Marrital Issues

[Jazok]

The majority of the time, the husband had a problem long before he met his wife - from age 12 or earlier.

I disagree and believe this is a convenient excuse women tell themselves to alleviate any responsibility on their part.

Whether wives are interested or not, they are typically blamed for their husbands' porn use anyway.

On what planet? Seriously, I rarely hear this.

The inability of Mormon women to understand their husbands needs for intimacy is destroying plenty of marriages, no need to get porn involved by any party (it's all too often the go to excuse for any behavior.)

You also never hear at conference, "Women, get off your butts, look good for your husbands and make them happy in bed."

(It doesn't help that porn is used as a blanket label meaning "anything the speaker disagrees with." Thus I've heard the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition described as porn.)

[Guest mirancs8]

I would be hurt if I knew my wife was obsessed with a certain someone and thought about that person during intimacy, or participated in MB while thinking about them. I didn't think about that until Mirancs8 made her post. For me at least, PA/MB has never been about that, but my wife might not know that. I've never tried to imagine being with someone else during intimacy either, why would you need/want to?

Actually this is an excellent point. The point being that sometimes the husband doesn't realize how his wife feels about it. Sometimes you might come up with your own conclusion as to what her feelings are regarding it, yet you don't know truly how she feels about it at all. Maybe she does think you are fantasizing about another woman when in fact that isn't your motive. I know it hurts to hear but the reality is many women feel great pain when they find out their husband is engaging in such behaviors. It truly makes us feel worthless to our man.

I took particular offense because I have dealt with a wife who has stated repeatedly throughout our marriage that I'm a pervert for having normal sexual desires.

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. But clearly your own situation is different in that you state your desires are normal. We all have healthy sexual desires in marriage. That's a great thing. There is a difference between healthy sexual desires and unhealthy destructive sexual behaviors. The desire, one of which is uncontrollable at times, to view porn or to MB is not so black and white. I wouldn't consider that normally acceptable behavior. His problem isn't one of a normal sexual desire.

PA and MA doesn't start in marriage. Majority of the time it was always a problem. It only came to light after one get's married. Those men have always had the problem but when their problem is discovered during marriage immediately it becomes her fault because she should have solved that problem. It's like long term memory is gone and they only recall the behavior when they got married. It is much easier to blame someone else rather than take the blame for our own behaviors. I give you thumbs up for stepping up and being a man to take the responsibility of your problems.

You don't want to disappoint your HF. Think of him and have the desire in your heart to please him. HE should be your priority. When you make him your priority you will find it easier to stay on the path of righteousness.

And no we're not getting tired of you. This is why we are all here to give each other support and advice

Edited December 4, 2010 by mirancs8

[Jatt]

I appreciate what Jazok has brought into the discussion. I had an interesting thought today. Temple marriage is serious business, and shouldn't be taken lightly. We also know that the number one cause of divorce is sex. I've heard plenty of times that, outside the church, sex is great until you get married, then it seems to just... stop. What the heck?!? From puberty Mormon males struggle with odd urges, and are expected to reign in their passions. We are asked to not participate in sex until marriage, when outside the church, marriage is when sex stops. We wait until marriage hoping that our passions will finally be let loose and find ourselves called perverts because we can't keep our hands off the ONE person we will ever be able to share ourselves with?!? I don't want to endure life with someone that resents my overactive sexual drive, and me resenting my wife for her equally frigid sexual nature. Is it not poisoning to the relationship?

I would like to note that outside the church porn and MB are 'normal.' The hope is that, within the church, the average male can withstand the temptations. I do not think I have an abnormal sex drive, or unrealistic sexual fantasies. According to the church I went about my urges all wrong but I'm not abnormal, and like Jazok I don't appreciate being labeled a pervert, any more than women being labeled a stone cold lover.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Jatt

[Guest mirancs8]

Yes it's a struggle especially within our LDS community with having to keep the LOC and such. Not exactly easy by any measure. Though none of us here know you well enough to know if you sexual desire is a drive issue or a behavioral and/or addiction issue (that's for a professional to determine) there is a reason why you are driven to porn and MB and other men are not. It's something beyond simply she's frigid and you're a wild beast.

There are women who have very high sex drives and there husband rarely if ever desire to have intimacy. But these men have an addiction to porn and/or MB. Both not being equally matched in drive is another issue separate from the porn and MB. Though I can see how one might see it all being the same.

[Dravin]

From puberty Mormon males struggle with odd urges, and are expected to reign in their passions.

And you will forever have to reign* in your passions (all of them). One day you are ideally going to become like your Father in Heaven. He, Father in Heaven, has complete control of his passions. Can you imagine anything more frightening than a God who isn't in control of his passions?

* Reign in here doesn't mean can never express, it means control.

We wait until marriage hoping that our passions will finally be let loose and find ourselves called perverts because we can't keep our hands off the ONE person we will ever be able to share ourselves with?!?

Passions are not let loose at marriage, they find acceptable and godly expression. Alma's advice to "bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love" was not conditional on being single.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Dravin

[Jatt]

And you will forever have to reign in your passions (all of them). One day you are ideally going to become like your Father in Heaven. He, Father in Heaven, has complete control of his passions. Can you imagine anything more frightening than a God who isn't in control of his passions?

Passions are not let loose at marriage, they find acceptable and godly expression. Alma's advice to "bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love" was not conditional on being single.

Except that Mormons are raised being told that sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. Sex is not bad. It is important to use in the right settings, and when we get to the point where sex can be performed and is disregarded as a perverted tendency, then problems arise. Wild passions still must be 'bridled' but you can enjoy sex with your partner and still have it be respectful. My wife has initiated sex 4 times in our 5 year marriage, and simply says no to 90% of any type of affection shown to her and shows zero affection. I admit our marriage hasn't been perfect, and she tells me that it is important for her to feel emotionally ready to have sex. My wife is a perfectionist, has a history of depression that runs in the family, and is never satisfied. She won't play a board game on a beautiful mahogany dinning table that was given to us for free from a grandparent because she "hates the chairs." No matter how hard I work during the day, any free time I spend doing leisure activities is more time I could spend at work, or doing something more productive, when our house is spotless, we have zero debt, we own our own home, and have enough saved to live for a few years if we both lose our jobs and can't find more. She hates her job, but refuses to find a job she enjoys. I tell her I think being happy is more important that the amount of money she makes, but she continues to work a job she complains about every day she comes home.

[Dravin]

Sex is not bad.

No it's not, in fact I used the terms acceptable and godly in reference to such passions inside of marriage.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Dravin

[Jazok]

There are women who have very high sex drives and there husband rarely if ever desire to have intimacy. But these men have an addiction to porn and/or MB. Both not being equally matched in drive is another issue separate from the porn and MB. Though I can see how one might see it all being the same.

I believe you are making a fantastical leap here and many assumptions that simply aren't true. Men and women may have low sex drives for a large number of reasons, one of which is that they simply have a low sex drive (I believe this is the most common and attempts to add pathology to it helps no one, though admitting its true is extremely helpful.) Likewise a high sex drive may be due to many reasons, most commonly that the person simply has a high libido. Nothing more.

I reject the notion of addiction to pornography or masturbation. At best it can be a compulsion and even then with masturbation, it's extremely rare. That aside, labeling it either way doesn't help anyone. Beyond the definition (I was raised in an artistic home by genuinely very activd LDS parents and never saw the human nude as pornographic, whether it be in sculpture, paintings, pictures or real life.) Second there are significant differences between some who occasionally looks at nude pictures, someone who views videos of people having sex for hours every day and someone who spends every waking moment viewing, downloading and storing pornography. (Again, we can substitute alcohol for pornography--there is a difference between someone who drinks a shot of whisky every night and someone who sneaks into the bathroom every few hours to down a fifth.)

To simply cast a finger and accuse someone of being "addicted to" pornography because they look at a nude magazine once is no more helpful than to accuse any woman who doesn't fulfill every sexual demand of their husband as being frigid (which is no more helpful as accusing anyone who drinks any alcohol as being an alcoholic.) While it may be true in some circumstances, even then it rarely actually helps anyone.

Another important point is that stating there is a causative or contributory effect on someone's behavior, doesn't excuse that behavior, but it doesn't let the other people off the hook either and I've found that to be a very pernicious result of the pornography hysteria. It allows one spouse to utterly destroy the other (without even being specific.)

I maintain my point that if you find a spouse who views pornography, you will find other, more serious issues in the relationship that precede or for which the pornography is entirely incidental. (In decades past, "the demon rum" was often used in this manner.) The point being that even if you solve "the porn problem", you really haven't solved anything. You probably made the relationship worse since the man will now see that everything is stacked against him. (This happens a lot in affairs--affairs rarely "just happen"--yes the adulterer is at fault, but the spouse very often contributed to the problem. Perhaps they simply worked long hours or put everything but their spouse first. Again, this DOESN'T excuse the adulterer, but simply castigating him or her doesn't help the marriage any and if a divorce happens [and I'll never understand how it wouldn't] it doesn't really help either person going forward.)

PS. I'll wager that if you polled married, temple recommend holding LDS members, you'd find that a majority masturbate at least occasionally. I believe you'll also find that as long as this doesn't interfere with the intimate marital relationship, most people are fine with this, but prefer a policy of don't ask, don't tell. You'll also find that the majority willingly do things in the privacy of their sexual relationship that are disapproved of by official church statements.

[MorningStar]

I disagree and believe this is a convenient excuse women tell themselves to alleviate any responsibility on their part.

On what planet? Seriously, I rarely hear this.

The inability of Mormon women to understand their husbands needs for intimacy is destroying plenty of marriages, no need to get porn involved by any party (it's all too often the go to excuse for any behavior.)

You also never hear at conference, "Women, get off your butts, look good for your husbands and make them happy in bed."

(It doesn't help that porn is used as a blanket label meaning "anything the speaker disagrees with." Thus I've heard the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition described as porn.)

I know many women whose husbands struggled with PA/MB long before marriage, throughout their teenage years, lied to go on their missions, lied to marry them in the temple, and they thought once they were getting the real thing, they wouldn't need it anymore. But they kept using it even though their wives enjoyed that part of their marriage.

Addicts blame others for their addiction and minimize the problem. That is typical. An alcoholic will say, "Well at least I don't do drugs. That guy does drugs AND he drinks!" You know, just like, "It's not like I look at porn every day - just once a week maybe. I don't look for hours on end. Just 15 minutes a day."

If men blame their wives for their behavior, that's not doing their marriage any favors. That's adding insult to injury. And if they're not blaming them for lack of sex, then they'll find some other reason such as weight gain (even during pregnancy, which you can't avoid).

An addiction is behavior that continues despite negative consequences. If your wife is a complete wreck and on the verge of divorcing you, you lose your temple recommend, etc., and you can't resist the urge to look at porn, you are addicted.

General Authorities have stated over and over that it is an addiction and it is more addictive than heroin. It's absolutely true.

A friend of mine was shot by a co-worker after he caught him viewing it at work. He was his supervisor and he told him they would have to have a discussion about his future at the company. He came back with a gun. That guy was addicted. He risked everything to look at it and his life spiraled out of control.

My friend's husband was surfing in front of their young children (oldest 6) and she caught him when she came home early from women's conference. Then he maxed out their credit card at a strip club. Oh, that must have been her fault? That's right. He wanted her to do things she found painful and kept pushing the issue. I've heard excuses about women not being "adventurous" enough. This guy's idea of adventure was hurting and degrading his wife.

My dear friend who was eager for intimacy was crushed when her second husband had the same problem as her first (who she left because he was getting abusive). She emphasized how important it was that he not have that problem. He didn't feel the need to tell her because he thought it wouldn't be a problem after he got married, but it was even though she never withheld from him. He confessed when some nasty pop-ups happened and she was so upset, she was uncomfortable even changing in front of him for weeks because she thought she was being compared to porn stars. Women have a very hard time getting past the feeling that their husbands are looking at porn because they and their bodies aren't good enough.

I have never heard an alcoholic's wife blamed for her husband's drinking and it blows my mind that porn addicts' wives are blamed for their behavior. A person may not drink every day, but if they drink despite negative consequences, they have a problem. My uncle would go for a while without, but then he would binge drink and get himself in trouble. That should have been enough to scare him away from drinking, but it wasn't.

For a woman to try and stop her husband from looking at porn, that's co-dependency. She might start having a lot more frequent sex with him only to discover the ugly truth. He's still doing it. And I'm not talking about Sports Illustrated or glancing at something he shouldn't. I'm talking about going into a disgusting shop, downloading pictures and hiding them on flashdrives, bags of porn hidden in vehicles, etc. Maybe you weren't at that level, but friends of mine have dealt with it and were lied to their faces even when the evidence was undeniable.

If you visit no-porn.com, go to the section just for addicts. In fact, they have an LDS support thread. Run these comments by them and you will hear lots of stories of men who were exposed to pornography at very young ages, struggling their whole lives to stop.

[MorningStar]

I can understand why people feel like the message has been that sex is bad because there is so much focus on how to resist temptation, but I wish people would give the church more credit for all of the good things it has had to say about it. In fact, it's a commandment to be fruitful and multiply. Unless we were meant to find a really creative way to do that, that's clearly telling us to have sex. With our spouse. :)

Well, Jatt, I don't know you or your wife, but I hope you guys are able to work out your troubles. Some friends of mine were caught in a cycle of, "I'm not going to have sex with you until I feel loved/I'm not going to show you love until you have sex with me." Hard one to get out of.

[sweetiepie]

Question, is ma alone without p completely and utterly wrong at any time when married?

Edited December 4, 2010 by sweetiepie

[Jazok]

Question, is ma alone without p completely and utterly wrong at any time when married?

Absolutely not.

In the best of circumstances, both spouses would know that this happens in general, however rocky marriages are rarely under the best of circumstances.

[Jazok]

Again, I think you are overgeneralizing. The statement that men lied to go on missions may be true for a small minority of men, but is not reflective of them as a whole, even those who have masturbated.

Masturbation is primarily a problem because some people say it is. In reality, it is a natural process of growing up. The vast majority of men and most women have masturbated. This doesn't mean they have a problem with it.

General Authorities have stated over and over that it is an addiction and it is more addictive than heroin. It's absolutely true.

That is unmitigated nonsense. It is hysteria. The general authorities have stated quite a bit of total misinformation about sex, masturbation is no different.

A friend of mine was shot by a co-worker after he caught him viewing it at work.

...

My friend's husband was surfing in front of their young children (oldest 6) and she caught him when she came home early from women's conference. Then he maxed out their credit card at a strip club.

...

I'm talking about going into a disgusting shop, downloading pictures and hiding them on flashdrives, bags of porn hidden in vehicles, etc. Maybe you weren't at that level, but friends of mine have dealt with it and were lied to their faces even when the evidence was undeniable.

Did you not read anything I wrote or attempt to understand it? I stated quite clearly that there are a very, very small minority of men who engage in highly destructive activity. To generalize that all men is absurd and factually incorrect. The vast majority of men who have viewed pornography or masturbated don't go to strip clubs, pay for porn, download megabytes of videos, hide it in their cars or any such nonsense. Same with women.

Finding scary anecdotes proves nothing. I know of bishops, young adults leaders, etc who had affairs--shall we now suggest that if people of the opposite sex interact, they will have an affair?

Using nothing but edge cases is highly useless. In all the anecdotes provided, I can guarantee that pornography was a contributory factor and not a causative one. What you have are personality disorders where there is far more wrong than what is stated. Odds are the male is also drinking, may be gambling, probably has had affairs and/or has used prostitutes. The behavior with pornography is the tip of the proverbial iceberg, but the most obvious one the spouse would notice.

You also misinterpret the notion of accountability for blame. I know several men who began drinking heavier when their marriages went on the rocks. The man was responsible for his own actions, but the drinking itself was only a symptom of the problems, not the problem. This also doesn't mean it's the woman's fault--it means there are marital problems that go far deeper than the symptoms and simply addressing the latter doesn't address those problems.

If spouse finds out their partner (whether husband or wife) is looking at pornography and/or masturbation, jumping to the conclusion of addiction fails to address the problem and it's rarely going to be pornography and/or masturbation (again, if it is, there is going to be whole lot more there; at the very least infidelity.)

[Just_A_Guy]

Question, is ma alone without p completely and utterly wrong at any time when married?

Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose 'norms' are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice. Anyone fettered by this weakness should abandon the practice before he goes on a mission or receives the holy priesthood or goes in the temple for his blessings.

Spencer W. Kimball, "President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality", Ensign, November 1980, 97.

If spouse finds out their partner (whether husband or wife) is looking at pornography and/or masturbation, jumping to the conclusion of addiction fails to address the problem and it's rarely going to be pornography and/or masturbation (again, if it is, there is going to be whole lot more there; at the very least infidelity.)

Erm . . . yes . . . the Church's addiction recovery manual presupposes that a whole host of underlying issues contribute to addiction. More often than not, though, those issues are issues that existed before the marriage.

Look, I'm as big a Dr. Laura fan as you are. Yes, women should take care of their men. (And vice-versa.) But, you know what? I've been through the porn addiction/recovery rigmarole, and it was not my wife's fault. MorningStar knows what he's talking about; his insights pretty much mirror my own and those who discussed their experiences in groups I've attended. It really bugs me to see you trying to nit-pick at his posts. Forgive me for saying so, but the vibe I get from your posts is a) it's not a sin, and b) if it is a sin, it's more than likely the wife's fault.

I hope I'm misinterpreting you, because I find that vibe utterly contemptible. Not only is such an attitude objectively incorrect; but it attacks the guiltless.

So marriage is hard sometimes, and women can be hard to live with. Boo freakin' hoo. You know what? God gave males the priesthood, and in such situations it's incumbent on us to man up and take the heat for what was ultimately our own decision.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Jazok]

President Kimball said a lot of stupid things about chastity, sex within marriage and masturbation including that a girl doesn't have to masturbate becasue she has a period. No, it doesn't make ansy sense, but it's found its way into the church's dreadful booklets on sex.

This also misses the entire point. Are you really proposing that if one spouse doesn't want sex, the other has to remain completely celibate? Are you proposing that a women struggling with learning how to orgasm should just suffer? What about a woman who can only orgasm with oral sex? YOu forbidding that to?

Erm . . . yes . . . the Church's addiction recovery manual presupposes that a whole host of underlying issues contribute to addiction.

I don't see it. All I see is a generic path to repentence manual that has very little to do with addiction. Moreover, to presuppose that looking at pornography and masturbating are addictions in general is completely and provably absurd. (There is compulsive masturbation, but there is almost always childhood sexual abuse at the root.)

Simply making stuff up about sex based on your own biases is not serving members of the church at all. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing any time soon despite the efforts of many LDS scientists, psychologists, therapists and counselors.

Look, I'm as big a Dr. Laura fan as you are. Yes, women should take care of their men... Forgive me for saying so, but the vibe I get from your posts is a) it's not a sin, and b) if it is a sin, it's more than likely the wife's fault.....

...Not only is such an attitude objectively incorrect; but it attacks the guiltless.

So marriage is hard sometimes, and women can be hard to live with. Boo freakin' hoo. You know what? God gave males the priesthood, and in such situations it's incumbent on us to man up and take the heat for what was ultimately our own decision.

Not a fan of Dr. Laura at all, but your assumption of such dovetails your inability to understand what I wrote. I never wrote what you state. There is no vibe there; there is the FACT that marital problems are not the fault of any single person and to pretend they are doesn't do anything to solve the root problem. What I see all too often is a couple having problems. It comes out that one or the other masturbates occasionally and/or looks at pornography occasionally and those entire subsume the entire process. Suddenly accusation of addiction are thrown about. Same thing used to happen with alcohol (and still does to an extent.)

My entire point is that whether either are sins or not are almost entirely besides the point for the vast majority of marriage which are having problems.

Your final statement is simply clueless.

The inability of the hard core mormon crowd to open their vistas and be compassionate rather than judgemental isn't helping anyone. I don't know why I or anyone though asking for advise on this board would actually be productive. Unless, of course, your goal is to be put down, be accused of being a pervert and being told you are scum. So in that; congratulations.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Jazok

[Just_A_Guy]

President Kimball said a lot of stupid things about chastity and masturbation including that a girl doesn't have to masturbate becasue she has a period. No, it doesn't make ansy sense, but it's found its way into the church's dreadful booklets on sex.

Got it. The idea that someone should be able to control his urges to "get it" anytime, anywhere, anyway, with (or without) anyone; is "stupid".

"Makes no sense"? I'd quote Isiaiah about God's ways not being our ways, but I really don't think you care much. Based on this and some other posts, I think you've already figured out what you plan to do, and the justification you intend to offer. So, good luck with that.

This also misses the entire point. Are you really proposing that if one spouse doesn't want sex, the other has to remain completely celibate? Are you proposing that a women struggling with learning how to orgasm should just suffer?

If you've put yourself under covenant to live the law of chastity, defined as having no sexual relations except with your spouse: then, yes.

I don't see it. All I see is a generic path to repentence manual that has very little to do with addiction.

The ARM was developed based on Alcoholics Anonymous' 12-step program. Maybe you should contact AA and warn them that their program has "very little to do with addiction".

Moreover, to presuppose that looking at pornography and masturbating are addictions in general is completely and provably absurd. (There is compulsive masturbation, but there is almost always childhood sexual abuse at the root.)

Modern science is disproving you every day. We're learning more and more about how addiction interplays with the chemistry of the brain, and how porn can trigger some of those same chemical reactions.

Simply making stuff up about sex based on your own biases is not serving members of the church at all. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing any time soon despite the efforts of many LDS scientists, psychologists, therapists and counselors.

Like the ones who wrote this book?

What I see all too often is a couple having problems. It comes out that one or the other masturbates occasionally and/or looks at pornography occasionally and those entire subsume the entire process.

Sure; I acknowledge that that can happen. On the other hand: pornography is a problem per se. "The marriage" is a problem, but not the problem vis a vis pornography. The problem is that at least one party cannot or will not control his sexual desires.

My entire point is that whether either are sins or not are almost entirely besides the point for the vast majority of marriage which are having problems.

These women, by and large, thought they were marrying men who a) could keep it in their pants when the occasion required it, and b) were committed to the standards of the Church. Then, once the marriage contract is signed, suddenly they learn that they were wrong on both counts.

You may think that pulling a bait-and-switch on one's future wife isn't a big deal. I doubt most women in the Church would think similarly.

The inability of the hard core mormon crowd to open their vistas and be compassionate rather than judgemental isn't helping anyone.

Here's the deal, Jazok:

Many of us (myself included) have been there. We've been caught in the same rut, and through the grace of Christ and the support of loved ones we've managed to gain some measure of liberty from it. We see what some of these rationalizers are up to--in another life, some of us made those same arguments ourselves. We're innoculated to them; we know they're BS, and our refusal to buy into them does not constitute lack of compassion.

Lying to you--telling you that you can have intercourse with your own hand, and then use that same hand to greet angelic ministrants en route to your exaltation as you deny the necessity of cleansing that hand through the blood of the Lamb--that would be a lack of compassion.

And yeah, we're not above using some pretty brutal means to a) try to get people to snap out of it, or b) to slam the door on people who attack Church leaders or try to convince third parties that sinful behavior is acceptable.

I don't know why I or anyone though asking for advise on this board would actually be productive.

"Asking for advice" indicates one is prepared to change one's behavior; otherwise it's just "seeking justification".

And no, that's not generally going to be productive. Glad we straightened that one out.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest Seraphim]

I think it's best to close this thread with the opening post now being removed and the direction it has gone.

Seraphim