A Cure for Porn

[slamjet]

...logos, ethos and pathos...

Oh MY! You used those words, all three, in ONE POST! You are my HERO!!!

Now what do those words mean

[Faded]

You think hearing about the downside of the industry for those who CHOOSE to do it should make people give it up. As bad as this sounds they are "reaping the reward" of their choice.

Depends on how far down the rabbit hole you go actually. There is illicit slave trafficing for prostitution and pornography that is extremely prevailent in East Asia, but it can be found to some degree just about anywhere in the world -- including Western Europe and the United States. That represents a sizable chunk of the porn industry world-wide. Is a girl who is sold and forced into repeated sexual encounters against her will culpable and "reaping the rewards for her actions?" I hardly think so.

There are teenage girls that ran away from home, went to Hollywood figuring they'd become a moviestar or model or something glamorous. That is exactly where the porn industry has set up shop and is waiting for them. They end up getting sucked into the industry in order to stay alive with their limited education and job options. Drugs becomes a coping mechanism and then drugs deepens the trap, and pornographers know this, and encourage the drug culture within the industry. As the girls can't afford to maintain their drug addictions working at McDonalds, they stay in the porn industry. With no college education nor support structure to fall back on, their options are extremely limited.

In this case the Porn industry has created the perfect trap for the unwary girls who most certainly did not set out with the intent of becoming a porn star. Many if not most such runaways were fleeing domestic sexual abuse to begin with. Often, they told someone about the sexual abuse at home or at church or at school but nobody believed them. They ended up trapped into the very thing they ran away from by a highly opportunistic industry. And the psychological tendency to repeatedly act out what happened in the cycle of childhood sexual abuse makes them the perfect targets, because they're already pre-programed for the porn industry's needs. The Porn industry could care less that these girls (and boys) are re-experiencing their childhood trauma with each and every sexual encounter. Are these girls and boys completely culpable for their choices? It's a lot less clear cut than you're making it sound.

The fact that "blood-diamonds" have led to worse things than the porn industry is a weak argument. We don't stop prosecuting rapists just because there are murderers out there.

You think hearing about the downside of the industry for those who CHOOSE to do it should make people give it up. As bad as this sounds they are "reaping the reward" of their choice.

Same response as above.

Looking over her OP, sure I'm seeing where she is evoking an emotional response. Seeing as it is her own emotional response of revulsion to the industry, why is that a bad thing? The fact of the matter is that TheActualLiz is telling a firsthand account and her emotional reaction of disgust is part of that story.

Unless you're intending to help her put together a better write up that will have a broader more resounding impact, I don't see where you're going with your critique.

Most of the facts she relates are things we've heard of as generalizations before. The power of this example is that she's a real person telling a real first-hand insider experience. First-hand true stories are always more powerful and effective. It makes it more real and evokes a better response.

[TheActualLiz]

Should the worst be taken care of first? Yes, but in the world of today, we will never be able to end the worst. The scale of the opponent has to be understood.

One day a kind woman was walking down a beautiful beach covered in starfish that had been washed upon the shore. A short way off she saw a small boy frantically throwing the dying starfish back into the sea. The woman was overcome with compassion for the child and did not want him to be disappointed when he failed at his impossible task so she approached him. She leaned down and very gently said "Its OK, you have done your best, but even if you had ten friends helping you it would be impossible to save all these starfish. You should save your strength and go home." The child paused and looked up at the concerned woman's face. He said very sadly "Yes, it would be impossible to save all the starfish on this beach. I know that most of them will die." Then he lifted the dying starfish he had just picked up to the kind woman's face and added "but I can save this one."

[Dravin]

Oh MY! You used those words, all three, in ONE POST! You are my HERO!!!

Now what do those words mean

Logos*: Greek; reason. Basically it covers logical arguments and man made evidence (such as statistics). So an example, "If you get me the game I'll play with it in my room and be quiet. You want some peace and quiet. So buying me the game is the perfect solution."

Pathos: Greek; emotion. Basically you are trying to trigger an emotional response. Think a child whining, "You don't love me!" in response to being told no (they can of course be more subtle and sophisticated than that).

Ethos: Greek; custom/character. Basically your character or reputation. So the kid standing next to the broken vase, "Would I do that?"

* This has another theological definition that I'm not going into.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Dravin

[TheActualLiz]

What accusation? That your post was intended for emotional impact?

Correct. Appeal to pity is a logical fallacy. It was my intention to avoid this as much as possible. Since giving a description of my own emotional reaction was necessary to be accurate I can see how this may have been misinterpreted.

There is nothing inherently wrong with it, most of us tend to blend logos, ethos and pathos into our arguments. Some applications however are more effective for various audiences.

When logical fallacies are the foundations for our arguments then our logic is easily destroyed. If you and I were formally debating the issue and my argument was based on irrelevant appeal then you could easily persuade the audience to your side by using the Fallacist's Fallacy. "Having examined the case from a particular point of view, and found it wanting, it can be tempting to conclude that the point of view is false. This, however, would be to go beyond the evidence." Since the goal in debate is more about convincing the audience then the opponent and the fallacist's fallacy is far less understood than the irrelevant appeal fallacy it is reasonable to be concerned that the audience would fall for the opponent's trap.

I'm not sure what exactly you think it is I don't believe about your post. Are you somehow under the impression that because I think you intentionally shared what you did how you did, to work on the emotions of the audience, that I somehow think the account is false?

I think you think that my OP was an argument. That is not the case. My OP was a part of my personal testimony.

This post, however, is an argument and I would not be offended in the slightest if you tore it to shreds as I do enjoy debate and you seem to be a skilled opponent.

[slamjet]

Logos*: Greek; reason. Basically it covers logical arguments and man made evidence (such as statistics). So an example, "If you get me the game I'll play with it in my room and be quiet. You want some peace and quiet. So buying me the game is the perfect solution."

Pathos: Greek; emotion. Basically you are trying to trigger an emotional response. Think a child whining, "You don't love me!" in response to being told no (they can of course be more subtle and sophisticated than that).

Ethos: Greek; custom/character. Basically your character or reputation. So the kid standing next to the broken vase, "Would I do that?"

* This has another theological definition that I'm not going into.

Dude, I'm working that into my everyday vocabulary. Maybe I'll start to sound a bit more intelligent than I am

I'm so shallow at times.

[Dravin]

Correct. Appeal to pity is a logical fallacy. It was my intention to avoid this as much as possible. Since giving a description of my own emotional reaction was necessary to be accurate I can see how this may have been misinterpreted.

As far as I can see your reasoning boils down to, "See how horrible it is for people in the pornography industry?" That is emotional reasoning (and "see how horrible it is?" can be, generally speaking, extremely effective reasoning), you want your audience to sympathize with your example on an emotional level and think, "How horrible, I don't want anyone to suffer like that."

As far as emotion and logic, one can use emotion to couch a logical argument, indeed some topics are inherently emotive (to present what you did in an emotional neutral way would probably make it sound like a psychology textbook... probably blander and possibly not even possible). And if one chooses to describe war as a horror instead of war being undesirable (though that's still not completely neutral) the choice of one over the other uses emotion to help bring the audience along. The act of couching your argument in terms most favorable to it, such as using emotive language instead of something completely neutral emotionally, is entirely natural.

The thing is rhetoric isn't pure logic, actually I expect a significant number of people if you debated formally with them would write you off just as quickly as if you were making straight appeals to pity in a formal situation. Of course if you can get away with it in a formal debate is kinda moot, this isn't a formal debate, if it was you'd not have typed this:

I bear my testamony before you that what I say is true, that these words run through my mind and will not be stopped until I share them whith anybody who is suffering from pornography addiction. I pray for forgiveness for all involved because you do not know what you do when you support this industry. I beg gor forgiveness for myself and all others who have worked in this industry of their own free will. I pray that those who are being held captive right now will be set free and will be healed.

I say these things to you in the name of Jesus Christ who has saved me.

Could you imagine if you said that as a closing argument in debate club? If it is personal testimony I wouldn't get my dander up about logical fallacies. God told me it's true is an appeal to authority, if fact you can't get much more appeal to authority than that. As members of the LDS Church though we accept such as valid reasoning even though formal logicians may skoff. :)

For the record I have heard testimonies which have turned me off due to the sheer amount of emotion. I could just be weirdly puffed up in the idea of my own logical tendencies and as a result reactive overly negatively to strong emotional displays in such a context. *shrug*

I think you think that my OP was an argument.

Your OP is an appeal:

Please do not support this industry and the suffering it creates. Please remember that whatever you do to the least of your brothers and sisters you do to our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are making a claim and trying to influence someone. We may not always want to debate claims (in fact you're probably wishing I'd just kept my 'mouth' shut, for sure I doubt the world would be poorer for me doing such), but stating, "I like cheeseburgers, we should go to McDonald's" is an argument though most (and that includes me) don't generally treat them as such. This is of course a tangent (even a tangent of my original tangent which got me into the thread).

My whole point in getting into this thread was to pretty much say that I think you were a little heavy on the emotion, enough so that it could hinder reception (it did my reception). It just came out tainted by school. That assessment is of course subjective, that's why I kept on going on about audience. How and what we say is influenced by who we are talking to, ultimately you aren't trying to change my mind so it's moot, but some folks (and I am included) when close to a situation that we feel very strongly about, such as yourself in this context, sometimes don't notice just how emotionally charged they've presented it as (and those in agreement and also feel strongly about it are also likely to not notice the level of emotion).

So yes, I just stated I am not objectively correct and possibly weird. Mark it on your calendar folks.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Dravin

[Dravin]

Dude, I'm working that into my everyday vocabulary. Maybe I'll start to sound a bit more intelligent than I am

I'm so shallow at times.

I'm shallow too, I get a perverse joy out of saying something is a pathetic appeal. Chances are they read that as a sad, sorry excuse for an appeal as opposed to me basically saying it's an attempt to stir emotions.

[slamjet]

I'm shallow too, I get a perverse joy out of saying something is a pathetic appeal. Chances are they read that as a sad, sorry excuse for an appeal as opposed to me basically saying it's an attempt to stir emotions.

Wow, what I got out of that is people think you're pathetic and you enjoy it

[Dravin]

Wow, what I got out of that is people think you're pathetic and you enjoy it

Isn't that everyone's goal in life? To inspire emotions in others.

Edit: Liz, if you want me to just shut up (or drop it if you don't feel like telling me to shut up) just tell me to. I've already made my original 'point' and wandered off into tangent territory a long time ago.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Dravin

[TheActualLiz]

Isn't that everyone's goal in life? To inspire emotions in others.

Edit: Liz, if you want me to just shut up (or drop it if you don't feel like telling me to shut up) just tell me to. I've already made my original 'point' and wandered off into tangent territory a long time ago.

Dravin,

Actually I am rather enjoying this. I have not had a good chance to debate a worthy opponent in quite some time and it has helped to rekindle a certain spark from my old days debating teachers in school!

I do think that we have both made our points and made them rather well. I especially like the point you made with this statement:

As far as emotion and logic, one can use emotion to couch a logical argument, indeed some topics are inherently emotive (to present what you did in an emotional neutral way would probably make it sound like a psychology textbook... probably blander and possibly not even possible). And if one chooses to describe war as a horror instead of war being undesirable (though that's still not completely neutral) the choice of one over the other uses emotion to help bring the audience along. The act of couching your argument in terms most favorable to it, such as using emotive language instead of something completely neutral emotionally, is entirely natural.

You have a very good point here and I think I have to concede my claim that Appeal To Emotion is always incorrect. Good Job!

I also think that your constructive criticism has been useful to me when you made this point:

If it is personal testimony I wouldn't get my dander up about logical fallacies. God told me it's true is an appeal to authority, if fact you can't get much more appeal to authority than that. As members of the LDS Church though we accept such as valid reasoning even though formal logicians may skoff.

I did get my feathers ruffled up a bit and I don't think that is really in the spirit of sharing a testimony. Thank you for the reminder ::hugs::

I do strongly disagree with this one though:

you're probably wishing I'd just kept my 'mouth' shut, for sure I doubt the world would be poorer

I feel as though I have been enriched by this discussion, and I thank you for your participation.

My whole point in getting into this thread was to pretty much say that I think you were a little heavy on the emotion, enough so that it could hinder reception (it did my reception). It just came out tainted by school. That assessment is of course subjective, that's why I kept on going on about audience. How and what we say is influenced by who we are talking to, ultimately you aren't trying to change my mind so it's moot, but some folks (and I am included) when close to a situation that we feel very strongly about, such as yourself in this context, sometimes don't notice just how emotionally charged they've presented it as (and those in agreement and also feel strongly about it are also likely to not notice the level of emotion).

Thank you for clarifying your objectives.

You are correct that emotions can run high when we discuss something we care a lot about and not accurately judge our level of emotional intensity. In addition to that I am an "ENFP" and many on this forum are "INJF".... so a statement that in my world is very toned down and self controlled might come off as being overly emotional in your world... by the same token a statement that is a supportive and helpful suggestion to be used for future reference.... might translate into a direct and harsh personal attack in in my world.

I do not remember off hand if you are in fact an "INFJ" but I am overwhelmed by the sheer number of "INFJ" personality types on this site... especially since its supposed to be only 1% to 3% of the general population... compared to the 6% to 8% of "ENFP" types like me.

I do feel that we have reached a point where debating about porn anymore would be beating a dead horse. so I am probably going to try to avoid posting more on this thread at least for a little while

I would like a chance to debate with you again! Would you like to debate on a different topic in the general discussion forum purely for value? I would be very happy if you accepted since I had almost forgotten how enjoyable intellectual battles can be.

Until next time!

Liz

[Dravin]

I would like a chance to debate with you again! Would you like to debate on a different topic in the general discussion forum purely for value? I would be very happy if you accepted since I had almost forgotten how enjoyable intellectual battles can be.

Until next time!

Liz

Honestly I almost always regret debating, I tend to get dogged and either offend people or get frustrated. I'm not as cool and collected as I may come across. That having been said there are quite a few posters here who enjoy a good debate and some of them, unlike I, have been trained in formal debate, I learned my debating in a more rough and tumble place on the internet and any semblance of logical thought is probably accidental.

So if you post a debate thread (and clearly mark it as such) someone will probably stumble in and engage you. The only trick is picking a good topic, just stay away from politics or religion. :)

[TheActualLiz]

No politics or religion?!?! But those are my two favorite subjects

Don't be too hard on yourself or ashamed of how you learned to debate. I am a "from the streets" debtor as well and this school of training has definable real life merit. I am pretty rough around the edges as well and am extremely out of practice but I tend to learn the best when I just dive in and keep trying until I get it right.

[jayanna]

Liz, I want you to know, that I think for a lot of people you are very right. Most of the men that admittedly use porn that I know of, are definitely under the impression that the girls actually like it. They lie to themselves and say that they like it.

My husband told me of the one and only time he went to a strip club...it was a long time before he joined the church and like a decade before we met..he went out with a group of friends for a bachelor party, and they ended up going to some seedy bar. At first, he was very flattered, and excited to see what a great welcome he got, until he started to notice some things. He noticed that whoever seemed to be giving out the most money was who got the most attention, and that the girls were so desperate for the money (mostly $1 bills) that they were willing to do anything to get it. Then he started to wonder why they were so desperate. Suddenly, instead of being excited, he was sickened, and has never looked back on the experience favorably.

Although, I do also know that there are plenty of men out there that honestly don't care how they treat the girls...or how much they are hurt. I had a friend in jr. high (15) that had been a prostitute in L.A. since the age of 12. Those men just wanted to get the most fun for their money, and didn't care who they hurt in the process.

I don't want to debate about porn either, but I just wanted to say that I support you, Liz, and understand your viewpoint.

[alien2212]

thanks for sharing that