Why Would Anyone Who Believed In Christ..

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 4 2004, 12:32 AM

By the way, I hope the Pope has flame retardent clothes, I think it'll be mighty funny to see him aflame and rollin around, speakin all that latin with that big funny hat on. HAHAHAA makes me laugh just thinkin about it. What's also funny is the Popes of the past are sittin up in spirit prison, probably among the concorses of angry souls they led astray. That would make a good MadTV/SNL skit.

You are truly a sick individual.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 1 2004, 06:59 PM

Why do people pick on Thomas? Jesus never rebuked Thomas for "doubting." What did the apostles do when Mary Magdelene told them she had seen the Savior resurrected? They didn't believe her. They all doubted. When Jesus did appear to the apostles (Thomas was the only one not there, by the way), THEN they believed. Thomas didn't believe them so Jesus came back a week later and showed himself to Thomas. He didn't tell him to "doubt not" until AFTER he had proved himself to Thomas. Then he expounded on the virtue of having faith without seeing first. Some people need some proof before they can have faith.

Isn't it nice that the early apostles had their faith handed to them?

They were able to watch Jesus do all his miracles, watch him die and come back, etc...

Their faith was built entirely on proof...experience...seeing it with their own eyes.

If only I could be given the same break that Thomas was given!

Too bad Christ can't visit this "Doubting Taoist" and give me the proof I need.

Maybe he will...

[Holdyourfire]

No responses?

I've killed the thread. Wow. Is that winning by default?

R.I.P

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Mar 4 2004, 05:15 PM

They were able to watch Jesus do all his miracles, watch him die and come back, etc...

Their faith was built entirely on proof...experience...seeing it with their own eyes.

If only I could be given the same break that Thomas was given!

Too bad Christ can't visit this "Doubting Taoist" and give me the proof I need.

Maybe he will...

Don't be bummed Tao. As the Duckster pointed out on another thread, most of the apostles paid a very high price for their knowledge. I think we have it pretty easy. Be happy!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 5 2004, 04:45 PM

Don't be bummed Tao. As the Duckster pointed out on another thread, most of the apostles paid a very high price for their knowledge. I think we have it pretty easy. Be happy!

I see that now. Actually I wrote the above post before my conversation with The Duck.

I'm perfectly happy being a "Doubting Thomas".

It means I can drink coffee, break the Sabbath, avoid Tithing, etc. without feeling guilty

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Mar 4 2004, 03:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Mar 4 2004, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Mar 4 2004, 12:26 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Holdyourfire@Mar 3 2004, 09:55 PM

HYF: Quoting scriptures like this to me is presuming that I hold them in the same light as you do. I don't. They are not Gods words to me. A casualty of Occam's razor I'm afraid.

I don't believe Jesus was what you believe him to be. We're both coming from very different places so the questions of going against Jesus don't exactly work for me.

Well, we have gotten to the meat of your post. Guess what? The same argument works in reverse! Because we are coming from such differing places, your arguments will have no effect on those of us who faithfully hold to the belief that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God. So, tell me again why you are here?

I think I need to clarify a little more about where I am coming from.

I believe in God, but not an external one.

I believe that I am God in every sense of the word.

That Man in his natural state is not a “God in embryo” as the church implies, but is all knowing and all powerful RIGHT NOW!

That when you are not in your physical body’s temporary, self-imposed limitations -You are GOD. YOU created the universe.

You are here right now because it was Gods Will, meaning your OWN WILL as a God. Your every choice is God’s will/your will. Any experience you have chosen to have here on earth is Gods choice/your choice. Hence –true free will with no asterisks or small print.

Mankind is operating under historical notions that are entirely incorrect. These notions are passed along generation after generation because they exist under the mistaken notion that they come from God, and are his requirements. Once labeled “Gods will”, mankind places an importance and authority on these things that cannot be questioned because it just IS. Almost everyone operates under these incorrect systems. We get them second hand from our parents and from the world.

This is what Jesus was trying to get across to mankind. Jesus was not different than you or me. -And Buddha, too for that matter. They are just humans/Gods who understood their own divine nature. Naturally, they wanted to free man from the incorrect and un-necessary beliefs that stopped them from knowing and operating from their true nature.

That is the PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH that Jesus was trying to show, but it has become so horribly misconstrued by time and religion. Religion is merely what mankind thinks an external God requires of them verses what just is. -“Ye are GODS” already.

Why am I here in LDS chat?

I'm pulling the mask off "the old lone ranger" so to speak.

Well, that is an ........... interesting .............. testimony. And one valid only to you. But thanks for sharing it. (Now, maybe it would be wise to go see a psychiatrist for treatment of your manic/depression. You seem to be in the manic phase right now. )

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Mar 5 2004, 04:48 PM

I'm perfectly happy being a "Doubting Thomas".

It means I can drink coffee, break the Sabbath, avoid Tithing, etc. without feeling guilty

Okay, if that's your choice. I think the scriptures are pretty clear that having faith is a very good thing though...

[Ray]

Even if all of us are God, which in a sense is true, you still need to consider the idea that some of us are totally perfect, some of us are working on becoming perfect, and some of us are so totally satisfied with the way we are that we’re not even trying to become perfect. You do admit that some of us are different than others, don’t you?

So what word do you use to refer to those of us who are totally perfect? What determines whether or not someone is totally perfect? If some of us are totally perfect, so that there is no more room for improvement, wouldn’t those of us who are totally perfect be in total agreement with everyone else who is totally perfect? You can’t have someone who is totally perfect who is in opposition to someone else who is totally perfect, can you? That would mean that one of those persons didn’t see something the right way, and still needed to learn what the other person already knows. Right?

I’ll let you know something. Neither one of us is perfect yet, but someday I hope to be. I hope you’re working on that too. :)

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 5 2004, 05:07 PM

Okay, if that's your choice. I think the scriptures are pretty clear that having faith is a very good thing though...

Well, I have faith in some things.

The most important thing: I have faith that we are saved from our sins.

I just don't have alot of faith that we shouldn't drink coffee, shop on Sundays, or give money to the Church.

[Ray]

Getting God's assurance that you really shouldn't do something that you really want to do can be challenging, because your will is sometimes in opposition to His and you really don't want to know that you shouldn't be doing that something, but if you'll first try to find out if it's okay to do something, before you decide that you're going to do that something, it's a whole lot easier to do only what He assures you that you should be doing. Heh, did you follow that? :)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 5 2004, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 5 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Mar 5 2004, 05:07 PM

Okay, if that's your choice.  I think the scriptures are pretty clear that having faith is a very good thing though...

Well, I have faith in some things.

The most important thing: I have faith that we are saved from our sins.

I just don't have alot of faith that we shouldn't drink coffee, shop on Sundays, or give money to the Church.

I understand. What is doctrine and what is dogma?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 4 2004, 05:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 4 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Mar 1 2004, 06:59 PM

Why do people pick on Thomas?  Jesus never rebuked Thomas for "doubting."  What did the apostles do when Mary Magdelene told them she had seen the Savior resurrected?  They didn't believe her.  They all doubted.  When Jesus did appear to the apostles (Thomas was the only one not there, by the way), THEN they believed.  Thomas didn't believe them so Jesus came back a week later and showed himself to Thomas.  He didn't tell him to "doubt not" until AFTER he had proved himself to Thomas.  Then he expounded on the virtue of having faith without seeing first.  Some people need some proof before they can have faith.

Isn't it nice that the early apostles had their faith handed to them?

They were able to watch Jesus do all his miracles, watch him die and come back, etc...

Their faith was built entirely on proof...experience...seeing it with their own eyes.

If only I could be given the same break that Thomas was given!

Too bad Christ can't visit this "Doubting Taoist" and give me the proof I need.

Maybe he will...

They really didn't have the knowledge ...many didn't even realize who Jesus was...they just felt good about being with him and most of what he taught. It wasn't until the penecost and they received the Holy Ghost...that they really knew.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 5 2004, 04:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 5 2004, 04:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Mar 5 2004, 04:45 PM

Don't be bummed Tao.  As the Duckster pointed out on another thread, most of the apostles paid a very high price for their knowledge.  I think we have it pretty easy.  Be happy!

I see that now. Actually I wrote the above post before my conversation with The Duck.

I'm perfectly happy being a "Doubting Thomas".

It means I can drink coffee, break the Sabbath, avoid Tithing, etc. without feeling guilty

uh huh sure....you feel pleanty of guilt Tao....

And btw...you really want to do all the right things...but you have a fear of commitment.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 5 2004, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 5 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Mar 5 2004, 05:07 PM

Okay, if that's your choice.  I think the scriptures are pretty clear that having faith is a very good thing though...

Well, I have faith in some things.

The most important thing: I have faith that we are saved from our sins.

I just don't have alot of faith that we shouldn't drink coffee, shop on Sundays, or give money to the Church.

Sacrifice....

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 05:54 PM

Well, that is an ........... interesting .............. testimony.  And one valid only to you.  But thanks for sharing it.  (Now, maybe it would be wise to go see a psychiatrist for treatment of your manic/depression.  You seem to be in the manic phase right now.    )

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I probably should have just bolded the things I wanted empahasis on instead speaking in capitals (yelling) I really didn't mean the yelling. Just the emphasis. Oh well, bygones.

I do find the "see a psychiatrist" thing a little ironic coming from a potential future inhabitant of the planet nearest to the star 'Kolob". On which you will share your chosen mate with about a billion sister wives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Touché

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Mar 5 2004, 11:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Mar 5 2004, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 05:54 PM

Well, that is an ........... interesting .............. testimony.  And one valid only to you.  But thanks for sharing it.  (Now, maybe it would be wise to go see a psychiatrist for treatment of your manic/depression.  You seem to be in the manic phase right now.    )

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I probably should have just bolded the things I wanted empahasis on instead speaking in capitals (yelling) I really didn't mean the yelling. Just the emphasis. Oh well, bygones.

I do find the "see a psychiatrist" thing a little ironic coming from a potential future inhabitant of the planet nearest to the star 'Kolob". On which you will share your chosen mate with about a billion sister wives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Touché

Well....you are wrong....LOL

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 6 2004, 12:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 6 2004, 12:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Holdyourfire@Mar 5 2004, 11:22 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 05:54 PM

Well, that is an ........... interesting .............. testimony.  And one valid only to you.  But thanks for sharing it.  (Now, maybe it would be wise to go see a psychiatrist for treatment of your manic/depression.  You seem to be in the manic phase right now.    )

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I probably should have just bolded the things I wanted empahasis on instead speaking in capitals (yelling) I really didn't mean the yelling. Just the emphasis. Oh well, bygones.

I do find the "see a psychiatrist" thing a little ironic coming from a potential future inhabitant of the planet nearest to the star 'Kolob". On which you will share your chosen mate with about a billion sister wives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Touché

Even if you don't believe in our doctrine, I think we can all come to the agreement that there is no doctrine that shed sufficient light on the topic of that which you mock. It has been heavily established that anything beyond doctrine is speculation. So don't try to pervert and distort that which hasn't been clarified by proper revelation.

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 5 2004, 06:10 PM

Even if all of us are God, which in a sense is true, you still need to consider the idea that some of us are totally perfect, some of us are working on becoming perfect, and some of us are so totally satisfied with the way we are that we’re not even trying to become perfect.  You do admit that some of us are different than others, don’t you? 

So what word do you use to refer to those of us who are totally perfect?  What determines whether or not someone is totally perfect?  If some of us are totally perfect, so that there is no more room for improvement, wouldn’t those of us who are totally perfect be in total agreement with everyone else who is totally perfect?  You can’t have someone who is totally perfect who is in opposition to someone else who is totally perfect, can you?  That would mean that one of those persons didn’t see something the right way, and still needed to learn what the other person already knows.  Right?

I’ll let you know something.  Neither one of us is perfect yet, but someday I hope to be.  I hope you’re working on that too.  :)

Bear with me...

Perfection is our first and default state. Most believe the opposite.

We intentionally forget our natural state when we come here (Earth) because it allows us to not know everything. In this way we can re-experience and re-discover that which we can't in an omnipresent existence. Experience can only happen in a 'relative' plane where time and space exist.

Here in my physical body, how long would it take for me to reach out and touch a person who is standing in front of me? -A second at most.

Now take away time.

Now distance no longer exists between me and that person. It now takes zero time for me to reach out and touch them. Actually in the non-relative or omnipresent state we were never apart. We are one. There is no separation between any thing in creation. That is how we know everything. It is impossible not to know everything because there is no time dividing us from what we now know and what we would know in the future.

Example:

Here on earth it takes time to learn things. You start at birth with absolutely nothing besides our natural biological functions. Every day that time passes you learn something new. At twenty you should understand more about life than you did at twelve. Now hypothetically eliminate TIME from the age of twelve to the age of twenty. Only time was separating you from knowledge you have at twenty. No time = no separation of you from future knowledge.

Backtracking a little, this also reveals the nature of God.

Outside of time there is nothing separating me and you and every person on the planet. We are one. That is god. God uses time to divide her self/him self into many pieces. –Us.

This is necessary because God, in his omnipresent state is unable to experience any thing because there is nothing he is not. There is no other vantage point for him to see himself from. Hence the need for a place where God can “know thyself" -A place where he can see himself from a different perspective. -A place where he can know the experience the joys of actually re-discovering things again.

When you look at another human being, you are God experiencing himself from a different vantage point. So it is wise to…

Matthew 25: 40 …Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Ray, you asked:

You do admit that some of us are different than others, don’t you? 

Yes, every possible difference is humanly represented on earth.

So what word do you use to refer to those of us who are totally perfect?

They would be outside of time, or in other words, dead, or outside of the relative plane.

I know what you are getting at though. Instead of "perfect" people, I would use "enlightened" since perfection is not the goal of earth life. An enlightened person would be one who realizes that what they are experiencing here is exactly what they wanted -both the good and bad. It helps you see with new eyes. From a higher perspective even the negative things that happen can be viewed as good.

I’ll let you know something.  Neither one of us is perfect yet, but someday I hope to be.  I hope you’re working on that too.  :)

I'm trying. It takes a lot of effort to remember that we are all one.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Mar 5 2004, 11:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Mar 5 2004, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 05:54 PM

Well, that is an ........... interesting .............. testimony.  And one valid only to you.  But thanks for sharing it.  (Now, maybe it would be wise to go see a psychiatrist for treatment of your manic/depression.  You seem to be in the manic phase right now.    )

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I probably should have just bolded the things I wanted empahasis on instead speaking in capitals (yelling) I really didn't mean the yelling. Just the emphasis. Oh well, bygones.

I do find the "see a psychiatrist" thing a little ironic coming from a potential future inhabitant of the planet nearest to the star 'Kolob". On which you will share your chosen mate with about a billion sister wives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Touché

You stand corrected.

I am not, and (more than likely) never will be Mormon. Sorry. You lose!

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 6 2004, 03:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 6 2004, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Holdyourfire@Mar 5 2004, 11:22 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 05:54 PM

Well, that is an ........... interesting .............. testimony.  And one valid only to you.  But thanks for sharing it.  (Now, maybe it would be wise to go see a psychiatrist for treatment of your manic/depression.  You seem to be in the manic phase right now.    )

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I probably should have just bolded the things I wanted empahasis on instead speaking in capitals (yelling) I really didn't mean the yelling. Just the emphasis. Oh well, bygones.

I do find the "see a psychiatrist" thing a little ironic coming from a potential future inhabitant of the planet nearest to the star 'Kolob". On which you will share your chosen mate with about a billion sister wives. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Touché

You stand corrected.

I am not, and (more than likely) never will be Mormon. Sorry. You lose!

Mmmmm....crow.

[Holdyourfire]

Jenda,

Do they not use the book of Abraham in the RLDS church?

School me please.

HYF

[Jason]

The Community of Christ (the church formerly known as the RLDS) doesn't accept the Book of Abraham, nor several of the LDS D&C. They have way more revelations in their D&C, though many congregations are more protestant than "mormon" nowadays. There are ex-rlds groups who adhear to the early 20th century teachings (called Restortionists, like the Mormon Fundamentlists in Utah), while the mainstream CoC are distancing themselves slowly from all things "mormon".

J

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire@Mar 6 2004, 02:33 PM

Jenda,

Do they not use the book of Abraham in the RLDS church?

School me please.

HYF

No.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 6 2004, 02:43 PM

The Community of Christ (the church formerly known as the RLDS) doesn't accept the Book of Abraham, nor several of the LDS D&C. They have way more revelations in their D&C, though many congregations are more protestant than "mormon" nowadays. There are ex-rlds groups who adhear to the early 20th century teachings (called Restortionists, like the Mormon Fundamentlists in Utah), while the mainstream CoC are distancing themselves slowly from all things "mormon".

J

Jason, you've done homework! B)

I am one of them ex-rlds group members that adhere to the early 20th century teachings (more importantly, early 19th century (1830 to be exact)). I am a restorationist. The church lost close to a quarter of it's membership when they started stepping away from the early restoration teachings.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 5 2004, 07:10 PM

I understand. What is doctrine and what is dogma?

They are nothing to me :)