Literal sense or symbolic sense of the scriptures

[imanuelga]

Wow, you missed the meaning entirely. What happened here is that the Jebusites decided to scare David and his army by an object lesson of sorts. In the ancient Near East, blindness and lameness were considered punishment by a god. What the Jebusites hoped to acheive by placing the blind and lame upon the walls was scaring David's men into believing that the Jebusite god would curse them as he did the blind and lame.

Hello,

your interpretation of the litteral sense may be true but what about the : "Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house." ? Who is in the spiritual ? and why are they called David ennemy's ?

As this post try to explain, there is different level of reading the scripture. And the litteral is with the less interest (in my humble opinion...)

The spiritual is that when we are blind, and lamb (spiritualy) we reject Christ. Of course, he can deliver us ! As it is written :

Jérémie 31:8 *Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Concerning John 3:17: I agree with you and in what the church of LDS explains....

But reading the scripture only in a litteral sense will not help !

Thanks for your message.

Edited March 2, 2011 by imanuelga

[Seminarysnoozer]

Men will be judge depending on or conscience not only our comprehesion. But our conscience depend also of our comprehension

How much do you think morality and being valiant depends on consciousness versus comprehension?

Does 'consciousness' come from the physical wiring of the neurons in your brain or from the influences of your spiritual self?

Your body in this life is a gift, some people are gifted with great intelligence and others a more simple existence but luckily we are not judged on our comprehension but God takes into consideration how much each of us are given and what we have done with what we are given. Where much is given much is expected. Consider the story of the ten talents. If the servant with the 5 talents would have hidden the 5 talents he would have ended up with more than the one that was given one but in the end it would be taken away because he was not profitable. And if the servant with one talent given would have doubled it instead of hiding it he would have received all in the end. Luckily, we are not judged by a certain level of comprehension but the manner in which we deal with what we are given, in other words, what is in our hearts, whether we are faithful servants or not.

If the scriptures drive us to be more faithful and valiant that is all that matters, we do not have to comprehend the exact or historical or literal meaning of them. We have leaders directed by Christ to make sure that they are interpreted correctly, whether we have faith in that system, Christ's church or not is up to you. Comprehension on an individual level is not required.

To say that comprehension is a key part of salvation would be to promote ones own self attained knowledge, to trust in one's own knowledge over Christ. Swedenburg promoted just that, to be self instructed, just like Satan's plan, 'I can do it by myself' ... 'I don't need a God directed church and I don't need a savior', is how I see his teachings.

"“Be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

“Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.” 1 Peter 5:5-6

[imanuelga]

How much do you think morality and being valiant depends on consciousness versus comprehension?

Does 'consciousness' come from the physical wiring of the neurons in your brain or from the influences of your spiritual self?

If I am understanding you, you speak of our consciousness as the LDS church call the light of Christ, that mean the hability of distinguish the good from the bad.

Ok, well... Even if it is not so clear for those who have been instructed wrongly for who have lived in very horrible conditions as child.

When I say that our conscience change and grow also with our understanding, I didn't feel I was blaspheming... For example, somebody who never heard about the word of wisdom of lds... Can he feel guilty because he drink a glass of wine when eating?

But for a LDS Member, his couscience will speak to him differently.

Luckily, we are not judged by a certain level of comprehension but the manner in which we deal with what we are given, in other words, what is in our hearts, whether we are faithful servants or not.

We will be also judge (if we are judge... because may be it will just be us that we will choose where we want to go) by our sincerity to look for the truth. Or if we prefer to stay in error. Why people prefer to stay in error?

If the scriptures drive us to be more faithful and valiant that is all that matters, we do not have to comprehend the exact or historical or literal meaning of them. We have leaders directed by Christ to make sure that they are interpreted correctly, whether we have faith in that system, Christ's church or not is up to you. Comprehension on an individual level is not required.

There is 2 possibilities : they lies or they are blind themself. Because I can tell you that, for example, for Samson they miss the most important of this story, and even more ! They bear false testimony ! And in their ignorance, they judge the Christ ! You can read that the church say of him.. How can inspired men miss that ? And there is so many more !

But I don't want to attack people, just the error.

To say that comprehension is a key part of salvation would be to promote ones own self attained knowledge, to trust in one's own knowledge over Christ. Swedenburg promoted just that, to be self instructed, just like Satan's plan, 'I can do it by myself' ... 'I don't need a God directed church and I don't need a savior', is how I see his teachings.

That is wrong about Swedenborg ! He never said that his comprehension came from himself : That we know don't come from ourself, the spiritual comprehension as for every one who have faith, from God. As I quoted before :

Hebrew 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And also, "To say that comprehension is a key part of salvation would be to promote ones"..., well

Russell T. Osguthorpe General conferance October 2009 answer for me :

"Learning and teaching are not optional activities in the kingdom of God. They are the very means by which the gospel has been restored to the earth and by which we will gain eternal life. They provide the pathway to personal testimony. No one can be “saved in ignorance” (D&C 131:6)."

I feel sad because it looks as I make you feel bad... But I just say what I believe is true and I will continue because I do believe it is right !

Sincerely yours

Edited March 2, 2011 by imanuelga

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I am understanding you, you speak of our consciousness as the LDS church call the light of Christ, that mean the hability of distinguish the good from the bad.

Ok, well... Even if it is not so clear for those who have been instructed wrongly for who have lived in very horrible conditions as child.

When I say that our conscience change and grow also with our understanding, I didn't feel I was blaspheming... For example, somebody who never heard about the word of wisdom of lds... Can he feel guilty because he drink a glass of wine when eating?

But for a LDS Member, his couscience will speak to him differently.

We will be also judge (if we are judge... because may be it will just be us that we will choose where we want to go) by our sincerity to look for the truth. Or if we prefer to stay in error. Why people prefer to stay in error?

There is 2 possibilities : they lies or they are blind themself. Because I can tell you that, for example, for Samson they miss the most important of this story, and even more ! They bear false testimony ! And in their ignorance, they judge the Christ ! You can read that the church say of him.. How can inspired men miss that ? And there is so many more !

But I don't want to attack people, just the error.

That is wrong about Swedenborg ! He never said that his comprehension came from himself : That we know don't come from ourself, the spiritual comprehension as for every one who have faith, from God. As I quoted before :

Hebrew 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And also, "To say that comprehension is a key part of salvation would be to promote ones"..., well

Russell T. Osguthorpe General conferance October 2009 answer for me :

"Learning and teaching are not optional activities in the kingdom of God. They are the very means by which the gospel has been restored to the earth and by which we will gain eternal life. They provide the pathway to personal testimony. No one can be “saved in ignorance” (D&C 131:6)."

I feel sad because it looks as I make you feel bad... But I just say what I believe is true and I will continue because I do believe it is right !

Sincerely yours

Ignorance is not the opposite of comprehension. Ignorance in this case means more "unaware" or "uninformed". I can be informed by my leaders without having comprehension. It seems that a lot of people on this forum have that perception, you are not unique in that regard. Of course, if one believes there is no need for inspired leaders, then, yes, you have to do it on your own, which is not the way it was intended to happen. So, in Swendenborg's ideal of no church or inspired leaders, the only way one will obtain enlightenment is on their own and in that case, I suppose, comprehension is necessary.

I can drive a car for example without knowing how the car's engine operates or how to make a car. I can type on this computer without having to know the properties of transistors and electricity. But if there is no one around to make a car or a computer then I would have to fully comprehend those things to be able to first make a car before I can drive it. Luckily, that is not how God's plan works, we learn from each other and we build upon what we learn and the experiences we have.

I never said learning and teaching are not necessary and I agree we can't be saved in ignorance but to say that salvation comes from comprehension is wrong. And it is a wrong pursuit if it takes away from ones pursuit of faith promoting activities. Of course, comprehension leads to further opportunities for testing one's faith but to pursue comprehension without faith in mind is the wrong place to put one's energy. And the perception that one can do it solo becomes enhanced.

For example, when a person tells themselves, "I can't believe in that without fully understanding that topic" then their right eye becomes obscured. Believe first, have faith first and then understanding may or may not come in this life, ... it really doesn't matter if it comes in this life or later.

The light of Christ is one's ability to listen to spiritual influences over carnal. If the experiences of this life lead to one listening to carnal influences more than spiritual then the light of Christ dissipates. Sometimes the "thorn in the flesh" allows us to turn to spiritual influences more, as it did with Peter. It is up to each person to turn their experiences into spiritual promoting events or to succumb to the world and let carnal influences win out. The spirit and the body are the two poles of the spectrum, where one is at any one point in time in terms of their ability to listen to spiritual influences over carnal is what the Light of Christ represents.

[volgadon]

Hello,

your interpretation of the litteral sense may be true but what about the : "Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house."

A folk saying. The Bible does contain those.

? Who is in the spiritual ?

In the spiritual what?

and why are they called David ennemy's ?

Because they are inhabitants of the city state David was fighting against. No deep mystery here.

As this post try to explain, there is different level of reading the scripture. And the litteral is with the less interest (in my humble opinion...)

Yes, there are different levels, however, once one departs from the literal sense, then any interpretation can be read in.

The spiritual is that when we are blind, and lamb (spiritualy) we reject Christ. Of course, he can deliver us ! As it is written :

Jérémie 31:8 *Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Let us assume that the allegory in here is what you are presenting, where is there anything about Christ delivering us?

Concerning John 3:17: I agree with you and in what the church of LDS explains....

Please explain why a verse with a literal and figurative and mystical meaning which has nothing whatsoever to do with mere intellectual comprehension, but has everything to do with an intimate relationship and even unio mystica should be read the way you do.

But reading the scripture only in a litteral sense will not help !

Thanks for your message.

You haven't explained why I should accept YOUR allegorical reading.

[volgadon]

Is It not amazing how David (the lord) seems to reject the blind and the lame?

Would you take it literally?

Is it true literally?

Yes, I would take it literally, and yes, it is true, literally. This is a classic example of how not knowing (indeed, disregarding) the original cultural and historical contexts leads to artificial interpretations.

[imanuelga]

Yes, I would take it literally, and yes, it is true, literally. This is a classic example of how not knowing (indeed, disregarding) the original cultural and historical contexts leads to artificial interpretations.

Ok, it is true "litteraly", but what is the lesson for us? what does it teach to us if you take just this scriputure in this sense ?

Do you believe that the lord (David is a representation of the Lord, LDS church admit it) hates really the blind(physicaly) and the lame?

I don't believe so and that is why I said It wasn't true litteraly (in fact half spiritualy half litteraly if you want)

Again, what is the spiritual lesson there is in this scripture? What did the profets want us to understand?

That David don't like them? litteraly?

you asked me also why you should believe my view?

Well you don't have to !

One reason, the word is "hidden", I believe, is so that those who want to believe in a spiritual sense can and those who don't can also.

So, if you find instructive for your knowledge of God to believe that David don't like the the blind and the lame, it is fine with me.

Personaly, I prefer to understand that when we are blind and lame (spiritualy) we can reject the Christ. But one day the lord will Cure and he also will bring them :,

Jérémie 31:8 *Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Edited March 3, 2011 by imanuelga

[imanuelga]

Please explain why a verse with a literal and figurative and mystical meaning which has nothing whatsoever to do with mere intellectual comprehension, but has everything to do with an intimate relationship and even unio mystica should be read the way you do.

The eternal life is to know God and Jesus Intimely as you say.

No more than that.

But If reading the scripture in a litteral sense, without looking for the real teaching there is in it, I not sure it helps to know God.

What more can I say?

There is of course many way of interpret the scripture, mine or those of Swedenborg are not the only one.

Can I give mine here of some ?

For example Samson ?

Edited March 3, 2011 by imanuelga

[volgadon]

The eternal life is to know God and Jesus Intimely as you say.

No more than that.

But If reading the scripture in a litteral sense, without looking for the real teaching there is in it, I not sure it helps to know God.

What more can I say?

Except that this is not a case of my interpreting a scripture on a purely literal level, and you doing so on a more exalted spiritual plane. This is you misinterpreting a word you have torn out of ts philological and culturo-historical context. You aren't sure that forming an intimate relationship with God the Father and Jesus helps to know God?

[imanuelga]

Except that this is not a case of my interpreting a scripture on a purely literal level, and you doing so on a more exalted spiritual plane. This is you misinterpreting a word you have torn out of ts philological and culturo-historical context. You aren't sure that forming an intimate relationship with God the Father and Jesus helps to know God?

In the litteral : knowing somebody is to meat.

Here you catch the simbolic one firstly...

Sorry :-p

of course, I do believe in having a intimate relationship with God !

Edited March 3, 2011 by imanuelga

[volgadon]

Ok, it is true "litteraly", but what is the lesson for us? what does it teach to us if you take just this scriputure in this sense?

First of all, not every episode in Samuel-Kings is mean to have a deep, spiritual lesson for us. A god portion of those four books is a chronicle of the kings of Israel, and focuses on the national and political aspects rather than on the purely spiritual.

Do you believe that the lord (David is a representation of the Lord, LDS church admit it) hates really the blind(physicaly) and the lame?

David is a type and shadow of the Lord in many things, and is used allegorically in later books of scripture to mean the Messiah, but this is not to say that everything that David did is a representation of the Lord, unless you are willing to argue that the Lord approves of adultery and murder in order to conceal a sin.

You have completely ignored my points. David did not hate the blind and lame. David called on people to kill the blind and lame on the Jebusite walls of Jerusalem. Those blind and lame were placed on the walls as a simile curse. The man to attack us will end up like these.

If you are looking for a spiritual message, then when struggling to take Jerusalem (be it your soul or your salvation or whatever else the prize may be) no curse or threat should stop you.

I don't believe so and that is why I said It wasn't true litteraly (in fact half spiritualy half litteraly if you want)

Again, what is the spiritual lesson there is in this scripture? What did the profets want us to understand?

That David don't like them? litteraly?

As I've demonstrated above, it has nothing to do with David disliking the blind and lame. If you keep down this track you will never arrive at the meaning of the text.

you asked me also why you should believe my view?

Well you don't have to !

I know I don't have to. I asked you why I should.

One reason, the word is "hidden", I believe, is so that those who want to believe in a spiritual sense can and those who don't can also.

That doesn't answer my question. Why should I accept your explanations as being the spiritual sense?

So, if you find instructive for your knowledge of God to believe that David don't like the the blind and the lame, it is fine with me.

Do you know what a strawman is?

Personaly, I prefer to understand that when we are blind and lame (spiritualy) we can reject the Christ. But one day the lord will Cure and he also will bring them :,

Jérémie 31:8 *Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Ok, but where in the account of David ordering people to kill the blind and lame do we see any indication of the Lord healing and gathering them?

[volgadon]

Hebrew Bible and ancient versions ... - Google Books see particularly note 68.

[imanuelga]

First of all, not every episode in Samuel-Kings is mean to have a deep, spiritual lesson for us. A god portion of those four books is a chronicle of the kings of Israel, and focuses on the national and political aspects rather than on the purely spiritual.

David is a type and shadow of the Lord in many things, and is used allegorically in later books of scripture to mean the Messiah, but this is not to say that everything that David did is a representation of the Lord, unless you are willing to argue that the Lord approves of adultery and murder in order to conceal a sin.

You have completely ignored my points. David did not hate the blind and lame. David called on people to kill the blind and lame on the Jebusite walls of Jerusalem. Those blind and lame were placed on the walls as a simile curse. The man to attack us will end up like these.

If you are looking for a spiritual message, then when struggling to take Jerusalem (be it your soul or your salvation or whatever else the prize may be) no curse or threat should stop you.

As I've demonstrated above, it has nothing to do with David disliking the blind and lame. If you keep down this track you will never arrive at the meaning of the text.

I know I don't have to. I asked you why I should.

That doesn't answer my question. Why should I accept your explanations as being the spiritual sense?

Do you know what a strawman is?

Ok, but where in the account of David ordering people to kill the blind and lame do we see any indication of the Lord healing and gathering them?

First of all, not every episode in Samuel-Kings is mean to have a deep, spiritual lesson for us. A god portion of those four books is a chronicle of the kings of Israel, and focuses on the national and political aspects rather than on the purely spiritual.

This is your own point of view.

David is a type and shadow of the Lord in many things, and is used allegorically in later books of scripture to mean the Messiah, but this is not to say that everything that David did is a representation of the Lord, unless you are willing to argue that the Lord approves of adultery and murder in order to conceal a sin.

First I don't want to argue. And I don't know every thing. But It may have a sense (may be the temptation... don't know yet)

Remember that it is said in the book of mormon about a symbol of Christ. I am agree with that.

That doesn't answer my question. Why should I accept your explanations as being the spiritual sense?

Well as I explained You don't have to, and may be mine its is not the good one !

But I still prefer mine because the scripture have an interest, and in your case to have faith in the goodness of our heavenly father, but in yours... I don't see...

Do you know what a strawman is?

not yet...

Ok, but where in the account of David ordering people to kill the blind and lame do we see any indication of the Lord healing and gathering them?

2 Samuël 5:8 *And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind, that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

Well it can be can be many way of explain it : But again I am not saying I know every thing ! I just try to explain my believe that there is a symbolic meaning ! And that we can try to find it out ! Because the Lord is willing that !

Well I can give my opinion now (but it is not a definitive one) ok? Because I believe we can grow in knoledge little by little.

Well David is trying to take possession of the country (we , our land), but there is people who's hart and minds are so hard that they will stay his ennemy. This scripture spake of them.

However, for other, who where blind and lame but can be cure !

So in the scripture of Jeremy.

I Hope every one will be in that kind than in the other.

Can we make peace?

[volgadon]

This is your own point of view.

As if what you were saying wasn't your own point of view? Should I dismiss your points so lightly?

First I don't want to argue.

A little language barrier, I think. To argue also means to present a line of reasoning.

And I don't know every thing. But It may have a sense (may be the temptation... don't know yet)

Or it might be a literal account of how we can fall from where we are no matter who we are. It is a cautionary tale. David gave in to temptation, to adultery, and murder. Christ resisted temptation.

Remember that it is said in the book of mormon about a symbol of Christ. I am agree with that.

Yet the BoM doesn't indicate that every Old testament figure or prophecy is a carbon copy of Christ, or that all scriptural examples are positive.

Well as I explained You don't have to, and may be mine its is not the good one !

But I still prefer mine because the scripture have an interest, and in your case to have faith in the goodness of our heavenly father, but in yours... I don't see...

Mine explains what the authors intended, and going on from there we can apply it spiritually to our lives in a more precise manner.

not yet...

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homme_de_paille_(rh%C3%A9torique)

2 Samuël 5:8 *And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind, that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

Well it can be can be many way of explain it : But again I am not saying I know every thing ! I just try to explain my believe that there is a symbolic meaning ! And that we can try to find it out ! Because the Lord is willing that !

Well I can give my opinion now (but it is not a definitive one) ok? Because I believe we can grow in knoledge little by little.

The problem is that you were setting forth your views as definitive.

Well David is trying to take possession of the country (we , our land), but there is people who's hart and minds are so hard that they will stay his ennemy. This scripture spake of them.

However, for other, who where blind and lame but can be cure !

So in the scripture of Jeremy.

Again, you are saying that the blind and lame of Jebus are a spiritual allegory of how Christ will heal us. Using that passage of scripture only, where do we see such?

I Hope every one will be in that kind than in the other.

Naturally.

Can we make peace?

What happened to the sword? =)

Nothing personal, just discussion boards.

[imanuelga]

Do you know what a city represent?

As men, and women represent the truth and good (or false and bad), a city represent a doctrine.

So in 2 Samuël 5:8 *And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind, that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

That meant that the Jerusalem as a Doctrine was defended by blind and lame argument.

men who fight represent this argument also for exemple when Gedeon fight against madianite:

Juges 7:20 *And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.

21 *And they stood every man in his place round about the camp: and all the host ran, and cried, and fled.

22 *And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

As every where in the word, every nation represents something different :

Philistine represent those who wants to apropriate the well (spiritual sources) to their benefits (see Genese 20,21 and 26)

And in Juges, did you notice that a judge is confront to a differant nation ?

I will write a message every day if God consent. Trying as if I was a servant of the Lord to digg a well and find watter :

Genèse 26:32 *And it came to pass the same day, that Isaac's servants came, and told him concerning the well which they had digged, and said unto him, We have found water.

Edited March 8, 2011 by imanuelga

[imanuelga]

Hello,

I felt bad after the exchange with volgadon. I should not have answer so quickly. As I said before my motive are not to destroy the good in any one (even in the LDS church) but just the wrong.

I Had (and I have) a lot to say about Samson, and I miss an opportunity of keep quiet and took the necessary time to complete my answer.

It may look very arrogant to speak as I am doing, saying that the church teaching are not right. But I am not the first and alone to believe that on Samson.

It is easy to find out in the web. Just seach for Samson and Christ and you will have a lot of answer.

I will however give my thoughts of it, but there is so many that it demands time !!!!

The story of Samson teachs us a lot on how the old profets let their teachings.

And trying to read them only in the litteral is missing the complete message !

It is, now, very difficult for me to "accept" that it is not so evident for others !

That is why may be I have been to hard with volgadon even if they are wrong !

So, I promise to give my entire conclusion on Samson soon.

Now you know I am not perfect and this, I am sure, you will agree !!

yours,

[volgadon]

A simple apology would have sufficed, however, if you are to continue with your belligerent attitude and misrepresentation when someone crosses you, I'm not sure there is much point in continuing.

[imanuelga]

As I said, I present a point of view on the Samson’s story. Of course, it is my own interpretation and I will not pretend this is exactly the only and very true one. However, the story has many similarities with the life and the mission of the lord. So numerous in fact and sometimes so “clear” that just confronting them should convince that Samson was a representation of Christ (when I came back from my mission and I study the old testament with the institute in 1993-1994, our teacher and I were convinced). I could have just given them. But I found useful also to give this personal interpretation (and sometime not only personal but from others who also believe that Samson is such a figure) because there is more for me than just these similarities. For example, Samson as Christ (in the parable) was concerned about vineyards and wedding garment… But what those vineyards and garments represent?

Here is what Emmanuel Swedenborg calls the “internal sense” and this is the real sense of the scriptures different from the literal. But I am not saying now that I understand it completely or exactly or that I am now depository of that sense! Because I believe It is God who explain it really (by the spirit of truth or the holy Ghost) to those who look diligently for it. And It is given according of our diligence, humility and active faith that is bound with charity. I consider myself as a student.

So let’s Go!

Judges 13:1 And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years.

Who are the Philistines? As I have already explain, they are descendant of Cham and they really appeared in Geneses 20 and 21 and then in 26. The Philistines stopped the wells digged by Abraham and also strove concerning the wells of water of Isaac Geneses 26:18-20 . What are the wells of water? The lord answered in John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

So what it is meant by the lord delivered Israel into the hand of the Philistines 40 years? That good people can be submits to those kind of people. I think Parisians where of that kind. They always content with the lord, because they have the power among the people and that the lord did show and expose their lies. So he did represent a danger for them and he did try to deliver his people from them. 40 years is, as always, symbolic of a time of preparation, purification. So this is the first analogy between Christ and Samson, Philistines and those who used the word of God for their own (verse 13:5).

Concerning the births, both are announced by an angel : In the case of Samson, it is even one whose name is Marvelous and was consumed : 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Both are miraculous, but there is remarkable difference also : In Judge it is the mother who is commend : Juges 13:4 “ Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing.”

And in Luc 1:15, it John baptist who had to keep this command: “For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb”.

And the attitude of Manoah is quite similar with these of Zacharias, both are scared and doubtful compare Luc 1:12 and Judge 13:22. But the mother of Samson was not and she comforted him. So it seems that the mother of Samson represents here John the Baptist. And that she prepares the path for him as John for the Christ. The fact that as John, she had to abstain from strong drink may be so she could testify.

Judge 13:24-25:”And the woman bares a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him. And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.”

Samson was Nazarite and he should not cut his hair. I will detail more later, but the lord also did give all his life to his father Luc2:49 “wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?”.

Luc 2:40 24 Luc 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Samson also means “Sun” and in John 1: 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men (see also Luc 2:32).

Now, Judges 14:1 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. Thimna means “assign portion”. So here, it may appear curious that Samson wanted to mary a non Israelite woman. And in the literal sense, his parents were trouble because this was not according the law of Moses. But also, the author guides us saying Judge 14:4 “But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.” So still, it was not according the Moses law, it still was according the will of God. Samson is criticized for this, but not in justice in my opinion… Because a law can be broken according to an Higher law as Joseph Smith explained. And for example, the lord ask Abraham to kill Isaac and it was in justice ! Or in the case of Aaron Levitique 10:19 And Aaron said unto Moses, Behold, this day have they offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD; and such things have befallen me: and if I had eaten the sin offering to day, should it have been accepted in the sight of the LORD?

Samson wanted to deliver his nation from Philistine domination but the people looked comfortable with the situation and submit (nobody came to him as in Jephthah story to ask for help). So he had to do it alone and he needed an excuse. So this marriage (covenants ) was a strategic one ! Because, as the philistines were bad, they will inevitably break the covenants so Samson could be justify delivering Israel.

Now in the “internal sense”, but when you realize who really the Philistines are, it is easy to understand that she (the first woman) represents the church of the old testament. In fact, she represents the Jewish church… Samson wanted to marry her as the lord… The lord in the word is the husband (Matthew 9:15, Matthew 25:5-10 , John 3:29.. apocalypse 18:23).

Now what happened to this first church? It is all in Judges 14 and 15 !

By the way, the missions of Samson and of Christ were not understood by their parents:

Judges 14:4 and Luc2:49-51 “49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them”. It had been said that Jesus was subject unto them and Samson not… But, It is not written that Samson disobey ! By the contrary, Samson’s parents went down to Timnah with him judge14:5.

Concerning the lion in vineyards of Timnath : here are 3 scriptures

Esaie 5:7 “For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.”

Hebreux 11:33 “Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions”

1 Pierre 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour”.

Samson defended cares about the vineyard of Timnah (assigned part) as the lord surely does with his vineyard against the devil.

When he came back a second time to marry her, he found honey that he eat and gave to his parents.

The honey is a symbol of spiritual food. For example, the promise land is a land flowing with milk and honey and on Exode 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

From his victory against the lion (devil), he obtains a spiritual food that he shares to his family. But he never told his parent how he had killed a lion with his own hands. Is it not strange for somebody who is describe as arrogant and full of vanity?

Now, at the feast, put forth a riddle unto them, and they accepted the game. Samson here is not only a strong man physically but also intellectually and the winner will obtain 30 garments: “Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness”. And it is written:

Judge 14:1 4 “And they could not in three days expound the riddle. 15 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?” Usully 3 and 7 are number who represent holiness but here it is clear that they represent the contrary because they are violating their agreement and they are cheating… (As Swedenborg explain, in the word, the words can have opposite meanings) So 3 and 7 here represent their state of perversion.

Here some will say that Samson was weak because, he revealed the meaning of the riddle to his wife. So I would like first, to say that if we consider that she represents the old church and that Samson is representing Christ, the words can take an other meaning “Judges 14:17 And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.” This represent the relation of the Lord with (the old) Israel, she lay sore upon him means that he was preoccupied, he worried about her and care.

Also, It is very interesting to notice some other point because there is so much ! The vineyards and the garment are the subject of 2 parables that the lord told to the Parisians (as Samson to the philistines as I have already explained) Matthew 21:33-46 and Matthew 22:1-14 where Jesus was speaking to them. Also it may seem that the philistines gave the right answer but really ? The riddle had a symbolic meaning also ! “Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness”: From the very bad (even from the Devil), God can make Good ! If the Philistine had been in more peaceful mind, they could have understood this riddle as a proposition of peace.

Juges 14:19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.

As they had cheated, Samson gives them what they expected but it was not a reward but a curse. Also with the Lord, as Israel was hard, the lord gives them a representative law. See for example Esaïe 48.

The dress could have been the symbol of purity, but in this case of their state in sin.

It is said after Juges 14:20, “20 But Samson's wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend”.

Who is this companion, whom he had used as his friend (some traduction say whom he was bound) ?

Of course is the Devil, not because they are really friends in the literal sense but because, as there is God, there is also Bad, for one will not exist without the other (see 2Nephi11). And the church of those days commits adultery with others Gods.

Jérémie 3:9 “ And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks”.

Ezéchiel “16:32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary”.

Concerning the anger of Samson (that is criticized), it is often speak of the anger of the lord in the scriptures in the same terms for example:

Exode 4:14” And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart”.

Exode 11:8 “And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger”.

Exode 15:7 “And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble”.

Exode 22:24 “And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless”.

In reality, God never act by anger or by revenge. He always acts by love, because he is true love. But for the bad, it’s look like it is anger, because they perceived this love as anger because they are full of hate. As it is explain in Proverbes 25:21 “If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee”.

The “anger of the lord” is compared with fire because in reality it is his love! But this love shall devour them (because they can’t accept it).

To be continued

[imanuelga]

Concerning Judges 14: 14-17

14 *And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

15 *And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

16 *And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?

17 *And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.

I just found a scripture making the symbolism more clear even :

Number 19:19

19 *And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.

So here it is an evidence of that Samson here represents the one who is pure : The lord Jesus-Christ.

But the philistine did not take benefit of him so that they stay in a state of inimity with God (represented by the anger of Samson)

Romains 8:7 *Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[volgadon]

Concerning Judges 14: 14-17

14 *And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

15 *And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

16 *And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?

17 *And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.

I just found a scripture making the symbolism more clear even :

Number 19:19

19 *And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.

So here it is an evidence of that Samson here represents the one who is pure : The lord Jesus-Christ.

But the philistine did not take benefit of him so that they stay in a state of inimity with God (represented by the anger of Samson)

Romains 8:7 *Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Unfortunately, all your theory has going are the numbers three and seven, and even then they are in a different context.

In Numbers 19 we have procedures for purification. It isn't the numbers three and seven which imply purity. On the third day after contracting impurity, one who is clean sprnkles the unclean with water from a hyssop stalk, and does so again on the seventh day. After which the unclean man immerses himself in living water and becomes clean at evening time.

Where in Samson's story do we find any mention of someone sprinkling with hyssop, or of ritual immersion?

Not only that, but the numbers are wrong too. In Samson's case the Philistines spent three days trying to solve a riddle. Samson's wife nags him for seven days. That brings the total to ten days.

[imanuelga]

Volgodon wrote "In Samson's case the Philistines spent three days trying to solve a riddle. Samson's wife nags him for seven days. That brings the total to ten days."

I do not think so :

Juges 14:12 *And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:

So the feast in totally had 7 days.

And the woman was asking Samson during all those days even before the philistine Threat.

They tried to find out by themself 3 days.. etc ..

I will not believe that this is not a mere coincidence.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Concerning Judges 14: 14-17

14 *And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

15 *And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

16 *And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?

17 *And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.

I just found a scripture making the symbolism more clear even :

Number 19:19

19 *And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.

So here it is an evidence of that Samson here represents the one who is pure : The lord Jesus-Christ.

But the philistine did not take benefit of him so that they stay in a state of inimity with God (represented by the anger of Samson)

Romains 8:7 *Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ha ha,

You shoot down my earlier posts about the battle between spirit and body and then at the end of this post you use that very argument and scripture to support your theories of interpreting older scripture. ??

Why are you trying to come up with theories about the symbolic meaning of older scripture when we have modern revelation to help us understand those things the way they are really supposed to be understood? You seem to accept that as a reasonable way of interpreting scripture as you did in this post above, you used more modern verses in Romans to support your ideas of symbolic meaning in earlier scripture. Why not keep going with that idea and use even more modern versus and statements from those that converse with God to help you understand the true significance of the scriptures?

I can see why you disagreed with me earlier, you are trying to come up with symbolic meanings where I was trying to tell you literal meanings. I think it is more important to understand some of the basic literal meanings of the gospel before it can be applied to the more symbolic verses.

The literal in this case is the literal battle between one's own spirit and one's own body, the spiritual mind and the carnal mind.

Even though I think it is not correct and even sexist, I suppose if you agree to the basic literal teaching as it is in Romans 8, then you could try to apply any symbolic meaning to older and more primitive teachings in the scriptures such as possibly the symbolic meaning of man versus women. It isn't helpful or necessary to do that though, we have modern revelation, you know?

[imanuelga]

Even though I think it is not correct and even sexist, I suppose if you agree to the basic literal teaching as it is in Romans 8, then you could try to apply any symbolic meaning to older and more primitive teachings in the scriptures such as possibly the symbolic meaning of man versus women. It isn't helpful or necessary to do that though, we have modern revelation, you know?

Sorry, I do not understand you. I was just trying to explain that you call "old scriptures" !

And I took this scripture in Roman to explain" the anger of Samson ". But more than a anger against the carnal, It was most against hypocrisy :

Matthew 23:26-39 where we can see the "anger of the lord against the pharisiens (philistins)".

When the Samson (the lord) wanted to have a real union with his wife (the church of Jews), those who should have care of her, have given her to an other . So the Samson, destroy their production (the bad and false).

So Philistins killed the wife (the church) !! And even his father house !!

So The lord destroyed them and retire from them :

8 *And he smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter: and he went down and dwelt in the top of the rock Etam.

This is what happened after the death and resurection of Christ, first the Jews killed the christians (see in act the episode of Etienne) and after they were devasted :

matthew 23:38 *Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 *For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This is what it is meant by :

"and he went down and dwelt in the top of the rock Etam." This mean to be hidden from them.

Now, I am not sure I am doing well in explaining this. I feel that you do not really wants to read that it is not allowed by the leader in the preasthood.

Like Israel in those day, you looks you are not free and under domination.

I do not believe anymore that Church leader understand better than I the "old scriptures".

It is not pride ! By the contrary, I believe we are all equal before God and that he wants to give liberaly to every one.

God do not make differents between his children... But you sumit yourself to some!

Putting your salvation in their hands.

The salvation is a personal relationship ! As you said yourself (or the church !) but there is a differents between that it is said and what it is done !

Soon I will vote "no" in the stake conferance to the sustain of the leaders !

Because

1 - I will no more sustain people who speak falsely against somebody (even a dead man as Samson)

2 - because I am not affraid

3 - because Samson is a model ! :-p

4 - Because It is the only way to may be deliver some from falsity !

For those who wants to know more this is my email :

[email protected]

I will give every thing for free !

In the internet, you can find this :

It is In french :

Promesses - Samson: l'homme de tous les espoirs no. 106

Promesses - Samson: Un mariage stratégique no. 107

Promesses - Samson: Un pays ravagé no. 108

Promesses - Samson: Visites à deux femmes no. 109

Sincerely yours,

Edited March 28, 2011 by imanuelga

[imanuelga]

Why not keep going with that idea and use even more modern versus and statements from those that converse with God to help you understand the true significance of the scriptures?

Here Paul spoke of men of faith, and Samson is mentionned :

Hebrew 11:32 *"And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:"

So Paul has a positive vision of Samson also.

[imanuelga]

I can see why you disagreed with me earlier, you are trying to come up with symbolic meanings where I was trying to tell you literal meanings. I think it is more important to understand some of the basic literal meanings of the gospel before it can be applied to the more symbolic verses.

Really ?

Recently, my children and I were looking "Superman returns" (film). As they are young (8 and 7 years old), they didn't realize how much Superman was very much a representation of Christ (you may say that I see this symbolisme every where :-p). But, I felt something bad... Speaking of the lord or wanted to teach after his coming is not of the same value than speaking of him before his birth ! Because one is a profecy but the other looks like what we call in french "recupération", a kind of "recovery" (I am not sure the traduction will tell much). It is not because somebody say that there is a Christ that he is right in all that he can say. So this is why the lord by "old scriptures" said it "before" as it is written in Esaie :

Esaïe 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 *I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 *To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

8 *I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

9 *Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Esaïe 48:1 *Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

2 *For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

3 *I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

4 *Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5 *I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6 *Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7 *They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

Now, I am faithfull that the lord hide his truth for those who look for him. Because if these truth had not been hiden, they would have been distroyed.

So they are of much value for me !

Edited March 28, 2011 by imanuelga