Baptism For The Dead

[jlf9999]

That is irrelevant. The point is about letting the deceased rest. You criticize LDS practice for not letting the deceased rest. I showed that if this is your argument, then I can also say that Catholic practice does not let the deceased rest since they are constantly petitioning them. This is very simple.

Also, your caricature is amusing, since it is no different than when someone converts to the Catholic faith, they have to forsake the "false" beliefs they held previously.

The LDS practice of proxy baptism is no different than someone accepting or rejecting baptism in this life.

This lady says she isn't bitter. OK. I will accept that. However the whole Catholic thing has so much history that confuses me, I suppose you have to be born Catholic to understand the nuances that I don't seem able to appreciate. Anyway, good discussion Jason.

[Guest]

To the OP:

My Catholic family did not give me permission to baptize my grandparents who have passed on. No, they didn't give the same reason madeleine gave. They gave the reason that it would be a disrespect to them especially since they died very devout Catholics.

Hope this helps.

[jlf9999]

And what would you do if Pope John Paull II popped into your bedroom with a Book of Mormon?

I would think he has been talking to the missionaries.:)

[jlf9999]

To the OP:

My Catholic family did not give me permission to baptize my grandparents who have passed on. No, they didn't give the same reason madeleine gave. They gave the reason that it would be a disrespect to them especially since they died very devout Catholics.

Hope this helps.

Thanks but I don't ask either. I am not brazen about it but I know thousands of my dead relatives on the other side welcome the work. You can't expect the non-LDS to be anything more than polite. Some are are, some are not. We knew in advance that we would be subject to a certain amount of abuse for doing what we do. I follow the rules however - strictly.

Edited April 15, 2011 by jlf9999

[Jason_J]

I'm not bitter. I'm Catholic and stand up for what I believe. I don't believe I should stand by while Mormons make the veil thin in their temple rites so that they can do ineffective dead work for my daughter.

.

Yep, we "make" the veil thin in our temple rites ...clearly you haven't learned anything from what actual Mormons say about our own beliefs. We don't "make" the veil thin. There is a difference between the veil being thin and making it thin.

Also, we Mormons believe that a person retains their free will, the ability to choose, in the afterlife. If your daughter doesn't want to accept the baptism, she doesn't have to. If she does, then she can. How evil, we Mormons thinking people can choose for themselves in the afterlife!

But believe as you must if that is the only way to critique our beliefs, or more precisely, what you think we believe.

[Guest]

This lady says she isn't bitter. OK. I will accept that. However the whole Catholic thing has so much history that confuses me, I suppose you have to be born Catholic to understand the nuances that I don't seem able to appreciate. Anyway, good discussion Jason.

Not really. The Catholic tradition is a very rich, complex, religious order that has seen their dark and bright moments of history. The LDS church is just as rich and complex but the Catholic church is 1600 or so years older.

I wasn't Catholic just because I was born to it. I had to experience a conversion just like I did when I asked to be baptized LDS. I wouldn't be LDS now if I didn't have that strong, devout, Catholic background.

You will notice that a lot of the LDS converts from the Catholic faith (or even converts to other churches from the Catholic faith) who do not look at the Catholic church with fondness are those that never experienced that conversion into Catholicism, or those that got disillusioned after conversion.

Because - although the Catholic church may not have the complete truth, it has truths nonetheless. And as the Holy Spirit teaches line upon line, precept upon precept, you can go very far in Catholic doctrine until you are ready for the fullness of the restored gospel.

So yeah, I completely understand where madeleine is coming from. I just wish she would be less bitter-sounding towards non-Catholics. Because, right or wrong, most of us who are not Catholics are following Jesus Christ the best way we know how through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And that, in itself, is a noble pursuit.

My Holy Spirit is the true Spirit, your Spirit is lying to you is a stupid game. It puts a boundary and a limitation on the powers of the Holy Spirit and how He works to help bring us back to God.

[Lilac]

I've been investigating for 2 years but was a Independent Fundamentalist Baptist for about 20 years. For whatever reason, I'm getting more laid back about a lot of things lately.

If you had done that back then, I would've BLOWN MY TOP.

I know the person meant well and I get that but it feels like "your beliefs weren't right"

When my mom died, I put out the word for no mass cards. Please, my mother does not need to be prayed into heaven by a Catholic church when we are not Catholic. Again, I know they meant well but respect my beliefs and I respect yours. As a Baptist, we believe that she went to Heaven and I don't want to be handed a Mass card saying something otherwise. Now? I'd still be mad in my head but probably be gracious and say thank you and then toss it out.

When my mother was dying of cancer, my mother in law gave me rosary beads. I said to her "thanks but my prayers are fine the way they are". I guess she meant well but it FELT like "pray my way, your way is wrong". WHY would you give a Baptist rosary beads anyway? Doesn't make sense but it was annoying.

BTW< i'm not getting in the middle of that Catholic-LDS debate above. I was just posting personal experiences. I try to be supportive/tolerant of my friend's faith and I expect the same from them. I attend baptisms, confirmations, a Hindu funeral and everything else. I am happy and respectiful of what brings them joy. Maybe we don't agree but I never ever say that.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Lilac

[jlf9999]

I've been investigating for 2 years but was a Independent Fundamentalist Baptist for about 20 years. For whatever reason, ...

I don't take things personally. It is hard to read certain posts and feel detached though because you can't know the tone in which it would have been said if the other person was talking to you in person. I just decide it was meant nicely. It is a choice I make. Some folks, who have hard feelings, chose otherwise. Like the lady said: she has been barraged by LDS family members who want to do the work for her daughter - at least that is what she said. Experience has taught all of us that feelings are just that- feelings. They are not right or wrong. They are just feelings.

If you ever decide to join the church and get that first affirmation that what we teach is just as we say, then everything starts to take on a different color. Life changes because you change. You might be surprised how quickly all that happens. A sense of love starts to take you over. It is a remarkable thing.

Edited April 16, 2011 by jlf9999

[livingstone]

This question is just for non-LDS readers.

How do you feel about the LDS practice of doing temple work for your dead ancestors? I ask because the people for whom we perform these ordinances have non-LDS relatives too.

(Sometimes in the past non-relatives names were submitted but that is not the accepted practice. If it is done currently it is not in keeping with the disclaimer submitters must acknowledge before they can submit a name. The rules have tightened up from what they were before.)

It is a waste of time because it is to late when a person is dead.

They chose their destiny while they are alive on the earth.

[Guest]

It is a waste of time because it is to late when a person is dead.

They chose their destiny while they are alive on the earth.

So, let's put this thought on a practical application.

Munggo is an Igorot who lives on the remote mountains of Banawe, Philippines. A good man, a wise father, worships the narra tree in the middle of the village because that's what his father taught him who learned it from all the fathers back through the centuries... Never even heard of Jesus Christ, let alone the Bible or any of that Atonement stuff. Of course, needless to say, he's never been asked if he would like to be baptized....

He died.

Now what? It was his choice to be a narra-tree-worshipping Igorot? What other choice did he have?

[Backroads]

It is a waste of time because it is to late when a person is dead.

They chose their destiny while they are alive on the earth.

Not always.

You are suggesting that God is not merciful by that statement. You are saying that He forces people to do evil with that statement.

[jlf9999]

Not always.

You are suggesting that God is not merciful by that statement. You are saying that He forces people to do evil with that statement.

Not so Livingstone. The bible tells us everyone will have a chance to hear the gospel preached to them and to make up their minds whether to accept or reject it. It also tells us no man may go to the Father save through Jesus Christ and baptism. God has made provisions. It is just that many traditional Christians believe in Christ, they just don't believe Him. They prefer their traditions.

[jlf9999]

It is a waste of time because it is to late when a person is dead.

They chose their destiny while they are alive on the earth.

Not so Livingstone. The bible tells us everyone will have a chance to hear the gospel preached to them and to make up their minds whether to accept or reject it. It also tells us no man may go to the Father save through Jesus Christ and baptism. God has made provisions. It is just that many traditional Christians believe in Christ, they just don't believe Him. They prefer their traditions.

Edited April 21, 2011 by jlf9999

[livingstone]

So, let's put this thought on a practical application.

Munggo is an Igorot who lives on the remote mountains of Banawe, Philippines. A good man, a wise father, worships the narra tree in the middle of the village because that's what his father taught him who learned it from all the fathers back through the centuries... Never even heard of Jesus Christ, let alone the Bible or any of that Atonement stuff. Of course, needless to say, he's never been asked if he would like to be baptized....

He died.

Now what? It was his choice to be a narra-tree-worshipping Igorot? What other choice did he have?

The Bible says in Acts 17: 30. That God overloooks ignorance, So if anyone has never heard the gospel, God won't hold them acountable.

It is only when one hears the gospel that God will hold them acountable for what they do with it.

God is a loving God And a just God, It wouldn't be fair if God condemned a person who didn't know anything about salvation.

[livingstone]

Not so Livingstone. The bible tells us everyone will have a chance to hear the gospel preached to them and to make up their minds whether to accept or reject it. It also tells us no man may go to the Father save through Jesus Christ and baptism. God has made provisions. It is just that many traditional Christians believe in Christ, they just don't believe Him. They prefer their traditions.

That is true, But only in this life. Everyone will hear the gospel in their lifetime, And it is up to them what they do with what they know.

If anyone in a remote island never hears the gospel, God will overlook their ignorance.

Acts 17: 30 says God overlooks ignorance.

[Guest]

The Bible says in Acts 17: 30. That God overloooks ignorance, So if anyone has never heard the gospel, God won't hold them acountable.

It is only when one hears the gospel that God will hold them acountable for what they do with it.

God is a loving God And a just God, It wouldn't be fair if God condemned a person who didn't know anything about salvation.

Okay, so according to this, God deliberately gave all the Igorots a pass to heaven. So, in a way, He discriminated me for allowing me to be born to a Catholic family? Because, then I will have to be baptized whereas the Igorots don't have to be?

[livingstone]

Not always.

You are suggesting that God is not merciful by that statement. You are saying that He forces people to do evil with that statement.

God in His mercy Sent Jesus to die for everyone, Those who reject His free offer of salvation have chosen their own destiny.

God gave every one a free will, And never forces people to do evil.

[Guest]

God in His mercy Sent Jesus to die for everyone, Those who reject His free offer of salvation have chosen their own destiny.

God gave every one a free will, And never forces people to do evil.

Correct. But, if God was both Just and Merciful, but do not offer this after death, then He would have found a way for ALL mankind to accept or reject Jesus while alive on earth. Yet, we know He didn't... because, you know, the Igorots never heard of Him so they can't accept nor reject him. They get a free pass! So, what makes Igorots so special?

P.S. Your interpretation of Acts 17:30 is dismal. You might want to read the entire chapter and put that verse into its proper context.

Edited April 21, 2011 by anatess

[jlf9999]

God in His mercy Sent Jesus to die for everyone, Those who reject His free offer of salvation have chosen their own destiny.

God gave every one a free will, And never forces people to do evil.

Livingstone, you are sounding more and more like a Mormon. You may be one and not know it.

[livingstone]

Correct. But, if God was both Just and Merciful, but do not offer this after death, then He would have found a way for ALL mankind to accept or reject Jesus while alive on earth. Yet, we know He didn't... because, you know, the Igorots never heard of Him so they can't accept nor reject him. They get a free pass! So, what makes Igorots so special?

P.S. Your interpretation of Acts 17:30 is dismal. You might want to read the entire chapter and put that verse into its proper context.

[1]Where doese the Bible say that God offers salvation after one dies.??

[2]God has given a way for everyone to te ceive or reject Jesus, Everyone will know the gospel before they die, Except for those in the remotest places who may never hear the gospel.

But Jesus said the gospel will be preached in all the world before the end.

God has found a way for all to receive or reject, WHY DID YOU SAY HE HASN'T??

[3] I think you should take a look at Acts 17: 30 and tell me what it says,

ARE YOU CALLING GOD A LIAR.

[livingstone]

Livingstone, you are sounding more and more like a Mormon. You may be one and not know it.

I am a person who believes the Bible and eccepts the truth in it.

[Guest]

[1]Where doese the Bible say that God offers salvation after one dies.??

See 1 Corinthians 15 (especially verse 29). Paul uses the practice of baptisms for the dead to prove that there is a resurrection.

But, proper interpretation of Malachi 4 (especially verses 5-6) gives you the foundation for salvation after one dies coupled with Hebrews 11 (especially verse 40). It is basically telling you that Elijah will be sent by God in the fullness of the dispensation of times to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and their children to their fathers... or, in layman terms - that all generations of men will be sealed together in the last dispensation because, as implied by Hebrews 11:40 - it is together with the living that the dead may be made perfect.

This sealing has to be available for the dead - how else are you going to seal Abraham/Noah/David/etc. etc. to all the generations until the end times? Otherwise, as Malachi 4:6 warns - we are indeed cursed.

[2]God has given a way for everyone to te ceive or reject Jesus, Everyone will know the gospel before they die, Except for those in the remotest places who may never hear the gospel.

But Jesus said the gospel will be preached in all the world before the end.

Livingston... God has given a way for everyone to accept or reject Jesus YES. THERE IS NO EXCEPT about it. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE that says there is an EXCEPTION. When God said everyone, He meant EVERYONE. YES, the gospel will be preached to all the world before the end!

But... PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY DIED! And it's not the end yet! And they haven't heard of Jesus Christ!

God has found a way for all to receive or reject, WHY DID YOU SAY HE HASN'T??

I never said He hasn't! YOU said He gave exceptions for the Igorots - because, they died before they even heard of JESUS! No He didn't! There are no exceptions!

And that's why I've been trying to tell you... God gave a way for Igorots to accept or reject Jesus Christ after they die. They are taught the gospel after death. They are baptized by a living proxy and they are then asked to accept or reject that baptism. This will be accomplished for all mankind from Adam to the last man on earth "before the end".

[3] I think you should take a look at Acts 17: 30 and tell me what it says,

ARE YOU CALLING GOD A LIAR.

I didn't call God a liar. I only said your interpretation of that verse is lacking.

[Jason_J]

Acts 17: 30 says God overlooks ignorance.

No it doesn't.

Acts 17:30 KJV

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

Acts 17:30 NIV

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

[Guest]

P.S.

It's probably easier if you just go ahead and read what LDS baptism for the dead is all about.

Here's something that explains it:

Baptisms for the Dead

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith Chapter 41: Becoming Saviors on Mount Zion

[Guest]

I am a person who believes the Bible and eccepts the truth in it.

Yep, you're a Mormon... as far as it is interpreted correctly. :)