An Understanding Of Apostates

[Maureen]

He was baptised last year, or has it been two years ago. I can't remember any more. He abandoned the church ~ according to your definition of apostate.

It's all now starting to make sense. If Syble is so new with her meager 215 posts how would she know Unorthodox's church history?

It appears Syble has taken some typing and sentence formating lessons since she was here as her "other" self.

<div class='quotemain'>

A hit and run kind of person usually appears once and never comes back. I like to check out many topics more than once.

And what's wrong with taking sides if certain posters are not playing fair. If you actually made the effort to be fair and understand other people's point of view Syble you wouldn't be so quick to judge others as your enemy. Do you teach your children that all non-LDS are evil and you must not associated with them - are you from the old school?

You should be checking out your own posts then M. You are more guilty of what you accuse me of than I am, If I am, which I am not.

I am absolutely positive that I have not taught my kids that non-LDS are evil. My kids and my extended family minus the in-laws are all non-LDS. And if you don't believe me, show me how I'm guilty.

M.

(Editing to say that this board is acting up)

[Guest Unorthodox]

He was baptised last year, or has it been two years ago. I can't remember any more. He abandoned the church ~ according to your definition of apostate.

To clarify...I thought that by joining the Church I could learn to believe in it on some level. I realized that I could not.

My wife and I became inactive, though did not technically leave the Church.

Having never believed in the first place, I don't consider myself an apostate. However, if you all think that label fits me, that is fine. The label doesn't mean much to me anyway, since I don't believe in the Church.

I admit I made a mistake in joining the Church in an effort to make my in-laws happy...and would not do it again if I could rewind my life. But what is done is done.

It was the wrong reason to join a religion, and would not recommend that decision to anyone else.

So now you know why I sympathize with so-called apostates.

By the way, as I am now sugar-coating all my posts, and will not be saying anything that will disturb those of you who know the Church is true, in return I would appreciate it if we did not talk about my personal life any more.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

He was baptised last year, or has it been two years ago. I can't remember any more. He abandoned the church ~ according to your definition of apostate.

It's all now starting to make sense. If Syble is so new with her meager 215 posts how would she know Unorthodox's church history?

It appears Syble has taken some typing and sentence formating lessons since she was here as her "other" self.

<div class='quotemain'>

A hit and run kind of person usually appears once and never comes back. I like to check out many topics more than once.

And what's wrong with taking sides if certain posters are not playing fair. If you actually made the effort to be fair and understand other people's point of view Syble you wouldn't be so quick to judge others as your enemy. Do you teach your children that all non-LDS are evil and you must not associated with them - are you from the old school?

You should be checking out your own posts then M. You are more guilty of what you accuse me of than I am, If I am, which I am not.

I am absolutely positive that I have not taught my kids that non-LDS are evil. My kids and my extended family minus the in-laws are all non-LDS. And if you don't believe me, show me how I'm guilty.

M.

(Editing to say that this board is acting up)

So do you believe that this is the only board Taoist has posted?

And you are very clever in your own eyes when it comes to reckoning your own faults. I referred to how you constantly double load the anti-mormon side when you are, according to your holy self-evaluation only leveling the playing field.

The field is usually one on one until you butt in.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Of course this is not the only board I post on, and who said it was?

There are other boards that are much better for my type of posts...though I don't post on them anymore.

FAIR is actually the best for debates.

But I tire of debate. It only seems to irritate those that know the Church is true, and I am giving up that sort of posting.

:)

[Jason]

It appears Syble has taken some typing and sentence formating lessons since she was here as her "other" self.

I think we both have an idea who "syble" is.

So "Syble" how's your book coming? And thank you for not using elipses all the time anymore.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

It appears Syble has taken some typing and sentence formating lessons since she was here as her "other" self.

I think we both have an idea who "syble" is.

So "Syble" how's your book coming? And thank you for not using elipses all the time anymore.

My name was supposed to be an huge hint. It blew by most. LOL I still type with elipses on my favorite boards with close friends.

My book? It is about half done. I have written the entire thing out, but am rewriting and upgrading until I am satisfied. It shouldn't take me more than the rest of this year. LOL I would have been finished sooner had it not be decoded into tiny little squares by my kids.

BTW, Heather and other posters already knew from the week I came back (by invitation). I told them that I didn't care who knew who I was, except that I wanted them not to let Snow know because he gets so excited when he makes the discovery of identities. But now I see Maureen and Jason get just as excited as Snow and no one told them who I was even though I told people they could tell. LOL

[Guest Syble]

Of course this is not the only board I post on, and who said it was?

There are other boards that are much better for my type of posts...though I don't post on them anymore.

FAIR is actually the best for debates.

But I tire of debate. It only seems to irritate those that know the Church is true, and I am giving up that sort of posting.

:)

So what other names do you go by?

[Guest Unorthodox]

<div class='quotemain'>

Of course this is not the only board I post on, and who said it was?

There are other boards that are much better for my type of posts...though I don't post on them anymore.

FAIR is actually the best for debates.

But I tire of debate. It only seems to irritate those that know the Church is true, and I am giving up that sort of posting.

:)

So what other names do you go by?

I was originally "Taoist" at New Order Mormon. That name changed many times before I stopped posting there. I was "Samurai Jack" over at FAIR, but I stopped posting there a few months ago.

I don't post anywhere else currently.

And this is the only name I have on this board.

:)

Honestly, I am really sick of debate and arguments. It is an addiction that I need to overcome.

All that stuff about "sugar-coating" my posts aside...

I just want to say to Ray and Syble...let's put this entire thread behind us.

We both made our points, so lets agree to disagree...on everything.

Fair enough?

[Guest MrsS]

I was not suggesting that Anti materials be distributed by the Church. I was only suggesting that information found at FAIR or FARMS be more widely available in books, magazines, etc. for people who are not proficient in the Internet.

Try this link. http://store.fairlds.org/ It is the FAIR Bookstore.

[Guest Syble]

I was originally "Taoist" at New Order Mormon. That name changed many times before I stopped posting there. I was "Samurai Jack" over at FAIR, but I stopped posting there a few months ago.

I don't post anywhere else currently.

And this is the only name I have on this board.

Honestly, I am really sick of debate and arguments. It is an addiction that I need to overcome.

All that stuff about "sugar-coating" my posts aside...

I just want to say to Ray and Syble...let's put this entire thread behind us.

We both made our points, so lets agree to disagree...on everything.

Fair enough?

:)

Well I am happy to hear you do not want to debate any longer.

[Guest Unorthodox]

<div class='quotemain'>

I was not suggesting that Anti materials be distributed by the Church. I was only suggesting that information found at FAIR or FARMS be more widely available in books, magazines, etc. for people who are not proficient in the Internet.

Try this link. http://store.fairlds.org/ It is the FAIR Bookstore.

Thank you for the link. I appreciate your help :)

Well I am happy to hear you do not want to debate any longer.

Good :)

Now that this is settled, I am going to go make a promise to myself and to this board that I will not post anything that would cause LDS people to question their beliefs...not ever again.

I am now going to make it my personal mission to encourage people to believe in the things they already believe in, no matter what religion they are, as long as they are not hurting anyone or themselves, as per Article of Faith # 11.

[prisonchaplain]

If you’ll go back and read the comments in your first quote, from point #4, you should be able to see that President Cannon was basically saying that we should not look for faults in people, because if that is our focus we will find them, because none of us are perfect and all of us have some faults. Instead, we should look at others, even our priesthood leaders, as fallible people who are prone to making some mistakes, while trying to love and support them.

No religious leader likes to be criticized. It's especially difficult in the church setting, because leaders are too often put on a pedestal. Then, if they make a mistake, well "They weren't hearing from God. Maybe something's wrong with him spiritually. Could he be a false prophet?" When there is an important issue and differences of opinion, a religious organization can become a pressure-cooker environment.

However, I would contend that such issues are even more difficult for Mormons. If the LDS is the only true church, the only holder of the restored gospel, and if the President and the leaders under him are modern-day prophets, well then to criticize the work might seem to criticize God. Rather than bringing up one's alternative view, best to pray that God reveal it directly to the leaders.

The problem in such an environment is that people still have contrary views, but they cannot easily express them. Alternative views get burried, and the temptation to pretend can become pervasive.

[prisonchaplain]

I think that’s the thing I really have trouble understanding about apostates. They think they have found some information which compels them to leave the Church, while other people learn the same things and get stronger… which is why I try to recommend that people read more information from our Lord’s prophets and apostles, who certainly understand all the problems.

The problem with Mormons reading material criticial of their church is that it puts them into a no-win situation.

1. At some point the reading may prove persuasive. THEN WHAT? Leave the church? Leave the friends, the social network, rip assunder the family?

2. So, does one keep reading, hoping to find the weaknesses? Perhaps some who enjoy theological writings will choose this route.

3. Many choose to ignore the early feelings of uncomfortableness. Perhaps read an LDS-response piece (such as those criticizing the accreditation of Walter Martin's degree), and then to say, "Oh well...it must all be nonsense and deception!"

Ultimately it comes back to a string I started months ago: why the intensity and abundance of anti-Mormon material? Either, the LDS Church is true, and the 'attackers' are unrepentent, or mainstream Christianity is true, and the writings are largely a response to the Apostasy claims of Smith against all other Christian churches, and a call for Mormons to return home to Orthodoxy.

Now, I've seen ex-Jehovah's Witnesses and ex-Seventh Day Advents and ex-Catholics who were just as bitter, just as violent towards their former faiths as I have among the ex-mormons. I think it's a tendency among the once faithful to feel cheated by their former faith. It's not unique to Mormonism by any means.

Jason's absolutely right here. I've heard testimonies from former Jehovah's Witnesses, former Satanists, former communists, former atheists, former Baptists (who came into Pentecost), and yes, former Mormons. Sometimes they are quite hard on their former beliefs, but those who come to embrace evangelical Christianity usually testify that what they now have is so much better and truer than what they had before. The whole notion of "convert" implies that this reaction would be the norm.

You still don't seem to be allowing for the fact that many of us remain in the Church because we know for ourselves it is true... despite what other people have or have had to say about it. And until YOU know who to listen to, you will never know who to believe.

We know that we know that we know that what we believe and practice, what we have sensed in our Spirits, what we have been taught, what we have been raised in, what others have died for, is true. I know I'm right, you know you're right--absolutely, 100%, no doubts. And yet, at least one of us is at least partially wrong. And, if Jason or Unorthodox are even partially right, we'd both be wrong. So, rather than telling anyone i know that I'm right, because God has witnessed the truth to my spirit, I simply tell them what I know, and how it has played out in my life. I'll have to let the Holy Ghost do that inward convincing work.

[sgallan]

Sometimes they are quite hard on their former beliefs, but those who come to embrace evangelical Christianity usually testify that what they now have is so much better and truer than what they had before.

I have heard many of these folks say the words of how much better they have it..... but I haven't always seen the actions match the words. And I could point you to a board chock full of athiest/agnostics who berate their evangelical upbringing.

Like anything else..... most tend to find a view which matches their own beliefs and preconceptions. We are all guilty of this.

[prisonchaplain]

Hogwash. I know the Book of Mormon is true because I have read it and received a testimony about it from God. Yet you try to tell me that God has not told me what He has told me, while suggesting that I should listen to other people... which simply shows that you have no faith in God.

It suddenly dawns on me that Christians "give testimony" that Jesus has saved us, has changed our lives, has given us peace, hope, and a greater capacity to love. How do we know? Most converts who are 14+ would say that they heard sermons, did some Bible reading, made an investigatory prayer (Lord, if you're there...), and at some point 'encountered the reality of God and Jesus in their hearts.'

The testimony that God has spoken to our hearts always relates to God, Jesus, and perhaps that my sins are forgiven.

It's interesting that the LDS 'testimony' is that the Book of Mormon is true, that the Church is true, and that the current living President is a prophet. The 'witness of the Spirit' relates to the holy books, to the insitution, and to the human leader.

By the way, in many cases, they do make sense, especially when arguing against the Christian anti-Mormons who say the LDS Church is in conflict with the Bible. I personally don't think the LDS Church is in conflict with the Bible, because the Bible can be interpreted in many ways to support almost any position.

Of course, Unorthodox is right about FAIR and FARM being most useful when comparing/contrasting Mormon theology with mainstream Christian theology. That's what it does. It does not put many researchers to the tast of combating 'secular challenges,' because secularists generally don't challenge theological views.

As to the Bible and its interpretation, no one can deny that there are numerous interpretations over many doctrinal matters. However, some interpretations have more merit than others. So, the "anything can be proven with the Bible" argument is a bit overstated. Furthermore, while there is certainly diverse views on many issues, the vast majority of Christianity agrees on an awful lot. There is enough agreement that we can usually cross denominational lines and call one another brother or sister.

It puzzles me as to why non-LDS would try to convince LDS of their [non-LDS] concept about the Church.

We want you to come over to our church, and bring your tithe with you ]

I am now going to make it my personal mission to encourage people to believe in the things they already believe in, no matter what religion they are, as long as they are not hurting anyone or themselves, as per Article of Faith # 11.

B) That's so mellow, man. I want some of whatever it is you got.

I have heard many of these folks say the words of how much better they have it..... but I haven't always seen the actions match the words. And I could point you to a board chock full of athiest/agnostics who berate their evangelical upbringing. Like anything else..... most tend to find a view which matches their own beliefs and preconceptions. We are all guilty of this.

And Democrats who become Republicans (or vice versa), Rush Limbaugh dittoheads who convert to Air America, and that old-fashioned all time favorited, Brand-X uses who switch to Tide or Jiff or Crest, etc. Yes, conversion usually entails a renunciation of "the old life."

[Aristotle]

Now that this is settled, I am going to go make a promise to myself and to this board that I will not post anything that would cause LDS people to question their beliefs...not ever again.

I am now going to make it my personal mission to encourage people to believe in the things they already believe in, no matter what religion they are, as long as they are not hurting anyone or themselves, as per Article of Faith # 11.

Just for the record...any "anti" stuffs presented here only makes my testimony that the Church is true that much stronger!

We want you to come over to our church, and bring your tithe with you ]

I'd be happy to offer a pot luck dish, but you can't have my tithes. LOL

[sgallan]

Yes, conversion usually entails a renunciation of "the old life."

Now why would I want to renounce my life? Volunteerism, teaching, and lots of activities, seems pretty functional.

[Aristotle]

What about spirituality?

[Aristotle]

I think we both have an idea who "syble" is.

So "Syble" how's your book coming? And thank you for not using elipses all the time anymore.

Hey Jason, remember your post?

Jan 21 2006, 01:22 PM

"You are responsible for causing many problems here at LDSTALK. It's because of you that Please/Peace, a long time member of this board, left. Others here who are long time members stopped visiting because of the contention (which your faith teaches is of the Devil) you personally caused.

You were banned two months ago. And yet, violating the rules of LDSTALK, you have returned under a new name.

You are not setting a good example as a Latter-day Saint.

GO AWAY!"

_________________________________

Wrong again! LOL

[sgallan]

What about spirituality?

I have a version of that. I derive my spirituality from the beauty of nature. The hug of a child. The simple taste of water when I am really thirsty. The rush of a really good work out. The thrill of watching a child I coach or teach do something with what I have taught them. Things like that.

[Guest Syble]

Jason's absolutely right here. I've heard testimonies from former Jehovah's Witnesses, former Satanists, former communists, former atheists, former Baptists (who came into Pentecost), and yes, former Mormons. Sometimes they are quite hard on their former beliefs, but those who come to embrace evangelical Christianity usually testify that what they now have is so much better and truer than what they had before. The whole notion of "convert" implies that this reaction would be the norm.

And most all of our converts testity that what they now have found in Mormonism is so much better and truer than what they had before in any number of churches including evangelical and pentecostal.

The difference is within the person themselves. It is all relative and subjective and only God knows the hearts and minds and previous and present experiences of these people. Only He knows the condition of their spirits before and after and the reasons why.

Some reasons could be they tried harder in their second religion because of their failure in the first. Some might actually be of such a nature as to take offense at some of the Mormon, pencostal or evangelical works and rituals.

Other reasons might include the fact that they really can't commit to something which requires so much sacrifice of self-will and submission to authority. This is one I have found most apostates stumble on.

What about spirituality?

I have a version of that. I derive my spirituality from the beauty of nature. The hug of a child. The simple taste of water when I am really thirsty. The rush of a really good work out. The thrill of watching a child I coach or teach do something with what I have taught them. Things like that.

Yet God created all of these for you and you reject Him. Why not embrace the creator? How would you feel if you gave your daughter everything and she decided you just didn't exist, but insisted you continue to give her everything she enjoyed?

<div class='quotemain'>

I think we both have an idea who "syble" is.

So "Syble" how's your book coming? And thank you for not using elipses all the time anymore.

Hey Jason, remember your post?

Jan 21 2006, 01:22 PM

"You are responsible for causing many problems here at LDSTALK. It's because of you that Please/Peace, a long time member of this board, left. Others here who are long time members stopped visiting because of the contention (which your faith teaches is of the Devil) you personally caused.

You were banned two months ago. And yet, violating the rules of LDSTALK, you have returned under a new name.

You are not setting a good example as a Latter-day Saint.

GO AWAY!"

_________________________________

Wrong again! LOL

Indeedy. I will state here, unequivacably that it wasn't Ari who drove me off from here, it was those treating her so shamefully that made me decide I didn't want to stay.

It was Ari and some others inviting me back that made me decide to try it again.

[Jason]

"Syble",

Im disappointed. You were a nicer person before you met Ari. Clearly she's influenced you for the worse. You're spirit has lowered. That's too bad.

[sgallan]

Im disappointed. You were a nicer person before you met Ari. Clearly she's influenced you for the worse. You're spirit has lowered. That's too bad.

Syble used to be cool? Or at least nice? Wow. That's kind of a bummer she changed.

[Aristotle]

"Syble",

Im disappointed. You were a nicer person before you met Ari. Clearly she's influenced you for the worse. You're spirit has lowered. That's too bad.

You've lost this argument, Jason...time to give it up.

Indeedy. I will state here, unequivacably that it wasn't Ari who drove me off from here, it was those treating her so shamefully that made me decide I didn't want to stay. It was Ari and some others inviting me back that made me decide to try it again.

Thanks, Syble! Welcome back. :)

What about spirituality?

I have a version of that. I derive my spirituality from the beauty of nature. The hug of a child. The simple taste of water when I am really thirsty. The rush of a really good work out. The thrill of watching a child I coach or teach do something with what I have taught them. Things like that.

When I was a 12 step group leader, many could not conceive of the idea of a Heavenly Father; instead they embraced nature as their Higher Power.

Syble used to be cool? Or at least nice? Wow. That's kind of a bummer she changed.

Syble is totally cool! And very nice!! It's kind of a bummer that others can't see it.

[Jason]

Im disappointed. You were a nicer person before you met Ari. Clearly she's influenced you for the worse. You're spirit has lowered. That's too bad.

Syble used to be cool? Or at least nice? Wow. That's kind of a bummer she changed.

Syble (aka Please, Peace, Starsky) used to be a nicer woman. When backed into a rational corner, she would always assert that she had a higher knowledge of things, but other than that, she was normally decent.

When Ari(stotle) came to the board, she became a paranoid, darker person.

I realize that Ari is part of that .05% of America who nobody listens too due to their extreme and irrational beliefs, but she's changed syble for the worse. That's what bugs me the most. She's like one of those cult leaders who destroy other's lives by mere contact.

Originally posted by aristotle

You've lost this argument, Jason...time to give it up.

I'm not a part of this particular argument ari. Why do you always assert victory, when none's to be had?