freely giving your will up. Most believe that having their free will and agency means hording it for themselves. But if you understand the scripture about those who lose their lives keep them and those who keep their lives lose them, they would know that the issue of free will/agency is an issue of giving it up to God and His church, not keeping it.

[Jason]

It is the spirit of contention and discontent which spreads and destroys. It is the unwillingness to conceed themselves and become one with the membership. They believe they know better. Even if they do, they break the unity and in so doing destroy the spiritual workings within themselves.

If only they could understand this concept. But it takes a humility few can claim.

Ok. But the Membership is not one with the rest of the world. That's the same reason why Im not a Muslim, Jew, or any other exclusionary faith.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

It is the spirit of contention and discontent which spreads and destroys. It is the unwillingness to conceed themselves and become one with the membership. They believe they know better. Even if they do, they break the unity and in so doing destroy the spiritual workings within themselves.

If only they could understand this concept. But it takes a humility few can claim.

Ok. But the Membership is not one with the rest of the world. That's the same reason why Im not a Muslim, Jew, or any other exclusionary faith.

You bet it is! That is the way it has to be if they are not to become poluted.

[Guest Unorthodox]

It puzzles me as to why non-LDS would try to convince LDS of their [non-LDS] concept about the Church.

Certainly some non-LDS have other motives. Some are evangelical Christians trying to save the LDS. Some are ex-Mormons who are angry with the Church for personal reasons.

But some non-LDS (like myself) must live among LDS relatives, and must listen to their LDS relatives lecture them every day about how they are not living their life correctly according to the Gospel. Therefore, these non-LDS might try to convince their family that everything is going to be ok according to their non-LDS perspective. Message boards are a good place to practice such discussions.

Actually I don't bother trying to convince LDS people that they are wrong.

I am simply trying to present new ideas.

In this thread, I am just presenting what I consider to be a more complete picture of apostates...a picture that shows that while some might be sinners, others have just thought things through and do not consider the LDS Church to make logical sense. They are following the "dictates of their conscience".

[Aristotle]

The difference between active LDS and inactive LDS is that active LDS have faith that all of the injustices in the world will be rectified in the hereafter. Living by faith, they continue on in the Church, realizing that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth.

In this thread, I am just presenting what I consider to be a more complete picture of apostates...a picture that shows that while some might be sinners, others have just thought things through and do not consider the LDS Church to make logical sense. They are following the "dictates of their conscience".

In the process of thinking things through, many have lost their faith, which is truly sad.

[Guest Syble]

The difference between active LDS and inactive LDS is that active LDS have faith that all of the injustices in the world will be rectified in the hereafter. Living by faith, they continue on in the Church, realizing that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth.

<div class='quotemain'>

In this thread, I am just presenting what I consider to be a more complete picture of apostates...a picture that shows that while some might be sinners, others have just thought things through and do not consider the LDS Church to make logical sense. They are following the "dictates of their conscience".

In the process of thinking things through, many have lost their faith, which is truly sad.

The problem is, if they thought it through with the Spirit, they wouldn't have lost their testimonies. But we all know that if you think through, leaning to your own understanding, you will get lost. Millions have proved this to be true.

[Guest Unorthodox]

The difference between active LDS and inactive LDS is that active LDS have faith that all of the injustices in the world will be rectified in the hereafter. Living by faith, they continue on in the Church, realizing that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth.

We are going way off topic now, but since we seemed to have covered the writings of Cannon thoroughly, I will answer your post B)

I suppose I could post this in the LDS Myth thread: Apostates and Unbelievers are unhappy and without hope.

False.

Active LDS have faith that all of the injustices in the world will be rectified in the hereafter. Living by faith, they continue on in the Church, realizing that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth.

Non-LDS or Inactive/Unbelieving LDS might believe different things...here are some possibilities:

1. Nihilistic: All of the injustices in the world cannot be rectified. Living in unbelief, they accept life as it is, realizing that some things cannot be explained or remedied, hoping that they will find peace in death.

2. Protestant: All of the injustices in the world will be rectified in the hereafter. Without worrying about good works or temple rituals, living by faith in the atonement of Christ alone, they believe everything will be all right. They realize that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth.

3. Non-Christian Theistic Afterlife View: All of the injustices in the world will be rectified in the hereafter, because God is good and all-powerful and good will prevail over evil. Regardless of faith or works, they realize that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth.

4. Taoist View: All of the injustices are a result of imbalance, caused by people not living in accordance with the Tao (The Way). Living on the "path", they realize that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth, but accept them as they are, but do their best to strive to achieve balance in this life.

5. Buddhist View: All of the injustices (suffering) in the world are a result of human desires. Letting go of desire, and practicing the Dharma, they believe they can achieve enlightenment (freedom from suffering) in this life, or possibly in a future reincarnation. They realize that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth, and the wheel of Samsara (suffering) will continue to turn.

Inactive LDS/unbelieving LDS/non-LDS are not all without hope or faith that injustices will be rectified. They just see things differently, which may or may not include one of the above belief systems I described above.

:)